Four Toll Lanes on I-10?

[mrfootball]

Tolls on rebuilt Katy Freeway may double at rush hour | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

Admittedly I wasn't paying much attention to the details of this project, I wasn't aware that there was such a significant tollroad component built into the I-10 project. There's an article in Chronicle stating that four lanes of the newly expanded I-10 are designated toll lanes which may or may not impose 'congestion' pricing when they open this October.

[MidtownCoog]

Well there should be some sort of punishment for living in Katy. j/k

But NYC says not to congestion zone pricing and Houston says yes? Who do we think we are, London?

[westguy]

It's for limousines only.

[mrfootball]

We have a bunch of crooks in government.

Was this sort of sprung on everyone? I don't recall hearing about a toll-road component on I-10 before this.

Edited April 8, 2008 by mrfootball

[ricco67]

I agree that perhaps the prices SHOULD be increased, but I'm not entirely sure by how much. I mean, if too many people use the HOV lane by simply paying it, then that lane will be congested after only a few years.

[KatieDidIt]

Brilliant. Amazingly Brilliant.

Ok, so gas is going up, most of the US economy down, so lets not only toll, but double the tolls. People will chose to hit the free lanes and the old congestion problem remains unsolved. And what are they ever going to do about the 610 interchange?

I'm so glad I never hit a freeway anymore.

Edited April 8, 2008 by KatieDidIt

[sarahiki]

I find all of this hilarious (I guess because I don't live out that way, it can be funny to me). The comments at the Chron site are great... all these people going, "we were duped! we were duped! we should have put light rail in instead!!."

Anytime the masses in Houston start screaming for light rail instead of freeways, you know things are wacky.

Brilliant. Amazingly Brilliant.

Ok, so gas is going up, most of the US economy down, so lets not only toll, but double the tolls. People will chose to hit the free lanes and the old congestion problem remains unsolved. And what are they ever going to do about the 610 interchange?

I'm so glad I never hit a freeway anymore.

[CDeb]

I don't recall hearing about a toll-road component on I-10 before this.

A toll component in some form has been part of the Katy Freeway project since the beginning. Variable congestion pricing has been the preferred option for several years now.

[ricco67]

No Katie, there are going to be TWO FREE HOV lanes, only one is going to be a toll lane (I believe, someone correct me). If you have two or more people in, its free. It is if you want to ride ALONE, then you get tolled.

Of course, if it happens on this system, we would get TROLLED...but that's for a another good drunken pun session.

[CDeb]

No Katie, there are going to be TWO FREE HOV lanes, only one is going to be a toll lane (I believe, someone correct me). If you have two or more people in, its free. It is if you want to ride ALONE, then you get tolled.

There will be two managed lanes in each direction. During the peak period, carpools of 3+ will be free, all other vehicles will pay a toll. This is for both lanes.

[KatieDidIt]

No Katie, there are going to be TWO FREE HOV lanes, only one is going to be a toll lane (I believe, someone correct me). If you have two or more people in, its free. It is if you want to ride ALONE, then you get tolled.

Of course, if it happens on this system, we would get TROLLED...but that's for a another good drunken pun session.

Two free HOV lanes, thanks for the correction. No one carpools in this town, how stupid to make two HOV and only one Toll.

Anyway, I was referring to the normal i-10 lanes being free. not the HOV or Toll.

Either way, I think traffic will get worst due to this. Hopefully it will cause more gentrification and reclaiming of old Inner Beltway hoods. Really with tolls,traffic, taxes and TAKS education...do the burbs really look that good anymore? Sacrificing the big, new house for a better life might be a trend. Let's hope.

We did, and life couldn't be sweeter.

Edited April 8, 2008 by KatieDidIt

[Mr. Chenevert]

Yes, these managed toll lanes have been part of the re-contruction project from the very beginning. Trust me, they dont just squeze 4 lanes of highway in withough planning it that way from the beginning.

The Managed Toll lanes are the new version of HOV lanes. Instead of 1 contra-low lane, you will now have 2 permanent lanes in each direction to use as HOV lanes.

In order to maximize usage of these lanes, it has been suggested that non-HOV vehicles will be allowed to pay a toll and use the lanes.

Here is the problem.

If you let too many people use the managed toll lanes, they will get congested. One obvious way to limit how many people use the toll lanes is to adjust the supply and demand curve. Obviously demand is going to be high. They didnt just rebuild I-10 because of lack of demand. However, the supply is fixed. The road can only handle so many cars per hour. To adjust this curve, you have to adjust how much it costs to use the managed toll lanes. By setting prices higher during high demand times, you achieve the objective.

[CDeb]

Two free HOV lanes, thanks for the correction. No one carpools in this town, how stupid to make two HOV and only one Toll.

Two lanes. Both are HOV and toll.

[CDeb]

If you let too many people use the managed toll lanes, they will get congested. One obvious way to limit how many people use the toll lanes is to adjust the supply and demand curve. Obviously demand is going to be high. They didnt just rebuild I-10 because of lack of demand. However, the supply is fixed. The road can only handle so many cars per hour. To adjust this curve, you have to adjust how much it costs to use the managed toll lanes. By setting prices higher during high demand times, you achieve the objective.

Excellent explanation.

Additionally, one of the fundamentals of traffic flow is that vehicular flow rate plummets in stop and go condition. Freeway capacity occurs when it is moving between 40-50 mph. Generally you can get about 2200-2300 passenger cars per lane at this speed. But once flow breaks down, that decreases drastically to just a few hundred vehicles per hour. So by increasing the toll rate during periods of high demand, the lanes are kept moving which, in turn, keeps the vehicular (and passenger) flow rate high. This maximizes the overall efficiency of the roadway.

This is why the public has trouble with the idea: because it is counterintuitive to essentially state "that by keeping some people from using it, more people can use it." But that's how it works.

Edited April 8, 2008 by CDeb

[wakester]

I do like how people always through a fit that they have been "tricked". I guess all the public meetings they had and the documents that have been on the Web for years that showed this and talked about "variable" tolls was not enough. They need to go to each person and tell them.

[kittyhawk]

You could have 10 general purpose lanes in both directions on IH-10 Katy and still have issues with congestion (not to mention some major weaving issues). This is attributed to the physical design of Houston and most sunbelt cities, with people moving farther away from their places of business to get to cheap real estate and good schools.

Utilized properly, a managed toll facility will at least give people a choice for improving their travel time if they are willing to pay a price. I personally think that its going to take awhile for Harris County to figure out how to use this thing. But mark my word, the world's traffic engineers and politicians are watching, and these will be popping up all over the place in the future.

Oh, and so nobody acts surprised, 290 also has toll lanes built in to its pending reconstruction.

http://www.my290.com/Map.htm

[Subdude]

I find all of this hilarious (I guess because I don't live out that way, it can be funny to me). The comments at the Chron site are great... all these people going, "we were duped! we were duped! we should have put light rail in instead!!."

Anytime the masses in Houston start screaming for light rail instead of freeways, you know things are wacky.

Yeah, I read the comments at the Chronicle and it was surprising how upset people are about this. It's the "Lexus Lane" thing: many people feel that since their tax dollars have been spent on the reconstruction, it is inequitable to charge large fares to reduce congestion. Peak pricing was also proposed for the Westpark toll road but it was rolled back due to the public resistance.

[musicman]

many people feel that since their tax dollars have been spent on the reconstruction, it is inequitable to charge large fares to reduce congestion. Peak pricing was also proposed for the Westpark toll road but it was rolled back due to the public resistance.

Yes tax dollars were used for a portion of the project however HCTRA kicked in 500 million for the toll road here which sure helps when funding is limited. Numerous organizations were involved here.

[GovernorAggie]

I find it sadly funny that people are so perturbed about this. Weren't they patting Culberson on the back for getting this project going? The whole reason that the Katy will be done by 2009 instead of 2012 is because of HCTRA fronting TxDOT something to the tune of $500 million (EDIT: Thanks for the right number Musicman) in exchange for being able to operate managed lanes. Mark my words, $2.50 is going to seem like chump change after while. I think the toll will end up being more like $5, because HCTRA is going to realize that plenty of people (aka too many) will be able to afford $2.50.

So what the project really is is one new lane in each direction and in places one new feeder lane in each direction of the Katy Freeway with the construction of the Katy Tollway in the median. They are two projects stitiched together.

Houston is just the latest to use this approach--San Diego and Minneapolis have been doing this for quite some time. Washington, DC also only allows HOVs inside their Beltway at certain times as well IIRC.

Edited April 8, 2008 by GovernorAggie

[Subdude]

I find it sadly funny that people are so perturbed about this. Weren't they patting Culberson on the back for getting this project going? The whole reason that the Katy will be done by 2009 instead of 2012 is because of HCTRA fronting TxDOT something to the tune of $500 million (EDIT: Thanks for the right number Musicman) in exchange for being able to operate managed lanes. Mark my words, $2.50 is going to seem like chump change after while. I think the toll will end up being more like $5, because HCTRA is going to realize that plenty of people (aka too many) will be able to afford $2.50.

So what the project really is is one new lane in each direction and in places one new feeder lane in each direction of the Katy Freeway with the construction of the Katy Tollway in the median. They are two projects stitiched together.

Houston is just the latest to use this approach--San Diego and Minneapolis have been doing this for quite some time. Washington, DC also only allows HOVs inside their Beltway at certain times as well IIRC.

I suppose the hard part will be finding the right price that is high enough to keep the toll lane traffic moving but not so high that they don't make enough revenue. The peak time congestion pricing seems to make sense.

[N Judah]

In addition to finding the "right price" (meaning a higher price) don't forget they can always adjust the criteria for HOV to go up as they decide they want to make more money from the tollpaying people.

Usually when someone brings up "congestion pricing" I like to ask if it will be free when no one is using it. Saying it is a HOV lane that tolls everyone else is a clever end run around this. So effectively it is not really congestion pricing, it is just a regular tollway with a peak-time luxury tax. How disingenuous.

Edited April 9, 2008 by N Judah

[Mr. Chenevert]

In addition to finding the "right price" (meaning a higher price) don't forget they can always adjust the criteria for HOV to go up as they decide they want to make more money from the tollpaying people.

Usually when someone brings up "congestion pricing" I like to ask if it will be free when no one is using it. Saying it is a HOV lane that tolls everyone else is a clever end run around this. So effectively it is not really congestion pricing, it is just a regular tollway with a peak-time luxury tax. How disingenuous.

I think conjestion pricing will ultimately mean that fares could decrease during non-peak times (probably never free). I also think rebates for trips that end up being conjested even though the driver paid the increased fare will occur. But these are enhancements that will take time and technology to incoporate.

[Pumapayam]

Brilliant. Amazingly Brilliant.

Ok, so gas is going up, most of the US economy down, so lets not only toll, but double the tolls. People will chose to hit the free lanes and the old congestion problem remains unsolved. And what are they ever going to do about the 610 interchange?

I'm so glad I never hit a freeway anymore.

It is really WORTH just buying a home close to the center of the city/work.

Living in places like Spring/Cypress, Katy, Sugar Land is just a huge investment, especially with fuel on the rise.

[ricco67]

Living in places like Spring/Cypress, Katy, Sugar Land is just a huge investment, especially with fuel on the rise.

I agree. Over the past couple of weeks I was looking at my fuel consumption and a round trip from Montrose to the Beltway would take 2.5 to 3 gallons for a round trip. The milage may vary because some freeways are more congested than others. That equates to about $12 a DAY in fuel (approx) for those that live outside the Beltway and that is if you strictly use the car for Work. That doesn't include maintenance, tires, etc.. that's kinda' scary.

[jfre81]

It is really WORTH just buying a home close to the center of the city/work.

Living in places like Spring/Cypress, Katy, Sugar Land is just a huge investment, especially with fuel on the rise.

I'd only live in those places if I worked there. Otherwise, forget it. Those people are pretty much paying a second mortgage at the pump. Now they'll be paying a third one taking I-10 it sounds like.

[musicman]

It is really WORTH just buying a home close to the center of the city/work. Living in places like Spring/Cypress, Katy, Sugar Land is just a huge investment, especially with fuel on the rise.

Assuming someone works near the center of the city yes. But since downtown isn't the only employment center, the burbs are convenient locations for some.

Edited April 9, 2008 by musicman

[Original Timmy Chan's]

I know the "managed lanes" concept has been part of the reconstruction since the beginning, well before construction started. It was in the news articles 5 years ago (or whenever I-10 reconstruction was initially discussed prior to construction).

Here's the question I've been asking ever since I first heard about the idea: HOW DO THEY DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN AN "HOV" CAR AND A SINGLE-RIDER CAR? How does the system know who to toll and who rides for free? Is this done by a person watching a screen, or the honor system or what?

[westguy76]

Assuming someone works near the center of the city yes. But since downtown isn't the only employment center, the burbs are convenient locations for some.

I live in Cinco Ranch and work in the Westchase district. I do not use I-10 hardly ever, if I do it's on the weekend. same with the westpark tollway which I use more often on the weekend. I can travel straight east/west on Westheimer Parkway and Westheimer to just off Wilcrest where I work. Even with all the lights it takes me anywhere from 20 to 30 minutes on average. I believe it's about a 12 mile drive to work for me, about 5 of which is driving through the Barker resivoir which I enjoy in the mornings.

[crunchtastic]

How many people don't even need to commute?

I've seen a couple of internal studies at past employers (which were quickly quashed) . I can only speak for my industry, but roughly 70% of the people in my office don't need to be here on-site to do their job. I'm not sure what it is--companies afraid they'l lose productivity? There are some legitimate fears about intellectual property and working remotely, but mainly, no executive wants to spend money on any IT infrastructure improvements that don't positively impact his bottom line that quarter, or that year, or for that 5 year strategic plan.

It is patently ridiculous that I need to be here, in my overly lit office that hasn't been vaccumed since 1984, to make my daily contribution to shareholder value.

We have the technology. All I need is mid-level remote database clearance, and some upgraded software.

edit: we're so unwilling to pay the costs now for improvement down the line, we're still arguing over freeways--100 years after the automobile. That's just nuts.

Edited April 9, 2008 by crunchtastic

[wxman]

Ok, can somebody help me out here? I have heard 10 different things about the new interstate. I've heard it to be as much as 24 lanes across. I've heard 10 lanes, I've heard 16 lanes. Which is it? The way I understood it was it will be 10 mainlanes on each side with 4 HOV lanes in the center. Is this correct?

[musicman]

Ok, can somebody help me out here? I have heard 10 different things about the new interstate. I've heard it to be as much as 24 lanes across. I've heard 10 lanes, I've heard 16 lanes. Which is it? The way I understood it was it will be 10 mainlanes on each side with 4 HOV lanes in the center. Is this correct?

each way there are 2 toll, 4 regular, 3 feeder...i should end this with i think.

EDIT: confirmed here i'm talking from highway 6 to 610.

Edited April 9, 2008 by musicman

[N Judah]

I think conjestion pricing will ultimately mean that fares could decrease during non-peak times (probably never free). I also think rebates for trips that end up being conjested even though the driver paid the increased fare will occur. But these are enhancements that will take time and technology to incoporate.

Well, if it's ever decreed to be *never* free, then it's not congestion pricing.

And any technology that can be used to increase fares can be used to decrease fares too. The floor needs to be zero, not $2.00 or whatever they want the baseline to be now. Otherwise, it is not truly "congestion pricing."

[jfre81]

Soon there will be a toll booth at everyone's driveway. Back out, pay a buck.

[N Judah]

each way there are 2 toll, 4 regular, 3 feeder...i should end this with i think.

EDIT: confirmed here i'm talking from highway 6 to 610.

Yes. As I-10 was 3 lanes in each direction prior to the expansion, we paid a few billion for a few toll lanes in the middle. So any person who uses the toll lane is double-paying, and any person who uses the regular lanes may experience a slight decrease in congestion for a few years or so before it becomes as crowded as before.

[Mr. Chenevert]

I know the "managed lanes" concept has been part of the reconstruction since the beginning, well before construction started. It was in the news articles 5 years ago (or whenever I-10 reconstruction was initially discussed prior to construction).

Here's the question I've been asking ever since I first heard about the idea: HOW DO THEY DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN AN "HOV" CAR AND A SINGLE-RIDER CAR? How does the system know who to toll and who rides for free? Is this done by a person watching a screen, or the honor system or what?

The HOV system today is an honor system with selective enforcement. I do not see that as changing.

It's entirely possible that HOV cars will enter at different points than toll paying cars.

In any case, I am sure they have thought of this issue and have worked out a solution.

[TheNiche]

How many people don't even need to commute?

I've seen a couple of internal studies at past employers (which were quickly quashed) . I can only speak for my industry, but roughly 70% of the people in my office don't need to be here on-site to do their job. I'm not sure what it is--companies afraid they'l lose productivity? There are some legitimate fears about intellectual property and working remotely, but mainly, no executive wants to spend money on any IT infrastructure improvements that don't positively impact his bottom line that quarter, or that year, or for that 5 year strategic plan.

It is patently ridiculous that I need to be here, in my overly lit office that hasn't been vaccumed since 1984, to make my daily contribution to shareholder value.

We have the technology. All I need is mid-level remote database clearance, and some upgraded software.

It was apparently tried and then abandoned by the Greater Houston Partnership at one point. They required certain things of people that wanted to telecommute, including that they have their own dedicated room as an office at home, that they didn't have any kids at home during the day, and that their roles were compatible (i.e. receptionists don't qualify). Some people lacked discipline, but the really big problem, from what I've heard, was jealousy among non-qualifiers.

Also, some corporate executives (typically older folks) aren't comfortable with new technology. They like face-to-face conversation, and even video conferencing doesn't cut it. I'm thinking that Gen X will solve a lot of that.

[musicman]

Yes. As I-10 was 3 lanes in each direction prior to the expansion, we paid a few billion for a few toll lanes in the middle. So any person who uses the toll lane is double-paying, and any person who uses the regular lanes may experience a slight decrease in congestion for a few years or so before it becomes as crowded as before.

we didn't pay a few billion for tolls lanes in the middle. HCTRA did, just like the other toll roads around houston. If you want to use it, then you will be charged like the other toll roads.

[Standeck]

My understanding of the toll scheme is that there will be three lanes at each toll station:

- One for vehicles with 3+ passengers, no toll

- One for vehicles with 2+ passengers, depending on time of day either no toll or nominal toll

- One for single passenger vehicles, tolled with congestion pricing (i.e., pay more during rush hour)

Drivers will self select and (hopefully) be in the correct lane when reaching the toll station. Their EZ Tags will get charged according to which sensor they pass under. Enforcement will be via Metro officer on a bike as it is now. Bottom line, you can probably sneak through, but if you get caught it's going to cost you big time.

[Trae]

The Katy Corridor Coalition had it right first, with putting in rail in the middle, and still having a lane each way for HOV. They just asked too much with wanted the freeway depressed. Without that, they had the better plan, but it probably wouldn't have happened with the politicians we have in Houston.

[Mr. Chenevert]

My understanding of the toll scheme is that there will be three lanes at each toll station:

- One for vehicles with 3+ passengers, no toll

- One for vehicles with 2+ passengers, depending on time of day either no toll or nominal toll

- One for single passenger vehicles, tolled with congestion pricing (i.e., pay more during rush hour)

Drivers will self select and (hopefully) be in the correct lane when reaching the toll station. Their EZ Tags will get charged according to which sensor they pass under. Enforcement will be via Metro officer on a bike as it is now. Bottom line, you can probably sneak through, but if you get caught it's going to cost you big time.

That makes sense. And it would be very easy to put easy tag readers near other enforement area's to see if single passenger cars indeed paid the appropriate toll.

[Original Timmy Chan's]

My understanding of the toll scheme is that there will be three lanes at each toll station:

- One for vehicles with 3+ passengers, no toll

- One for vehicles with 2+ passengers, depending on time of day either no toll or nominal toll

- One for single passenger vehicles, tolled with congestion pricing (i.e., pay more during rush hour)

Drivers will self select and (hopefully) be in the correct lane when reaching the toll station. Their EZ Tags will get charged according to which sensor they pass under. Enforcement will be via Metro officer on a bike as it is now. Bottom line, you can probably sneak through, but if you get caught it's going to cost you big time.

Thank you for the reply! This is the first time I've heard any detail about how the managed lanes would work.

However, I'm afraid that forcing drivers to pick the correct lane will be as successful as asking only EZ Tag drivers to drive in an EZ Tag lane. How many times a day will you have someone STOPPING on the HOV lane to change lanes at the last minute, just like they do at Sam Houston Tollway Toll Plazas?

[wakester]

The HOV system today is an honor system with selective enforcement. I do not see that as changing.

It's entirely possible that HOV cars will enter at different points than toll paying cars.

In any case, I am sure they have thought of this issue and have worked out a solution.

A picture is worth a 1000 words

[jfre81]

How many times a day will you have someone STOPPING on the HOV lane to change lanes at the last minute, just like they do at Sam Houston Tollway Toll Plazas?

This is exactly the scenario that has me thinking I'll be avoiding this new I-10 like gonorrhea. I despise driving the Sam for this particular reason.

[N Judah]

we didn't pay a few billion for tolls lanes in the middle. HCTRA did, just like the other toll roads around houston. If you want to use it, then you will be charged like the other toll roads.

So you're saying gas taxes are not being used to finance the I-10 expansion? We had 3 lanes before and we have 3 lanes now.

[CDeb]

I'd only live in those places if I worked there. Otherwise, forget it. Those people are pretty much paying a second mortgage at the pump. Now they'll be paying a third one taking I-10 it sounds like.

I live in Cypress, work in Uptown (48 miles round trip), drive on the shoulders of the peak period and generally get about 26 mpg in my 2003 Camry. So at $3.35 a gallon and 22 work days a month, my commuting basically costs me $136 a month. Hardly a second mortgate. The rest of what we spend on gasoline (shopping, out of town trips, etc) would be the same no matter where we live. Gasoline prices are going to have to get a LOT higher in order to justify the huge jump in housing cost.

[cgallagher]

So.... there's three toll booths between 610 and Hwy 6 and if they decide to go ahead with the elevated pricing, it will be $7.50 one way from Katy. That's $75 both ways in a 5 day work week. I remember when there were no toll roads in Houston. Now it seems like it's never going to end.

I like the idea of a Houston bypass lane for 18 wheelers and passing traffic. A lane that you could get on in Baytown and not get off until Katy with no other exits in between. This would divert all passing traffic off the main lanes and get most of the 18 wheelers out of the way. Imagine how nice that could be.

Why are all new roads being built toll roads? Fort Bend, West park, I10, some bridge on the east side. I feel like at some point we have to say enough is enough. We pay enough in taxes to drive our on our roads, and we have the right to get from A to B quickly without having to pay extra tolls.

[Trae]

I-10 is still a freeway.

[memebag]

Also, some corporate executives (typically older folks) aren't comfortable with new technology. They like face-to-face conversation, and even video conferencing doesn't cut it. I'm thinking that Gen X will solve a lot of that.

I've been a telecommuter and I've managed telecommuters. It sounds like a great idea (going back to when I first read Clifford Simak's 1952 novel "City"), but I've never seen it work well. It's very hard not to become suspicious of workers you can't see, no matter how productive they really are.

[musicman]

So you're saying gas taxes are not being used to finance the I-10 expansion? We had 3 lanes before and we have 3 lanes now.

no your comment was that we paid a few billion for tolls lanes in the middle. we didnt. gas taxes are being used to finance some of the expansion (the free lanes /feeder) but hctra is funding the toll portion. this is a special venture where entities are working together which allowed them to finish the project earlier. we have 3 lanes now because it isn't finished. we're gaining a regular lane and a feeder lane on the free portion when it is completed.

We pay enough in taxes to drive our on our roads, and we have the right to get from A to B quickly without having to pay extra tolls.

wow a right? remember it's a privilege to drive not a right.

the funding source for toll roads is not like a regular road. users pay for it.

Edited April 10, 2008 by musicman

[jfre81]

Why are all new roads being built toll roads? Fort Bend, West park, I10, some bridge on the east side. I feel like at some point we have to say enough is enough. We pay enough in taxes to drive our on our roads, and we have the right to get from A to B quickly without having to pay extra tolls.

I've long considered toll roads to be the best advertisement for public mass/rapid transit known to man. Americans feel entitled to drive their own cars, but to do so free of tolls. Once the tolls shatter their little aura of entitlement, alternatives start being considered more. This will only stoke the clamoring for commuter rail in Katy and parts west. Maybe this is actually the aim of all this? Who knows.

To be certain, there was no demand for mass transit here beyond the HouTran/Metro bus system before there were toll roads.