2008 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION: Obama (D-IL) vs. McCain (R-AZ)

[TheNiche]

Because John McCain represents a vote for unilateralism and a diminished US presence in the world. Obama represents the possibility that the US returns to its position as leader of the free world. John McCain is the 70s. Obama is Kennedy and Reagan. Those two presidents were presidents of the world. Bush and McCain aim to be presidents of 51% of the US. Bush has shown that foreign policy fails miserably when foreigners disagree with you. If this election is REALLY about foreign policy and leader of the free world status, then the election is already over. Obama won it this week.

Less US presence in the world!? Is that a promise?

How has our foreign policy failed? Iran continues threatening us, and I can live with that. Meanwhile formerly-communist China has become one of our most important trade partners, N. Korea is ditching their nuclear weapons program (by way of multilateral talks, which John Kerry lambasted and said wouldn't work), Lybia has opened up, and nobody of consequence is threatening war or declaring sanctions against us, all the while Venezuala is sporadically giving away energy to our poor. Yay, America.

So what if we aren't popular? We're respected. That's what matters. If other countries figure out that we care what they think about us, they'll know that they can walk all over us.

[TheNiche]

The Jews don't hate Germany anymore. And Germans don't like Hitler anymore.

I can guarantee you beyond a shadow of a doubt that I spend more time around Jews than you do. Many still really dislike Germany, even generations after the war.

It's 2008.

Yeah, you'd think that after so many years, Hilter jokes would be more accepted and better understood.

[RedScare]

I can guarantee you beyond a shadow of a doubt that I spend more time around Jews than you do. Many still really dislike Germany, even generations after the war.

Yeah, some of my best friends are Black, too. Your lack of awareness and understanding of the world can be stunning sometimes, given your intelligence in other matters.

BTW, I think it is pretty cool that you used as examples of respect for the US, all of the changes in Bush foreign policy TOWARD diplomacy, rather than away from it. These are Obama positions, not McCain. Ask your neo-con friends how impressed they are with your examples.

[Trae]

Yeah, you'd think that after so many years, Hilter jokes would be more accepted and better understood.

Maybe if they were funny.

[BryanS]

Ah, yes. Aisle. You know what I meant. And I'm actually a little surprised that a whole aisle full of cheese wouldn't creep you out too.

Then I guess that Central Market must really creep you out. Cheese everywhere. Big wheels of it. Stinky mess. But people don't seem to be too bothered by it...

[TheNiche]

Yeah, some of my best friends are Black, too. Your lack of awareness and understanding of the world can be stunning sometimes, given your intelligence in other matters.

Seriously, my boss would never buy a BMW because its a German-owned company. Whether based in reason or not (and I personally think not) here remains anti-German sentiment in parts of the Jewish community.

BTW, I think it is pretty cool that you used as examples of respect for the US, all of the changes in Bush foreign policy TOWARD diplomacy, rather than away from it. These are Obama positions, not McCain. Ask your neo-con friends how impressed they are with your examples.

Wait...so what was your point again? I don't follow. I thought you were trying to say that recent foreign policy was counterproductive.

And btw, FWIW I think both candidates are frauds and genuinely dislike them. I only prefer McCain because I think that he is the less manipulative or convincing fraud and because (unlike most Americans, apparently) I want somebody who isn't very good at convincing the general public that getting sodomized by Washington really ought to be enjoyed. I also think that he'll be less able to effect change, and I prefer no change for the coming four years while we wait it out for a new set of candidates to the prospect of vast change which may ultimately impede the ability of people to become candidates in the first place.

Another FWIW: I'm only giving so much favoritism towards McCain because of the preponderance of intellectually dishonest attacks on him. Many are well-deserved, others are purely rhetorical...and it is those that I take delight in countering, whatever the cause may be.

Then I guess that Central Market must really creep you out. Cheese everywhere. Big wheels of it. Stinky mess. But people don't seem to be too bothered by it...

It does creep me out. And the people that aren't creeped out by it bother me.

[Trae]

[BryanS]

Less US presence in the world!? Is that a promise?

How has our foreign policy failed? Iran continues threatening us, and I can live with that. Meanwhile formerly-communist China has become one of our most important trade partners, N. Korea is ditching their nuclear weapons program (by way of multilateral talks, which John Kerry lambasted and said wouldn't work), Lybia has opened up, and nobody of consequence is threatening war or declaring sanctions against us, all the while Venezuala is sporadically giving away energy to our poor. Yay, America.

So what if we aren't popular? We're respected. That's what matters. If other countries figure out that we care what they think about us, they'll know that they can walk all over us.

How un-Lou Dobbs of you... You'd have a hard time convincing most people of that, regardless of their economy. I would love to hear John McCain, Bush, the Republican party actually put that in their platform...

[TheNiche]

Maybe if they were funny.

Look at where his arm is and tell me you if you didn't chuckle a bit.

...of course, it may be for nought if your high school classes overlooked the gestures associated with facism in addition to the killer of the killer of JFK, as was made apparent a month or two back.

How un-Lou Dobbs of you...

You just made my day!

[Trae]

Look at where his arm is and tell me you if you didn't chuckle a bit.

...of course, it may be for nought if your high school classes overlooked the gestures associated with facism in addition to the killer of the killer of JFK, as was made apparent a month or two back.

k.

Has absolutely nothing to do with Obama at all, but I know what you're trying to do. You haven't even responded to my first post yet.

[BryanS]

It does creep me out. And the people that aren't creeped out by it bother me.

Well. That's going to be a whole lot of people then. You could have a latent, unreconciled, aversion to dairy products... Now a whole aisle of cottage cheese... that would be a different story.

[RedScare]

Seriously, my boss would never buy a BMW because its a German-owned company. Whether based in reason or not (and I personally think not) here remains anti-German sentiment in parts of the Jewish community.

Wow, you really are using how many Jews you know as part of your argument? Should I tell you about my Jewish law partner's BMW? Should I bring my yarmulke that I wore in his wedding to Happy Days Lounge to show my jewish bonafides? Better yet, maybe I should invite your boss to the occasional foreign policy discussions that all of my jewish friends and I have (BTW, they all support Obama). Of course, your boss will have to learn to drink Russian vodka, as this crowd all imigrated from Ukraine and Russia.

Better yet, how about I just remind you that I don't choose my president on whether your boss likes BMWs.

[houstonmacbro]

Well. That's going to be a whole lot of people then. You could have a latent, unreconciled, aversion to dairy products... Now a whole aisle of cottage cheese... that would be a different story.

Pillows frighten me.

[TJones]

Red, why is it that you and other high ranking democrats around here say that we shouldn't be in Iraq, then you compare Obama to Kennedy and Reagan saying we should have an INCREASED presence around the world? Are you guys the same people that say the world "HATES" us ? You think by Obama using Reagan's techniques for world domination will make the world opinion towards us change ? BTW, I happen to be of the opinion that the world loves us, otherwise, why would all of them be trying to get here ?

First, Kennedy almost caused WW3 and Reagan got the Berlin Wall torn down and ended the Coldwar. I'm not sure where you think the comparison between them lies.

Secondly, aren't Dems. the ones who think we SHOULDN'T be the police of the world ? So, what exactly is wrong with a diminished presence ? We have plenty on our plate here at home to deal with, so why keep spreading ourselves thin, like the Dems. claim we have done with our military ? Oh, I guess you are buying into that whole "Civilian Force" deal ?

SO, it looks like you are saying Obama is not a typical peace loving treehugger liberal, but in fact a Warmongering, Nuclear missle proliferating, Dempublican ? A new species of politician who is pulling the wool over everyone's eyes on the Democratic side ?

I, of course, believe in walking quietly and carrying a big stick, just like Reagan did. You are right on one thing Red, diplomacy doesn't work with maniacal, delusional dictators or fanatical Muslims. These types only understand one thing. If you F' with us, we won't only bury YOU, we will bury your wife, your children, your childrens children, and their children. That is the way THEY play the game Red, and they have to believe that we are willing to play it the same way. That is the way Reagan played it for 8 years. The Russians didn't call him Ronnie Raygun for nothing, they knew better, and the rest of the world followed suit.

SO, if Obama is gonna be like Reagan in that regard, then by all means, he's the guy for the job. If Obama's plan, like Kennedy with Cuba & Russia, is to create a blockade and point all our nukes at Iran and N.Korea and gives them the "cease and desist or else" ultimatum, then by all means, Obama is the man. One thing holding him back though, Pelosi and the gang, they like diplomacy too much, much more than McCain. So, your Obama pipedream about him being the answer to all America's problems is just that, a pipedream, because I just can't see a Socialist like Obama taking orders from the gang and being their puppet, because Obama wants to be the puppeteer. Obama has too much ego for it to go any other way. I don't see him playing chess with nukes like Reagan, he doesn't have the backbone for it. I see Obama leaning much more towards the teachings of Mao for his answers.

BTW Niche, Jews only care about the Neo-Nazis, they could give a rat's patooty about the Beer guzzling, Sauerkraut slurping, Strudel hording, BMW driving, rest of that country. There are no "walls" between Israel and Germany, trust that. Jews are more worried about the amount of Germans in Brazil and Peru than they are in the actual country of Germany. Obama was simply using propaganda to further his agenda, I bet he and his cronies were pissed that he couldn't get the photo-op right on the grounds where the wall used to stand.

[TheNiche]

Has absolutely nothing to do with Obama at all, but I know what you're trying to do.

Sure it does. He was doing something ironic and funny. Its nothing serious, but Obama is clearly the one in the photo.

So far as I'm concerned, if you can't make fun of something, that something is worthy of suspicion. Really, Trae, lighten up.

EDIT: Interestingly, I had Glenn Beck on in the other room and overheard a rant of his on this subject. He didn't point out the salute, but did point out the irony that Obama would be so articulately and popularly pushing a pacifist foreign policy beneath a monument commemorating German victory in war...which was moved to its present location by Hitler and used as Nazi iconography...and that the angel's name is 'Victory'...and that "sieg heil" translates to "hail victory"...and I'll add that the statue was commemorated immediately following the Franco-Prussian War, which is what set the stage for both world wars. Combine all that with the photo you posted and we've got material worthy of Jon Stewart. I can't speak for you, but it cracks me up.

You haven't even responded to my first post yet.

You started the thread, and post #1 wasn't exactly controversial. I'd be happy to respond to your first post, only I'm not sure what's worth responding to.

Well. That's going to be a whole lot of people then. You could have a latent, unreconciled, aversion to dairy products... Now a whole aisle of cottage cheese... that would be a different story.

No, that's a generalization. A whole asile of cheese, specifically, is disconcerting to me. And especially those who shop in that asile.

[memebag]

I'm blown away daily by the masses that think this guy is going to solve our issues. Of course if you like tax and spend politicians, he's your man.

What other choice do we have? The borrow and spend politicians? I'll tax the fiscally responsible option every time.

[TheNiche]

Wow, you really are using how many Jews you know as part of your argument? Should I tell you about my Jewish law partner's BMW? Should I bring my yarmulke that I wore in his wedding to Happy Days Lounge to show my jewish bonafides? Better yet, maybe I should invite your boss to the occasional foreign policy discussions that all of my jewish friends and I have (BTW, they all support Obama). Of course, your boss will have to learn to drink Russian vodka, as this crowd all imigrated from Ukraine and Russia.

Better yet, how about I just remind you that I don't choose my president on whether your boss likes BMWs.

A whole lot. Certainly an insufficient number to claim that I have a statistically significant random sample of the whole of the American Jewish population (much less break it out by country of ancestral origin), but enough to make some general observations and to share some insightful anecdotes. That, and for some reason Jewish women and black women seem to really like me in ways that women of other ethnicities just don't...haven't figured out why.

[Gary]

What other choice do we have? The borrow and spend politicians? I'll tax the fiscally responsible option every time.

So your saying that the dems are fiscally responsible?

[RedScare]

So your saying that the dems are fiscally responsible?

A quick glance at which presidents have accumulated the most debt will give you the answer that you are looking for.

[Deut28Thirteen]

I don't think the world hates us but they sure don't like us. The 1st thing I noticed when watching Obama is the American flags waving by some of those 200,000 plus people watching his speech. I believe that Obama can change the view of America through out the world because he does have a meassage of hope and change. I hate when people say thats all he is because American history shows that if you have a little hope then you can make big change. I think the world outside of America is more ready for change than Americans. Change means you have to look at youeself and see what you have done wrong and I think too many Americans are too proud to admit they are wrong.

[TheNiche]

Change means you have to look at youeself and see what you have done wrong and I think too many Americans are too proud to admit they are wrong.

Perhaps because they look at themselves and see what they've done right?

[barracuda]

So your saying that the dems are fiscally responsible?

He's right (although I'm not sure that's what he actually meant). The democratic presidents have been more fiscally responsible than republican presidents since Reagan. The contrast between Clinton, who balanced the budget (actually, a surplus), and G. W. Bush, who quickly turned that surplus into a deficit, only cements this new reality. Tax and spend Republicans.

1950-2007 National Debt Graph: http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

[TheNiche]

He's right (although I'm not sure that's what he actually meant). The democratic presidents have been more fiscally responsible than republican presidents since Reagan. The contrast between Clinton, who balanced the budget (actually, a surplus), and G. W. Bush, who quickly turned that surplus into a deficit, only cements this new reality. Tax and spend Republicans.

1950-2007 National Debt Graph: http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

I don't disagree with the general sentiment, however I would point out that the U.S. is the world's debtor of first resort. That, in combination with other factors influencing the interest rate on treasuries, means that our cost of capital is extremely low. And in the same line of thought as that it may make a great deal of sense for a corporation that has access to inexpensive debt to take on that debt and buy back shares of its own stock (with an effect similar to issuing a special dividend), so too does it make sense for the U.S. to finance a large proportion of its government spending with inexpensive foreign debt. Its a terrific thing and should be celebrated. Clinton's balanced budget, in contrast, was foolhardy.

That doesn't excuse the higher levels of government spending! I'll be the first to grant you that.

[RedScare]

I don't disagree with the general sentiment, however I would point out that the U.S. is the world's debtor of first resort. That, in combination with other factors influencing the interest rate on treasuries, means that our cost of capital is extremely low. And in the same line of thought as that it may make a great deal of sense for a corporation that has access to inexpensive debt to take on that debt and buy back shares of its own stock (with an effect similar to issuing a special dividend), so too does it make sense for the U.S. to finance a large proportion of its government spending with inexpensive foreign debt. Its a terrific thing and should be celebrated. Clinton's balanced budget, in contrast, was foolhardy.

That doesn't excuse the higher levels of government spending! I'll be the first to grant you that.

Inexpensive debt? When upwards of one-third the price of oil is attributed to the weak dollar, a weakness due to our massive debt, it is hard to call that debt inexpensive. More so than oil, America is addicted to debt. And debtors have little clout. The bankers do. While SOME debt is not bad, and is even advisable in certain situations, the US fiscal policy mirrors US consumers, which is borrow til you're bankrupt.

And that policy is pushed by Republicans, not Democrats.

[barracuda]

I don't disagree with the general sentiment, however I would point out that the U.S. is the world's debtor of first resort. That, in combination with other factors influencing the interest rate on treasuries, means that our cost of capital is extremely low. And in the same line of thought as that it may make a great deal of sense for a corporation that has access to inexpensive debt to take on that debt and buy back shares of its own stock (with an effect similar to issuing a special dividend), so too does it make sense for the U.S. to finance a large proportion of its government spending with inexpensive foreign debt. Its a terrific thing and should be celebrated. Clinton's balanced budget, in contrast, was foolhardy.

That doesn't excuse the higher levels of government spending! I'll be the first to grant you that.

I don't think financing makes much sense if it can be avoided. President Bush could have vetoed many pieces of legislation that favored republicans and their constituents. Much of this spending was not necessary. In particular, the invasion of Iraq, which is now seen as a colossal mistake, is a huge financial sinkhole that may take years or decades to recover from. McCain seems to want a prolonged presence in Iraq, only continuing our expensive "nation building" efforts that Bush himself railed against when he was running for office.

[memebag]

So your saying that the dems are fiscally responsible?

Yeah, that's what "tax and spend" means. Governments spend money. The fiscally responsible ones spend money they take in from taxes. The irresponsible ones accumulate massive deficits. They're sort of like people.

[KinkaidAlum]

Inexpensive debt? When upwards of one-third the price of oil is attributed to the weak dollar, a weakness due to our massive debt, it is hard to call that debt inexpensive. More so than oil, America is addicted to debt. And debtors have little clout. The bankers do. While SOME debt is not bad, and is even advisable in certain situations, the US fiscal policy mirrors US consumers, which is borrow til you're bankrupt.

And that policy is pushed by Republicans, not Democrats.

This is the BEST response yet.

Of course, the neocons think this is all just in our heads. Meanwhile, we are about to hit some scandals that will make the S&L bailout look like the minor leagues.

I simply do not understand how people can continue to spout out about the "tax and spend" Democrats. The FACTS are there for anyone to see. I guess it's just easier to listen to talk radio DRUG ADDICTS and Fox News Pundits tell you what to think...

[Trae]

Sure it does. He was doing something ironic and funny. Its nothing serious, but Obama is clearly the one in the photo.

So far as I'm concerned, if you can't make fun of something, that something is worthy of suspicion. Really, Trae, lighten up.

EDIT: Interestingly, I had Glenn Beck on in the other room and overheard a rant of his on this subject. He didn't point out the salute, but did point out the irony that Obama would be so articulately and popularly pushing a pacifist foreign policy beneath a monument commemorating German victory in war...which was moved to its present location by Hitler and used as Nazi iconography...and that the angel's name is 'Victory'...and that "sieg heil" translates to "hail victory"...and I'll add that the statue was commemorated immediately following the Franco-Prussian War, which is what set the stage for both world wars. Combine all that with the photo you posted and we've got material worthy of Jon Stewart. I can't speak for you, but it cracks me up.

[sevfiv]

Everyone knows that those cute "Calvin peeing on ____" stickers are purchased by intelligent consumers and are the most clever and poignant forms of commentary out there

[houstonmacbro]

The other one says "Warning: I'm a bitter Christian clinging to my gun!"

Hilarious. I love it.