M Square: Mixed-Use Development At 3200 Post Oak Blvd.

[GovernorAggie]

Crescent is breaking ground on 6 Houston Center in 30 days.

I realize that. What I meant was something other than the Brookfield Propoerties/6 Houston Center/Discovery Tower/Hines interest on Main/La Quinta/Embassy Suites rumors/proposals/plans that have been brought forth already.

Like a real project confirmation for Houston City Centre (besides just a nice graphic) would be nice.

[NewMND]

As far as land near Williams Tower, all I can think of is that spot where sometimes they have the circus, on Richmond, near 610. I think there used to be Mason Jar there. It would be a good spot, because of access to Richmond and 610, and also, if they position it just right, it could block the Mercer.

[strickn]

EngCONS (and anyone else who may want to answer this),

Just two questions...

1. Have you heard of anything at this or a comparable scale for Downtown?

2. Have you heard of anything for Downtown.

No details needed, I'd just like to know if there's anymore besides the pending ones (i.e. Brookfield's two plots and Hines' alleged interest in the old Shamrock block).

If it even only halfway materializes (40 and 25 stories), it would still be great. I just hope that Downtown begins to see more movement from the hype factory.

Thanks a bunch!

Don't hold your breath. Regardless of mass transit or auto transit, people generally (almost without exception) like to live on the same side of downtown that they work on; it is not a nice prospect to have to cross the center in rush hour congestion to get to work and to get back home. Once favorite sides of downtown develop, new jobs and new housing feed outward on one another, making it all the more unlikely, over time, that residents of the region will work or live on the disfavored sides of downtown. Houston has spread so far to the west now that *downtown is on the wrong side of Uptown*. While there are still plenty of directions to get to it from, and , compared to crappy East and West Coast roads, the drive can be feasible even from the west if you happen to enjoy being behind the wheel, it simply is going to be a rarer occasion to find the tenant base for going real high-rise downtown as opposed to uptown - or the energy corridor, where costs don't need to bother going high-rise.

[six]

As far as land near Williams Tower, all I can think of is that spot where sometimes they have the circus, on Richmond, near 610. I think there used to be Mason Jar there. It would be a good spot, because of access to Richmond and 610, and also, if they position it just right, it could block the Mercer.

But What is close to the Williams Towers......

The Corner of Richmond Ave and Post Oak blvd north to the Lakes on Post Oak.

I think it was a 9 acre tract to be developed by Boymelgreen with 2 condo towers, 222 unit , The San Felipe ??

Edited January 21, 2008 by six

[King Owl]

But What is close to the Williams Towers......

The Corner of Richmond Ave and Post Oak blvd north to the Lakes on Post Oak.

I think it was a 9 acre tract to be developed by Boymelgreen with 2 condo towers, 222 unit , The San Felipe ??

Yeah if I had to make a guess it would be the Boymelgreen development. It's in the right area as described by ENGcons and we know that Boymelgreen has the financial capacity to put something like this together. I thought I had read that initially they were going to do two 30 story condo towers on that Richmond/Post Oak property. Perhaps they're reconsidering.

Here's the thread from when they bought the property... http://www.houstonarchitecture.info/haif/i...lgreen&st=0

[KinkaidAlum]

Don't hold your breath. Regardless of mass transit or auto transit, people generally (almost without exception) like to live on the same side of downtown that they work on; it is not a nice prospect to have to cross the center in rush hour congestion to get to work and to get back home. Once favorite sides of downtown develop, new jobs and new housing feed outward on one another, making it all the more unlikely, over time, that residents of the region will work or live on the disfavored sides of downtown. Houston has spread so far to the west now that *downtown is on the wrong side of Uptown*. While there are still plenty of directions to get to it from, and , compared to crappy East and West Coast roads, the drive can be feasible even from the west if you happen to enjoy being behind the wheel, it simply is going to be a rarer occasion to find the tenant base for going real high-rise downtown as opposed to uptown - or the energy corridor, where costs don't need to bother going high-rise.

What?

Downtown's office market is incredibly healthy. That is why all of Brookfield, Hines, Crescent, and Trammell Crow are chomping at the bit to break ground on MAJOR buildings.

Additionally, Finger is building downtown's first new residential highrise in decades. If it turns out to be successful, others will surely follow suit.

And, I don't get where you are figuring that Houston has moved so far to the West that downtown is on the wrong side of Uptown? That is an odd statement to say the least because if you stayed solely West of Uptown you would miss out on being able to use Intercontinental and Hobby Airports...you'd miss out on Texans, Astros, Rockets, Comets, Aeros, Dyanmo, Cougar, Owl, and Tiger games...you'd miss out on the Texas Medical Center... you'd miss out on NASA... you'd miss out on Memorial and Hermann Parks...you wouldn't have a symphony, ballet, opera, or major theatre company...you wouldn't be able to find the home of 7 out of the top 10 and 13 out of the top 20 public companies...you wouldn't have Reliant Center or GRB to host large scale conventions...you'd lack access to the 2 largest hotels in the city as well as access to the city's best hotel (Four Seasons)...your kids wouldn't be able to visit the Museum of Science, Children's Museum, MFA, Holocaust Museum, etc...you'd miss out on the local headquarters to the region's 6 largest banks...you'd only be able to manage your money with 2 out of the 10 largest money management firms...

[TheNiche]

What?

Downtown's office market is incredibly healthy. That is why all of Brookfield, Hines, Crescent, and Trammell Crow are chomping at the bit to break ground on MAJOR buildings.

Additionally, Finger is building downtown's first new residential highrise in decades. If it turns out to be successful, others will surely follow suit.

And, I don't get where you are figuring that Houston has moved so far to the West that downtown is on the wrong side of Uptown? That is an odd statement to say the least because if you stayed solely West of Uptown you would miss out on being able to use Intercontinental and Hobby Airports...you'd miss out on Texans, Astros, Rockets, Comets, Aeros, Dyanmo, Cougar, Owl, and Tiger games...you'd miss out on the Texas Medical Center... you'd miss out on NASA... you'd miss out on Memorial and Hermann Parks...you wouldn't have a symphony, ballet, opera, or major theatre company...you wouldn't be able to find the home of 7 out of the top 10 and 13 out of the top 20 public companies...you wouldn't have Reliant Center or GRB to host large scale conventions...you'd lack access to the 2 largest hotels in the city as well as access to the city's best hotel (Four Seasons)...your kids wouldn't be able to visit the Museum of Science, Children's Museum, MFA, Holocaust Museum, etc...you'd miss out on the local headquarters to the region's 6 largest banks...you'd only be able to manage your money with 2 out of the 10 largest money management firms...

The fact is that relative to the remainder of the Houston region, downtown's job base isn't growing as quickly, and strickn's reasons aren't too far off. And its residential base is severely constrained, especially now that land prices are once again driven by office space as a highest and best use. Even if you were to see ten new towers on the same scale as Finger's, it's a drop in the regional bucket.

Moreover, the data that I've seen indicates that strickn is correct that people really dislike having to cross through downtown during a commute. For instance, TMC employees are very heavily concentrated in Pearland, Sugar Land, and Missouri City, with relatively few from suburbs opposite downtown or the West Loop. This shouldn't come as much of a surprise.

And while a dot density map showing the concentration of persons with master's degrees or greater does indicate a concentration in Clear Lake, it is relatively isolated compared to the greater mass whose center is just west of the Galleria area. In that context, downtown's office market really is on the eastern periphery. I don't mean to discount the eastern part of our metro area for economic activity...but that kind of activity and those kinds of households just don't tend to play off of and support downtown as greatly as do the western sectors. In fact, just about the whole Pasadena/Deer Park/Baytown/Clear Lake sector may as well be its own economy...that's just how clearly the industries are demarcated as seperate from the rest of our region.

[strickn]

Yeah if I had to make a guess it would be the Boymelgreen development. It's in the right area as described by ENGcons and we know that Boymelgreen has the financial capacity to put something like this together. I thought I had read that initially they were going to do two 30 story condo towers on that Richmond/Post Oak property. Perhaps they're reconsidering.

Here's the thread from when they bought the property... http://www.houstonarchitecture.info/haif/i...lgreen&st=0

If that turns out to be the tract, hopefully they (or any high-rise developer who eventually breaks ground here) are able to line up the big 'un on center with the axis defined by Transco and its waterwall.

Edited January 21, 2008 by strickn

[six]

If that turns out to be the tract, hopefully they (or any high-rise developer who eventually breaks ground here) are able to line up the big 'un on center with the axis defined by Transco and its waterwall.

the development will be called the San Felipe, not to be confused with the Street. Boymelgreen could added a few floors to compete with the Turnberry, and other new developments. I guess we will wait an see.

[King Owl]

Reading back through some of the press releases, it looks like Boymelgreen may be trying to sell part of the land they bought (specifically at Richmond and Post Oak). http://www.bizjournals.com/houston/stories...ry2.html?page=1. Perhaps it's not Boymelgreen who is considering this big project.

Also, referencing Houston Development's post around the McCue site, I'm guessing that's Faulkner's project which was rumored to be a 40 story condo tower...

Houston Development, are you in a mood to share any info with us?

[houston-development]

Reading back through some of the press releases, it looks like Boymelgreen may be trying to sell part of the land they bought (specifically at Richmond and Post Oak). http://www.bizjournals.com/houston/stories...ry2.html?page=1. Perhaps it's not Boymelgreen who is considering this big project.

Also, referencing Houston Development's post around the McCue site, I'm guessing that's Faulkner's project which was rumored to be a 40 story condo tower...

Houston Development, are you in a mood to share any info with us?

this is eng's rodeo, so you'll have to ask him.

and yes, boymel did put their site at richmond and post oak under contract.

dont personally know if they closed or not but sounds like they did.

[BigSky]

I also originally believed that West Ward expansion was ultimately hurting Downtown Houston's chances of ever gaining a strong residential market. However, I was in a class that talked about the city of houston and the professor said something that I thought was pretty profound. He stated that you shoul dthink of Houston as not as Dowtown, Uptown and Medical Center in competition, that golden triangle should be viewed as the Manhatten of Houston. It is roughly the same size and if you look at the how Houston is shaping, up Central Houston is really within that Triangle. That does put DT Houston on the east side, but if you fast forward about 10-15 years from now, I think you will see 3rd and 5th Ward occupied by dowtown workers and Medical Center Workers. In addition, traffic will squeeze growth in the Galleria area, even though Uptown is trying to rival DT Houston, the infrastructure is not there to support 2-3 80/60 story buildings respectively. Even with the rail system, that area is already swamped with traffic today and if you clog up the arteries of Richmond it would be unrelentless gridlock.

[NewMND]

I think of that golden triangle, including Greenway, as "The Core," and as long as buildings are built in the core instead of way out some other direction, that I'm cool with it. If they start building really talls in Westchase or wherever, then that will be annoying. I'd prefer a supertall in downtown, but I'll be fine with it anywhere in the core, I suppose.

[roadrunner]

Building an 80 story tower at the corner of Richmond and Post Oak does sound pretty dumb just thinking about the traffic. I'm an advocate of the rail, but until the network is really extended throughout the metro, it will just make that area even worse (assuming this thing gets built).

[ricco67]

Building an 80 story tower at the corner of Richmond and Post Oak does sound pretty dumb just thinking about the traffic. I'm an advocate of the rail, but until the network is really extended throughout the metro, it will just make that area even worse (assuming this thing gets built).

THAT is the key, with the major development that is occurring in uptown, as long as the Richmond/uptown rail is completed towards the middle or end of the completion of a number of these projects, then things should be fine. Someone that will eventually build a garage near a popular rail station is going to make a mint.

[roadrunner]

THAT is the key, with the major development that is occurring in uptown, as long as the Richmond/uptown rail is completed towards the middle or end of the completion of a number of these projects, then things should be fine. Someone that will eventually build a garage near a popular rail station is going to make a mint.

I think the fact that it will be even more congested than it is now will force people to use the rail after a transfer from a P&R, so if anything I guess it will encourage more people to be vocal about commuter rail to Cypress, Sugarland, Galveston, etc., which is something the city desperately needs.

I know that if in 2011 we have all of this stuff in Uptown, I will avoid driving there at all costs.

[Trae]

Part of Uptown's line will be in a subway, so maybe METRO extends it south past San Felipe and towards the Galleria.

[ricco67]

Many locals go there only if they have to or have alternate means of transportation (Taxi, bus, Limo, Hotel Shuttle). What has surprised me over the past few years is how much of a destination the galleria is. I get asked about the galleria more and more over the past few years. If I had the foresight to be able to find a way to document it, a graph would show how much I get asked and the traffic (from my experience) has increased accordingly.

[bkjones98]

I know that if in 2011 we have all of this stuff in Uptown, I will avoid driving there at all costs.

I already avoid Uptown and anything near Highland Village at all cost.

[ENGcons]

No real updates on this project that is in its infancy of design development. All I know is that the land is already owned by the group, and the group is out of Dubai.

[swtsig]

No real updates on this project that is in its infancy of design development. All I know is that the land is already owned by the group, and the group is out of Dubai.

anyone else hear cash registers bursting open?

[ricco67]

The question is, are we going to get one of their more interestingly shaped buildings?

[Trae]

I hope so. We need another unique design.

[Triton]

Well, the company could be from Dubai, but the designer could be American. I'm not saying American architects don't have as much imagination or whatever, but I'm saying just because the company is from Dubai doesn't mean you should expect something fancy.

For example, my father works in a Dubai/Saudi Arabian company called MMI, but the building is simply a large stucco 14-story box near the Galleria.

[bachanon]

Well, the company could be from Dubai, but the designer could be American. I'm not saying American architects don't have as much imagination or whatever, but I'm saying just because the company is from Dubai doesn't mean you should expect something fancy.

For example, my father works in a Dubai/Saudi Arabian company called MMI, but the building is simply a large stucco 14-story box near the Galleria.

many of the cool buildings in dubai are designed by american firms. the fact is, those holding the purse strings in dubai do not have a problem paying for an interesting/cutting edge design.

unfortunately, the cost of building here will be exponentially more than building in dubai. you're looking at workers in dubai getting $5 a day versus $6 an hour for our least paid workers.

[NewMND]

If the group is out of Dubai, then this rumored project has a good chance of happening, I would think. They seem to build whatever they want over in Dubai, without worrying about cost or if they even have a tenant. Hopefully they decide they also want to invest in building a supertall in downtown. It's a good time for them to buy property in the states.

[ricco67]

Here is a link to an article on HBJ because lockmat couldn't find this thread.

BTW: Can someone rename this thread?

[bkjones98]

Here is a link to an article on HBJ because lockmat couldn't find this thread.

BTW: Can someone rename this thread?

Could someone copy and paste the whole article? If copyright is of issue, a contracted summary would be much appreciated.

[ricco67]

The entire article will be allowed in a few days (or is it a couple of weeks?), so you don't have to worry about it.

I haven't been able to get a bugmenot.com password for it.

[bkjones98]

I haven't been able to get a bugmenot.com password for it.

Wow, nice link. That will come in very handy for the NYT, etc. Thanks!