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M Square: Mixed-Use at 3200 Post Oak Blvd


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On 10/29/2021 at 1:00 PM, Urbannizer said:

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If they are building this at the corner of Post Oak and Richmond, think what could be done with the Dillard's site, which is at least twice as desirable, without the freeway interchange stigma and dingy Richmond Ave. surroundings. I think we are going to see a lot of redevelopment along Post Oak Blvd. in the next 10 years.

 

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55 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

If they are building this at the corner of Post Oak and Richmond, think what could be done with the Dillard's site, which is at least twice as desirable, without the freeway interchange stigma and dingy Richmond Ave. surroundings. I think we are going to see a lot of redevelopment along Post Oak Blvd. in the next 10 years.

 

The Dillard’s site is subject to the sweetheart Joske’s ground lease. I think it runs through the 2040’s. It’s not out of the question to buy out, but certainly an impediment to development as long as Dillard’s doesn’t go bust.

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Yeah, even if they didn't have such a great least I don't think corporate Dillards would want to let that space go. Free advertising b/c of proximity to the highway, it was sporadically busy during COVID (maybe people didn't want to go into the actual mall), and it has easily accessible parking. You'd prolly have to pry it from their cold dead hands (given how brick and mortar retail has been tho...). When I worked at Macy's a while back, they internally would say that Galleria Macy's was at least a top 5 earner in the country. I'm sure Dillard's has similar internal numbers for that site. 

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5 hours ago, X.R. said:

Yeah, even if they didn't have such a great least I don't think corporate Dillards would want to let that space go. Free advertising b/c of proximity to the highway, it was sporadically busy during COVID (maybe people didn't want to go into the actual mall), and it has easily accessible parking. You'd prolly have to pry it from their cold dead hands (given how brick and mortar retail has been tho...). When I worked at Macy's a while back, they internally would say that Galleria Macy's was at least a top 5 earner in the country. I'm sure Dillard's has similar internal numbers for that site. 

Oh it is. From what I understand that store is generally one of the best performing Dillard's in the entire country. That seems to be the case with stores in and around the Galleria in general.

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15 hours ago, X.R. said:

Yeah, even if they didn't have such a great least I don't think corporate Dillards would want to let that space go. Free advertising b/c of proximity to the highway, it was sporadically busy during COVID (maybe people didn't want to go into the actual mall), and it has easily accessible parking. You'd prolly have to pry it from their cold dead hands (given how brick and mortar retail has been tho...). When I worked at Macy's a while back, they internally would say that Galleria Macy's was at least a top 5 earner in the country. I'm sure Dillard's has similar internal numbers for that site. 

Dillard's doesn't have to let the space go. They could partner with a developer to redevelop with four 50-story towers and a Dillard's at the bottom.

 

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6 hours ago, H-Town Man said:

Dillard's doesn't have to let the space go. They could partner with a developer to redevelop with four 50-story towers and a Dillard's at the bottom.

 

Actually, as it turns out,¬†the title history on this one is convoluted. ¬†I pulled a deed in 1991 to ‚ÄúR. U. Corporation,‚ÄĚ which is listed as the present owner in HCAD. That deed is subject to the 1961 Joske‚Äôs ground lease. The ground lease (Vol. 1402, page 240 of the Harris County Real Property Records) provides for an initial lease term of 35 years and two 20¬†year renewal periods. That would put the lease expiration in the 2030‚Äôs, not in the 2040‚Äôs as I thought.¬†
 

It would be tough for Dillard’s to recoup investment in any towers in that timeframe. 

 

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17 hours ago, Big E said:

Oh it is. From what I understand that store is generally one of the best performing Dillard's in the entire country. That seems to be the case with stores in and around the Galleria in general.

I can't speak about Dillard's, but I have a friend in the retail industry who agrees.  Says that the Houston Saks is usually number one, and the Neiman Marcus is top three.  

17 hours ago, Big E said:

Oh it is. From what I understand that store is generally one of the best performing Dillard's in the entire country. That seems to be the case with stores in and around the Galleria in general.

I can't speak about Dillard's, but I have a friend in the retail industry who agrees.  Says that the Houston Saks is usually number one, and the Neiman Marcus is top three.  

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17 hours ago, houstontexasjack said:

Actually, as it turns out,¬†the title history on this one is convoluted. ¬†I pulled a deed in 1991 to ‚ÄúR. U. Corporation,‚ÄĚ which is listed as the present owner in HCAD. That deed is subject to the 1961 Joske‚Äôs ground lease. The ground lease (Vol. 1402, page 240 of the Harris County Real Property Records) provides for an initial lease term of 35 years and two 20¬†year renewal periods. That would put the lease expiration in the 2030‚Äôs, not in the 2040‚Äôs as I thought.¬†
 

It would be tough for Dillard’s to recoup investment in any towers in that timeframe. 

 

If there's this much money involved, it opens the door to creative thinking. The landlord goes to Dillard's and says, "Look, I have this opportunity to put towers on the site, it would help your foot traffic, let's do a lease modification." Dillard's says, "Towers don't really help me, sorry." Landlord says, "Does a lease extension to 2065 help you?" Dillard's says, "Ok, tell me your idea." Landlord says, "You get this footprint in which to rebuild your store and x number of spaces in a parking garage, plus a covered driveway for dropoffs and a nice monument sign on the street." Dillard's says, "I wanna sign that's visible from 610." Landlord says, "Alright." Lease modification is drafted and signed, bulldozers roll in...

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On 11/3/2021 at 10:23 AM, H-Town Man said:

Dillard's doesn't have to let the space go. They could partner with a developer to redevelop with four 50-story towers and a Dillard's at the bottom.

 

Why would we want 4 50 story towers there? 

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23 minutes ago, Ross said:

Why would we want 4 50 story towers there? 

Didn't say we wanted it, said it's something that could happen at that location, given what's happening at Richmond/Post Oak. Developer will build whatever is feasible that can give the highest return to the land. 4x50 may be a bit aggressive, but maybe 50+2x30.

 

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20 hours ago, H-Town Man said:

If there's this much money involved, it opens the door to creative thinking. The landlord goes to Dillard's and says, "Look, I have this opportunity to put towers on the site, it would help your foot traffic, let's do a lease modification." Dillard's says, "Towers don't really help me, sorry." Landlord says, "Does a lease extension to 2065 help you?" Dillard's says, "Ok, tell me your idea." Landlord says, "You get this footprint in which to rebuild your store and x number of spaces in a parking garage, plus a covered driveway for dropoffs and a nice monument sign on the street." Dillard's says, "I wanna sign that's visible from 610." Landlord says, "Alright." Lease modification is drafted and signed, bulldozers roll in...

Seems reasonable.  Department stores are very open in their thinking these days, especially when it comes to real estate.  For some chains, selling or renting their land has been what's gotten them through tough times.

A tower-department store partnership isn't unprecedented.  The 63-story Olympic Centre in Chicago was a partnership between a real estate developer and Neiman Marcus. (Link goes to HAIF's former sister site.)

Heck, Vornado started as a discount department store chain.  I got my clothes there when I was a kid.  Now it's a massive REIT that owns some of the most high-profile office buildings in the nation.

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2 hours ago, editor said:

Seems reasonable.  Department stores are very open in their thinking these days, especially when it comes to real estate.  For some chains, selling or renting their land has been what's gotten them through tough times.

A tower-department store partnership isn't unprecedented.  The 63-story Olympic Centre in Chicago was a partnership between a real estate developer and Neiman Marcus. (Link goes to HAIF's former sister site.)

Heck, Vornado started as a discount department store chain.  I got my clothes there when I was a kid.  Now it's a massive REIT that owns some of the most high-profile office buildings in the nation.

Interestingly, that Neiman Marcus building was very recently put up for sale (it's not now, and I don't think has ever been, owned by Neiman Marcus; they just have a lease).  The Olympia Centre model is one which could be done with the Post Oak Dillards without demolishing the current building, because the Neiman Marcus building is not really in the base of the tower; it's more like a separate building adjoining the base of the tower.

 

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4 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

Interestingly, that Neiman Marcus building was very recently put up for sale (it's not now, and I don't think has ever been, owned by Neiman Marcus; they just have a lease).  The Olympia Centre model is one which could be done with the Post Oak Dillards without demolishing the current building, because the Neiman Marcus building is not really in the base of the tower; it's more like a separate building adjoining the base of the tower.

 

Is Dillard's still utilizing the full building? Lots of department stores have shrunk within their buildings and filled space with back offices or storage.

 

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51 minutes ago, H-Town Man said:

Is Dillard's still utilizing the full building? Lots of department stores have shrunk within their buildings and filled space with back offices or storage.

 

A lot of them are using the extra space for last-mile deliveries, and online/curbside fulfillment.  Because the older ones are often in prime locations, a few are experimenting with leasing out the extra space to third-party fulfillment companies.

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A bit off subject but related... What happened to the giant rings with the street names that used to hang at the Post Oak/Galleria area intersections. They were removed before the reconstruction for the bus rapid transit. Is there a plan to bring them back? They were a classy part of the area and tied in with all of the other metallic elements along Post Oak.

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30 minutes ago, InTheLoopFromNYC said:

A bit off subject but related... What happened to the giant rings with the street names that used to hang at the Post Oak/Galleria area intersections. They were removed before the reconstruction for the bus rapid transit. Is there a plan to bring them back? They were a classy part of the area and tied in with all of the other metallic elements along Post Oak.

Oh, wow.  I didn't even know those were taken out.  I haven't made it out to the Galleria area yet.  So sad; they were iconic.  People I met across the country knew about them.  Not regular people.  Architecture enthusiasts.  But still, people.

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5 hours ago, InTheLoopFromNYC said:

A bit off subject but related... What happened to the giant rings with the street names that used to hang at the Post Oak/Galleria area intersections. They were removed before the reconstruction for the bus rapid transit. Is there a plan to bring them back? They were a classy part of the area and tied in with all of the other metallic elements along Post Oak.

 

4 hours ago, editor said:

Oh, wow.  I didn't even know those were taken out.  I haven't made it out to the Galleria area yet.  So sad; they were iconic.  People I met across the country knew about them.  Not regular people.  Architecture enthusiasts.  But still, people.

I've been wondering the same thing. I think they will eventually go back up but don't know when. 

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somewhere on here (i think the Post Oak Blvd redevelopment thread) there was a link to an article i believe that stated they were being taken down during the Post Oak Blvd construction but not to worry...that they were being cleaned and shined like brand new and would be back up.) My thought is that once Aspire has the sidewalk done they will maybe then put them all up at once (some are still up btw).

anyway i miss and love them too! they are like Uptown UFOs! 

here is a related article: 

https://www.click2houston.com/news/2017/04/24/scheduled-maintenance-on-post-oak-circular-sign-leads-to-industrial-equipment-accident/

but can't seem to find the one about polishing them and putting them back up...i remember it even said "not to worry they will be back"

 

 

Edited by gene
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54 minutes ago, gene said:

somewhere on here (i think the Post Oak Blvd redevelopment thread) there was a link to an article i believe that stated they were being taken down during the Post Oak Blvd construction but not to worry...that they were being cleaned and shined like brand new and would be back up.) My thought is that once Aspire has the sidewalk done they will maybe then put them all up at once (some are still up btw).

anyway i miss and love them too! they are like Uptown UFOs! 

here is a related article: 

https://www.click2houston.com/news/2017/04/24/scheduled-maintenance-on-post-oak-circular-sign-leads-to-industrial-equipment-accident/

but can't seem to find the one about polishing them and putting them back up...i remember it even said "not to worry they will be back"

 

 

Thanks Gene, and yes, I remember that article - the amazing thing is that its from over 4 1/2 years ago! I was concerned that given the length of time, maybe something cropped up that prevented them from reinstalling the rings. Hopefully we'll see them back in 2022 - they really are iconic!

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On 11/15/2021 at 12:50 PM, gene said:

somewhere on here (i think the Post Oak Blvd redevelopment thread) there was a link to an article i believe that stated they were being taken down during the Post Oak Blvd construction but not to worry...that they were being cleaned and shined like brand new and would be back up.) My thought is that once Aspire has the sidewalk done they will maybe then put them all up at once (some are still up btw).

anyway i miss and love them too! they are like Uptown UFOs! 

here is a related article: 

https://www.click2houston.com/news/2017/04/24/scheduled-maintenance-on-post-oak-circular-sign-leads-to-industrial-equipment-accident/

but can't seem to find the one about polishing them and putting them back up...i remember it even said "not to worry they will be back"

 

 


So glad to hear that.. I was recently wondering about this/was afraid they fell victim to the BRT.

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 4 months later...
Posted (edited)

^^^ i was under the impression that they were already constructing the final design and were a little slowed via COVID... what happened?  oh, wait... CAL MCNAIR...

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Edited by monarch
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2 hours ago, HOUCAJUN said:

If Urbannizer is asking questions about a site, then that's not a good sign.

Even worse sign is the current economic conditions/recession were possibly heading into..

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10 hours ago, houstontexasjack said:

On the advice of Jack Easterby, McNair Interests has traded the Rosewood Hotel anchored tower for 12-story stucco Hampton Inn.

with a ground level Mattress Firm! 

we all win! 

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