Since when is a mall a "Town Center?"

[sarahiki]

I kind of hate this trend of building "town centers" that are really just malls. Okay, full disclosure: I've only been to one, once, briefly. So, am I wrong? Do these include anything other than restaurants and retail? Even if they include some residential, I don't think that makes it a town center.

Here's my list of what anything claiming to be a "town center" should be required to include. PLease feel free to add to the wish list:

1. Public library

2. a nice park/green space with benches, a pond, and ducks

3. Bicycle racks

4. Sidewalks

5. Trees

[TheNiche]

A "town center" occurs where a mall developer wants to forgo the cost of a roof over common areas and constant air conditioning, but at the same time needs to continue to draw an upscale clientele. By calling it a "town center", there remains sufficient pretension that white people will shop there.

[KatieDidIt]

By calling it a "town center", there remains sufficient pretension that white people will shop there.

So true.

I don't mind them as long as they don't try to make it look like something out a 1950's movie.

[sarahiki]

A "town center" occurs where a mall developer wants to forgo the cost of a roof over common areas and constant air conditioning, but at the same time needs to continue to draw an upscale clientele. By calling it a "town center", there remains sufficient pretension that white people will shop there.

Yes, and I suppose that those same people can feel like, instead of just shopping, they are actually engaging in some sort of social, community-based activity, because they are going to the town center.

But doesn't anyone want to be idealistic? What would you put in the "town center?"

[KatieDidIt]

Yes, and I suppose that those same people can feel like, instead of just shopping, they are actually engaging in some sort of social, community-based activity, because they are going to the town center.

But doesn't anyone want to be idealistic? What would you put in the "town center?"

Well we live within a mile of the new CityCenter and T&C village and they are making life a one stop shop. Gourmet restuarants,Spa, Lifetime fitness, 5 star hotel, Randalls Flagship,Dry Cleaner, rumored speciality market, Post office, bookstore, movie theater, $$$$ retail and pretty much everything that keeps a house and family going.

A library branch would be nice in there though..but that's a county thing and they can't afford CityCentre. Having Niemans return would be a perk. Or a Nordstroms go in.

Not that finding everything you need within a mile of your house is hard in Houston...at all. But this particular one does make it a one stop, park once, shopping experience within minutes of home.

Edited April 8, 2008 by KatieDidIt

[TheNiche]

Yes, and I suppose that those same people can feel like, instead of just shopping, they are actually engaging in some sort of social, community-based activity, because they are going to the town center.

But doesn't anyone want to be idealistic? What would you put in the "town center?"

If I wanted to make any money, a Neiman Marcus, an Apple store, a La Madeline restaurant, and the like.

If the City will pay some significant price, they can be a tenant too, but I'm going to require that any library be stocked with Apple computers on the first floor and that all the books be out of sight. Otherwise, it makes the place appear too stodgy and uncool, elements that don't go well with money and pretension.

[ProHouston]

A "town center" occurs where a mall developer wants to forgo the cost of a roof over common areas and constant air conditioning, but at the same time needs to continue to draw an upscale clientele. By calling it a "town center", there remains sufficient pretension that white people will shop there.

Why single out "white" people?

[editor]

Malls became "town centers" back in the 80's as far as I can remember.

Before the driving age, people would walk to and gather in the town center. When everyone got behind the wheel of an automobile, malls became the de facto gathering and socializing place for the new generations (mine included).

It's why you see Mexican girls being paraded around the Galleria for that big 14th or 15th birthday celebration they have. Back in Mexico, their families would have promenaded them around the zocalo. The Galleria is as close as Houston has to a cultural town center. That's true of a lot of cities, not just Houston.

So even if a developer calls their project a "Towne Centre," it still won't be able to compete. It's just a name.

[Jax]

2. a nice park/green space with benches, a pond, and ducks

Yes, ducks are definitely required to make it a true town center.

[UrbaNerd]

A "town center" occurs where a mall developer wants to forgo the cost of a roof over common areas and constant air conditioning, but at the same time needs to continue to draw an upscale clientele. By calling it a "town center", there remains sufficient pretension that white people will shop there.

http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.wordpress.com/

[TheNiche]

Why single out "white" people?

Because whether Simon or General Growth are willing to acknowledge it or not, new Town Centers don't get built anywhere except near where affluent white people live.

[crunchtastic]

Because whether Simon or General Growth are willing to acknowledge it or not, new Town Centers don't get built anywhere except near where affluent white people live.

and as evidenced by the lack of a dollar store, auto parts store, laundromat or coin op car wash at town centres.

[bachanon]

what mall is a town center?

I don't mind them as long as they don't try to make it look like something out a 1950's movie.

what town center is made to look like a 1950's movie?

personally, i couldn't care less what they call it. i'm jazzed that developers are seeing the need for public spaces that draw people together (and concentrating growth). growing up in conroe, going to private school, the only social gatherings took place at church or school. living near the woodlands "town center" provides constant social interaction. i'm running into neighbors, family and coworkers everywhere i go. it's great. free concerts, festivals, public events galore. i love it. waterway square opens this month. yet another place for people to gather. twenty story condo tower, more mid rise offices. constant activity.

yes, i drank the kool aid and i love it.

[memebag]

i'm jazzed that developers are seeing the need for public spaces...

... only they aren't public spaces. They are private property.

[Subdude]

personally, i couldn't care less what they call it. i'm jazzed that developers are seeing the need for public spaces that draw people together (and concentrating growth). growing up in conroe, going to private school, the only social gatherings took place at church or school. living near the woodlands "town center" provides constant social interaction. i'm running into neighbors, family and coworkers everywhere i go. it's great. free concerts, festivals, public events galore.

Yes, but they are still basically malls without roofs, right? Malls have always served many of the same functions. We haven't come too far from the days of Gulfgate and Meyerland!

Btw, if you really want to sound like a developer, it should be "town centre".

[RedScare]

... only they aren't public spaces. They are private property.

...as evidenced by the fact that the town center owners ran off the kids who "socially interacted" in their "public spaces".

[sarahiki]

[ the woodlands "town center" provides constant social interaction. i'm running into neighbors, family and coworkers everywhere i go. it's great. free concerts, festivals, public events galore. i love it. waterway square opens this month. yet another place for people to gather. twenty story condo tower, more mid rise offices. constant activity.

yes, i drank the kool aid and i love it.

See, concerts, festivals, etc... that's great. That sounds like a "town center." I don't think you drank the kool aid. But when I read about, for example, "Shadow Creek Ranch Town Center," from what I can tell, it's just a glorified strip mall. Again, if I'm wrong, great. But I think this concept, which it sounds like has been applied well in some places, is getting tagged on as a name to development in some areas that is strictly retail.

[KatieDidIt]

I'll be curious to see how the CityCentre goes over in Houston for one major reason, most burbs that have a center have residents that are willing to drive to 20 minutes to get to it because that's all there is.

Houstonians don't NEED to drive 20 minutes to get to everything a "center" will provide. Is it a perk? Yes. Is it a needed thing? Not really. I think it the sucess of centers in Houston will have to do the residents within a 5 minute drive of it. Does this mean more centers? One for every part of town? Probably.

Edited April 8, 2008 by KatieDidIt

[bachanon]

i agree. i think the success of places like the woodlands town center are being capitalized on by lesser developers. the woodlands town center is not one development but many in a specifically planned location. performing arts, museums, shopping, restaurants, library, offices, hotels, residential, government offices, hospitals and so on. market street and the mall are simply located in the greater "town center".

i chuckle every time i pass by shadow creek ranch on 288. the development around memorial city and "city centre" have more potential as town centers, IMO. if they could connect the two with a some smashing public spaces...........but i digress. a mall or shopping center does not a "town center" make.

[20thStDad]

I am unfortunate enough to have had my office move from the Galleria to the Almeda wasteland near (just east of on 2234) SCR, and I think everything down here is just a shopping center. I hate it. This area has no character whatsoever. Only mud and traffic lights that take forever. And landfills. I did hear something about a water lights district (?) that sounded neat, but I think it's basically another shopping center with restaurants, but on a canal. Maybe I need to read up on that, could be something more interesting.

[KatieDidIt]

i agree. i think the success of places like the woodlands town center are being capitalized on by lesser developers. the woodlands town center is not one development but many in a specifically planned location. performing arts, museums, shopping, restaurants, library, offices, hotels, residential, government offices, hospitals and so on. market street and the mall are simply located in the greater "town center".

i chuckle every time i pass by shadow creek ranch on 288. the development around memorial city and "city centre" have more potential as town centers, IMO. if they could connect the two with a some smashing public spaces...........but i digress. a mall or shopping center does not a "town center" make.

Bach, I think MCM and CityCentre are starting to blend a little, with Memorial Herman and Memorial Middle school really only being the major structures seperating them. But I think it will all be considered the same area at some point. We are talking a mile at the most between them.

There are parks (Bendwood is one of them) that are going to be redeveloped right by CityCentre and some are suggesting a tram/trolley like TW has between them. But we'll see. It's a very urban version of a Town Center.

[bachanon]

I'll be curious to see how the CityCentre goes over in Houston for one major reason, most burbs that have a center have residents that are willing to drive to 20 minutes to get to it because that's all there is.

Houstonians don't NEED to drive 20 minutes to get to everything a "center" will provide. Is it a perk? Yes. Is it a needed thing? Not really. I think it the sucess of centers in Houston will have to do the residents within a 5 minute drive of it. Does this mean more centers? One for every part of town? Probably.

yes, but what if these town centers provide a format for concentrated growth? great if they pop up everywhere; each part of town having a more defined identity with social events and community activities.

i used to go in to houston for everything. i don't have to now. all of my needs are met here. isn't that a good thing? of course, i miss the menil, mo mong, nippon and zimm's. there are some things you can't replicate.

[KatieDidIt]

yes, but what if these town centers provide a format for concentrated growth? great if they pop up everywhere; each part of town having a more defined identity with social events and community activities.

i used to go in to houston for everything. i don't have to now. all of my needs are met here. isn't that a good thing? of course, i miss the menil, mo mong, nippon and zimm's. there are some things you can't replicate.

I think each part of Houston already has a "defined identity." Its urban here, its unrealistic to expect people to hold hands and skip through the daisies together at "community activites." Too many weirdos we don't want to hold hands with.

[bachanon]

I think each part of Houston already has a "defined identity." Its urban here, its unrealistic to expect people to hold hands and skip through the daisies together at "community activites." Too many weirdos we don't want to hold hands with.

LMAO. cumbaya my lord, cumbaya!

[memebag]

i used to go in to houston for everything. i don't have to now. all of my needs are met here.

Where do you go if you need to protest something?

[bachanon]

i protest nothing.

[musicman]

i protest nothing.

going into houston it sounds like it.

yes, but what if these town centers provide a format for concentrated growth? great if they pop up everywhere; each part of town having a more defined identity with social events and community activities.

living in the burb is the epitome of social interaction. they all hang out together with their children playing at each other's house, playing teeball together and then out to dinner at chili's.

[memebag]

i protest nothing.

Do you need to see anyone else protesting?

[bachanon]

huh?

[KatieDidIt]

living in the burb is the epitome of social interaction. they all hang out together with their children playing at each other's house, playing teeball together and then out to dinner at chili's.

Urban families do this too. The major exception being the Chilis part and the fact we trek to other neighborhoods to do this with families we really, really like. We don't have to be BFF's with the direct neighbors just because we live there. We don't have to even talk to our neighbors and its still socially acceptable and not an inch scandalous.

Edited April 8, 2008 by KatieDidIt

[musicman]

Urban families do this too. The major exception being the Chilis part and the fact we trek to other neighborhoods to do this with families we really, really like. We don't have to be BFF's with the direct neighbors just because we live there. We don't have to even talk to our neighbors and its still socially acceptable and not an inch scandalous.

not sure driving to another neighborhood is being social. seems kinda snobbish.

[KatieDidIt]

not sure driving to another neighborhood is being social. seems kinda snobbish.

Nah, not if many of your neighbors are 65+ and many of your friends of 20 years live in various different parts of West Houston. We have a couple families in the hood we enjoy, we just don't ONLY socialize with them and its "ok" not to only socialize with them.

In burb life we got major crap for having parties and not inviting everyone on the street, just because they lived there. We had other parties that involved the nieghborhood, its just we felt every single party we had didn't have to involve them.

Edited April 8, 2008 by KatieDidIt

[woolie]

What a horrifying vision of the future. Oh, wait, these things already exist?

Here's what I think about the privatization of public space.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

[Trae]

If I wanted to make any money, a Neiman Marcus, an Apple store, a La Madeline restaurant, and the like.

If the City will pay some significant price, they can be a tenant too, but I'm going to require that any library be stocked with Apple computers on the first floor and that all the books be out of sight. Otherwise, it makes the place appear too stodgy and uncool, elements that don't go well with money and pretension.

You ever seen Victoria Gardens in Rancho Cucamonga, California (Inland Empire)? If you haven't, you should probably look it up. Has a library, two Macy's, AMC Theaters, Apple Store, some other city buildings, etc., all in one development.

[memebag]

huh?

You said you don't need to protest. I'm asking if you need to see other people protest, or if you're OK spending all of your time in private space, protected by private security guards from public free speech.

[TheNiche]

Here's what I think about the privatization of public space.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

So mall developers are the U.S. Congress, now? How does that work?

[dalparadise]

Just a note -- Sugar Land Town Center includes mall-type stores, a Starbucks, restaurants and the like, but it also has a large hotel, Sugar Land City Hall, mixed-use apartment/office/retail buildings and a new 8-story headquarters for Minute Maid. Seems pretty much a "town center" to me.

There is a mall across the street from it for reference, though.

[musicman]

Nah, not if many of your neighbors are 65+

take advantage of the senior discount.

[woolie]

So mall developers are the U.S. Congress, now? How does that work?

You know exactly what I meant.

[TheNiche]

You know exactly what I meant.

You cited the U.S. Constitution in a manner in which it does not apply. I haven't a clue what you mean.

[RedScare]

You said you don't need to protest. I'm asking if you need to see other people protest, or if you're OK spending all of your time in private space, protected by private security guards from public free speech.

He watches protesters on TV, just like other freedom loving Americans.

Woolie (and memebag) does bring up a good point. Since all of the "township" of the Woodlands is run by the Woodlands Town Center now, does that mean that all Woodlands public space is now considered private for 1st Amendment purposes? I realize that no one ever protests there, but what if, say, a Democrat got elected in Montgomery County, and people suddenly felt the urge? Could Town Center security run them off in all of the parks the way they can in Town Center? Any Woodlands government scholars out there?

Edited April 9, 2008 by RedScare

[memebag]

Woolie (and memebag) does bring up a good point. Since all of the "township" of the Woodlands is run by the Woodlands Town Center now, does that mean that all Woodlands public space is now considered private for 1st Amendment purposes? I realize that no one ever protests there, but what if, say, a Democrat got elected in Montgomery County, and people suddenly felt the urge? Could Town Center security run them off in all of the parks the way they can in Town Center? Any Woodlands government scholars out there?

I have a similar concern about Sugar Land's city hall. It's surrounded by private property. I assume I could protest there, but would I be allowed to drag my big papier-mache effigy of Tom Delay up N. Town Center Blvd? There's no way to access city hall without crossing private property or using private roads. Does anyone else see the irony in a shopping center that tries to cloak itself in a fantasy Americana past while being so blatantly un-American?

Google Map of Sugar Land City Hall

You know exactly what I meant.

I don't know what you meant. What did you mean?

[westguy76]

You said you don't need to protest. I'm asking if you need to see other people protest, or if you're OK spending all of your time in private space, protected by private security guards from public free speech.

This is where I go to see other people protest:

zombietime

that photoblog is as close as I want to get to protestors, and in some cases TOO close.

Who knows some of these *#!jobs probably live down the street from me in suburbia, and thats OK.

[memebag]

Who knows some of these *#!jobs probably live down the street from me in suburbia, and thats OK.

... as long as they don't interfere with shopping! SHOP! SHOP! SHOP!

[dalparadise]

I have a similar concern about Sugar Land's city hall. It's surrounded by private property. I assume I could protest there, but would I be allowed to drag my big papier-mache effigy of Tom Delay up N. Town Center Blvd? There's no way to access city hall without crossing private property or using private roads. Does anyone else see the irony in a shopping center that tries to cloak itself in a fantasy Americana past while being so blatantly un-American?

Google Map of Sugar Land City Hall

I don't know what you meant. What did you mean?

Assuming Tom Delay was still in office, why would you protest him at Sugar Land City Hall?

Another thing -- if Sugar Land Town Center's streets are all private property, why are there City of Sugar Land parking meters all along them? Are they enforceable?

Edited April 10, 2008 by dalparadise

[memebag]

Assuming Tom Delay was still in office, why would you protest him at Sugar Land City Hall?

Because I'm a nutjob, like all protestors.

Another thing -- if Sugar Land Town Center's streets are all private property, why are there City of Sugar Land parking meters all along them? Are they enforceable?

Are they operated by the city, or the mall?

[dalparadise]

Because I'm a nutjob, like all protestors.

Are they operated by the city, or the mall?

The mall would have no authority to ticket, so they must be city meters, or else they aren't enforceable.

Also, Sugar Land City Hall has very little connection with the federal government. Your protest would be silly.

[woolie]

Also, Sugar Land City Hall has very little connection with the federal government. Your protest would be silly.

Your right... better to be safe at home, watching a protest on tv. Maybe they'll even get to use their riot gear this time, wouldn't that be a treat. Or the mall will simply have them removed...

[memebag]

The mall would have no authority to ticket, so they must be city meters, or else they aren't enforceable.

I'll try to find out for sure today.

Also, Sugar Land City Hall has very little connection with the federal government. Your protest would be silly.

Of course it would. That's not the point.

[bachanon]

You said you don't need to protest. I'm asking if you need to see other people protest, or if you're OK spending all of your time in private space, protected by private security guards from public free speech.

i loathe protesters. shall we start another thread?