Traffic In Memorial Park

[cottonmather0]

The trail is rather uneven there, particularly where it dips down to cross the creek because it washes out regularly after a heavy rain. It's also literally right next to the curb and the traffic on the road going west usually at speeds well over the posted 45mph limit. A driver could lose control of his car and go over the curb into the trail or a runner could very easily slip and fall off the curb into the street. I don't think a little bit of forced separation between the two would necessarily be a bad thing.

Here's the satellite view of that paricular stretch:

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=29....p;z=19&om=0

And here's the street view (I hope the link works):

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=29....954982243199794

EDIT: Eh, it didn't work.

[KatieDidIt]

The trail is rather uneven there, particularly where it dips down to cross the creek because it washes out regularly after a heavy rain. It's also literally right next to the curb and the traffic on the road going west usually at speeds well over the posted 45mph limit. A driver could lose control of his car and go over the curb into the trail or a runner could very easily slip and fall off the curb into the street. I don't think a little bit of forced separation between the two would necessarily be a bad thing.

Here's the satellite view of that paricular stretch:

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=29....p;z=19&om=0

And here's the street view (I hope the link works):

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=29....954982243199794

EDIT: Eh, it didn't work.

Has is ever happened before? The park and the trail have been together for a very long time. Surely if this is a real problem it would have happened before.

[ricco67]

The only real incident I am aware of is of a jogger running into the path of a train while wearing headphones. But that was at least 10-15 years ago.

[sidegate]

Has is ever happened before? The park and the trail have been together for a very long time. Surely if this is a real problem it would have happened before.

not to resort to hoary old axioms, but Benjamin was right, an ounce of prevention really is worth a pound of cure.

[KatieDidIt]

not to resort to hoary old axioms, but Benjamin was right, an ounce of prevention really is worth a pound of cure.

Thus in modern terms, "The Nanny State."

Try running Terry Hershey. No cars, big parking lots at the end, no exhaust lots of nature and rolling hills. It might be a better option for you. Its like you are not even in Houston anymore.

[TheNiche]

not to resort to hoary old axioms, but Benjamin was right, an ounce of prevention really is worth a pound of cure.

Ah, but what a happens to the relative price of cure when we oversupply prevention?

[sidegate]

Thus in modern terms, "The Nanny State."

Try running Terry Hershey. No cars, big parking lots at the end, no exhaust lots of nature and rolling hills. It might be a better option for you. Its like you are not even in Houston anymore.

So are y'all opposed to road markings? Traffic lights? I mean, everyone can look after themselves, right?

Where is Terry Hershey Park? Sounds intriguing. If it's outside the Loop I'm not going though :-D

[KatieDidIt]

So are y'all opposed to road markings? Traffic lights? I mean, everyone can look after themselves, right?

Where is Terry Hershey Park? Sounds intriguing. If it's outside the Loop I'm not going though :-D

No, I'm just saying there is no reason to protect people from perceived risk rather than actual risk. If 10 cars had plowed into joggers in the past 10 years, I'd consider it. But since its never happened I don't see the point of putting up ugly metal barricades in a park just because there is a possibilty it might happen to one jogger 20 years from now.

Yeah, THP is outside the loop, outside the Beltway even, in West Memorial. Too bad, its worth the trip you Looper you.

[sidegate]

No, I'm just saying there is no reason to protect people from perceived risk rather than actual risk. If 10 cars had plowed into joggers in the past 10 years, I'd consider it. But since its never happened I don't see the point of putting up ugly metal barricades in a park just because there is a possibilty it might happen to one jogger 20 years from now.

Yeah, THP is outside the loop, outside the Beltway even, in West Memorial. Too bad, its worth the trip you Looper you.

Yes I confess I am. Maybe I'll stop by on my way to San Antonio some time :-)

Okay, so they've modeled (in silico) a scenario where large parts of Houston would be submerged after a direct hit of a Cat 5 storm on the ship channel. Is that perceived risk (it's a computer after all), or real risk? Would you support pre-emptive construction of a flood barrier which, though expensive, would be a fraction of the cost in lives, livelihoods and real property if it actually happened? Or are you pretty happy with the way things are since the scenario modeled has never come to pass?

[TheNiche]

Yes I confess I am. Maybe I'll stop by on my way to San Antonio some time :-)

Okay, so they've modeled (in silico) a scenario where large parts of Houston would be submerged after a direct hit of a Cat 5 storm on the ship channel. Is that perceived risk (it's a computer after all), or real risk? Would you support pre-emptive construction of a flood barrier which, though expensive, would be a fraction of the cost in lives, livelihoods and real property if it actually happened? Or are you pretty happy with the way things are since the scenario modeled has never come to pass?

This is a classic cost-benefit argument. The probability of a Cat 5 hitting is sufficiently low that it doesn't make sense to build such expensive seawalls as could withstand it, pretty much anywhere under any circumstances.

The scenario you set up doesn't make sense, though. The City of Houston has some special annexations so that it controls the entire ship channel, but the ship channel actually isn't poised to 'surge' because there just isn't enough water in it. And the only way that Galveston Bay could be pushed up the Ship Channel would be if the storm struck around San Luis pass and traveled north over land, thus losing steam...and from any other direction the winds aren't blowing the right direction. A Cat 5 typically moves through so quickly that flooding also probably wouldn't be an issue. In a Cat 5, wind would be the real problem for Houston. Let Galveston County worry about storm surge.

[KatieDidIt]

Yes I confess I am. Maybe I'll stop by on my way to San Antonio some time :-)

Okay, so they've modeled (in silico) a scenario where large parts of Houston would be submerged after a direct hit of a Cat 5 storm on the ship channel. Is that perceived risk (it's a computer after all), or real risk? Would you support pre-emptive construction of a flood barrier which, though expensive, would be a fraction of the cost in lives, livelihoods and real property if it actually happened? Or are you pretty happy with the way things are since the scenario modeled has never come to pass?

I actually think there is a higher probability of getting hit by a Cat 5 than there is getting hit by a flying SUV on said corner in Memorial Park.

Just think how broke this government would be if we constantly ran around fixing things and protecting people from situations that might possibly happen. Oh wait..........

[Scott08]

Just doing a little soapbox routine here....almost a decade ago now, the Parks department hired an outside firm to draw up three different proposals for a Memorial Park Master Plan. It was rumored then that the Conservancy wanted the mountainbikers out so as an avid cyclist I got involved and attended all of the public meetings back then. "Our" trails on the south side of Memorial Drive in the wooded acreage mentioned previously were saved in all three scenarios, and the road/parking aspects were addressed at that time too. What is now happening in the park is a combination of ideas from all three of those proposals, one of its biggest victories was keeping the Houston Open out of the golf course there which would have required some radical changes that went against all versions of the Master Plan. One of the upsides of this civic involvement is that now the mountainbikers even have a seat on the Conservancy Board, something that would have been unheard of in the past. Although trail runners and hikers also use the trails back there, whenever there's a volunteer workday to repair them, it's almost always 100% cyclists helping out. Memorial Park is really an amazing treasure just the way it is. I believe it is the largest urban park in the US, caters to many divergent groups, i.e. cyclists, runners, golfers, tennis players, swimmers, etc. and actually has a very small amount of pavement as a percentage of its total area. I think Ima Hogg would be happy with the way the park has evolved with our times. I am personally against adding any more "structures" than necessary, the idea of protective barriers is ridiculous. As far as cars there, at least 75% of the time I use the park, I ride my bike there.

[ricco67]

Scott, the only "barrier" I was suggesting would be like 1 or 2 feet, something akin to what is on main street and not interfere with the views. At that height it would get just about everything but the most high flying of cars, and for that to happen memorial drive would practically have to be totally empty and the park would be as well.

[sidegate]

I believe it is the largest urban park in the US, caters to many divergent groups, i.e. cyclists, runners, golfers, tennis players, swimmers, etc. and actually has a very small amount of pavement as a percentage of its total area. I think Ima Hogg would be happy with the way the park has evolved with our times. I am personally against adding any more "structures" than necessary, the idea of protective barriers is ridiculous. As far as cars there, at least 75% of the time I use the park, I ride my bike there.

You could probably also count on one hand the number of urban parks where vehicles traveling at speeds of 50mph (and over, when there are no cops around) can come literally within inches of joggers & strollers. There are certain eventualities that shouldn't be entrusted to the weight of probability, IMO. As ricco67 points out the barriers would be of the kind that exist all over the city to deflect vehicles and that probably wouldn't even register on one's visual cortex unless pointed out.

[musicman]

Scott, the only "barrier" I was suggesting would be like 1 or 2 feet, something akin to what is on main street

refresh my memory. where are you talking?

[ricco67]

Those posts that you see that line the Metro rail from Capital to Franklin. Posts with 3 cables.

[musicman]

Those posts that you see that line the Metro rail from Capital to Franklin. Posts with 3 cables.

those are designed to stop pedestrians, not vehicles.

[ricco67]

Scott, the only "barrier" I was suggesting would be like 1 or 2 feet, something akin to what is on main street and not interfere with the views.

those are designed to stop pedestrians, not vehicles.

akin [əˈkin] adjective

(often with to) similar in nature.

You don't need to STOP a vehicle, but deflect works just as well.

[musicman]

You don't need to STOP a vehicle, but deflect works just as well.

stand behind it while i drive towards you and see if you'll make the statement again.

[ricco67]

Go ahead I'll stand behind my statement.

As you should know, deflection is often a preferred way of redirecting an out of control vehicle as opposed to just making it come to a sudden stop. On memorial park the cars wouldn't come directly at the fence at a 90degrees, but more along the line of 45degrees. Why do you think NASCAR makes "soft walls" now.

Better yet, look it up. I'll wait.

The current design on main seemed to work quite well when it stopped a drunk driver a year or so ago.

[cnote]

This may be a little off topic, but relates to the idea of traffic encroaching on the park space...is the Houston Polo Club part of Memorial Park? That place looks beautiful. I never even knew that place was there, but now that they are redoing the I-10 west 610 interchange, the freeway is right on top of it as they lost most to of their tree barrier.... Anyone ever been to a match?

[musicman]

Go ahead I'll stand behind my statement.

now if i can just get you to stand behind the posts and cables.

As you should know, deflection is often a preferred way of redirecting an out of control vehicle as opposed to just making it come to a sudden stop. On memorial park the cars wouldn't come directly at the fence at a 90degrees, but more along the line of 45degrees. Why do you think NASCAR makes "soft walls" now.

we're not talking soft walls, we're talking posts and cables.

[KatieDidIt]

This may be a little off topic, but relates to the idea of traffic encroaching on the park space...is the Houston Polo Club part of Memorial Park? That place looks beautiful. I never even knew that place was there, but now that they are redoing the I-10 west 610 interchange, the freeway is right on top of it as they lost most to of their tree barrier.... Anyone ever been to a match?

Yes, its beautiful. You can also lease horses for your children and take lessons there. But like anything exclussive, it comes at a high cost.

now if i can just get you to stand behind the posts and cables.

we're not talking soft walls, we're talking posts and cables.

I can see someone suing the city for tripping over the posts and cables.

[musicman]

I can see someone suing the city for tripping over the posts and cables.

yeah....i think the trail is fine as is.

[sidegate]

I can see someone suing the city for tripping over the posts and cables.

stick a disclaimer beside them.

one would have to wonder why Metro bothered putting them up when they build the LRT platforms. Surely people are co-ordinated enough to not get in the way of the trains? Oh, wait...

[KatieDidIt]

stick a disclaimer beside them.

one would have to wonder why Metro bothered putting them up when they build the LRT platforms. Surely people are co-ordinated enough to not get in the way of the trains? Oh, wait...

Post a disclaimer in order to protect people from the item put in place to protect people on the track? This is nanny state.

How about a disclaimer on the park? "If you are alive, you could die or be injured."

The park is fine the way it is.

[musicman]

one would have to wonder why Metro bothered putting them up when they build the LRT platforms. Surely people are co-ordinated enough to not get in the way of the trains? Oh, wait...

those were an afterthought. i think originally people were hoping that would be a popular party area for a long time and this would force pedestrians to the crosswalks.

[sidegate]

Post a disclaimer in order to protect people from the item put in place to protect people on the track? This is nanny state.

How about a disclaimer on the park? "If you are alive, you could die or be injured."

The park is fine the way it is.

Clearly the web has a way to go in conveying humor, or attempts at it at least.

The park is not fine the way it is IMO. Have you checked out how long it takes for water to drain from those open ditches after it rains? But admittedly that is off-topic for this thread. Anyway, we'll just have to disagree on this point.

[Scott08]

Post a disclaimer in order to protect people from the item put in place to protect people on the track? This is nanny state.

How about a disclaimer on the park? "If you are alive, you could die or be injured."

The park is fine the way it is.

Amen, sister.

[sifuwong]

I'm not sure on the mandates that are in use for the park, but the road has been there since before the inception of the park itself (there used to be a Military base there).

Quite frankly, I'd like to see some easier way for people staying/living in downtown (and galleria) to be able to more easily access the park for their jogging.

I always recommend to out of town visitors to utilize that park (along with Allen Parkway, Rice, and Hermann) for their morning jog before work or in the evenings. Quite a number of them don't have cars and using Memorial park isn't very easy for them to use, but they generally enjoy the experience (and eye candy).

I don't know about you, but the times that i've driven through there, i didn't see any eye candy. If anything, i saw alot of older women w/o makeup....not a pretty sight.