River Oaks District: Mixed-Use Development At 4444 Westheimer Rd. & 4702 Westheimer Rd.

[monarch]

Monarch is it true you're an alien? Also since I'm on mobile can a mod take a look at this? Butthurt and racist...

hey, i'll play..

it's friday, right?

[monarch]

this is 100% spot on. it's not that it can't work, it's that there is no precedent in Houston on projects like this to base it on. capital sources for these types of projects need verification that the numbers they need to achieve will justify the project costs before moving forward - unfortunately for us, those comps do not exist in Houston. sure it's easy to look around and say with confidence that of course a project like a ritz would work but without hard data validating that notion it will never get past the investment committee.

 

what i'm trying to say is don't hold your breath on a ritz coming anytime soon.

swtsig, you know that you are like EF HUTTON.  whenever you speak, we tend to stop.. look.. and listen.  however, once again may i ask, does your aforementioned statement incur that dallas is so much more significant than houston, that they can acquire all of these first rate luxury brands (with seemingly reckless abandon).  i mean i can certainly comprehend what you are hereby stating... however, if what you are hereby espousing is indeed correct, then is dallas considered the unparalleled super center of texas?  heck, even austin has a w hotel, along with many more luxury brands being constructed. therefore, just where on earth does this leave houston... the largest city within the state of texas, and the fourth largest city within these united states? 

[htownproud]

i will preface this by saying i know nothing about the hotel industry, but my educated guess is that you need to know your hotel will be on average x% full at an average rate of $y/night.  the problem houston faces is that the hotels will be very full monday through thursday night (hence why we are "booming"), but almost empty over the weekend.  it is tough to make your numbers with three empty nights a week.  

 

austin is more of a tourist town and with the legislature, it makes sense that luxury brands could make their numbers there.  dallas is harder to explain.  is it more of a tourist destination?  

[Nucleareaction]

i will preface this by saying i know nothing about the hotel industry, but my educated guess is that you need to know your hotel will be on average x% full at an average rate of $y/night.  the problem houston faces is that the hotels will be very full monday through thursday night (hence why we are "booming"), but almost empty over the weekend.  it is tough to make your numbers with three empty nights a week.  

 

austin is more of a tourist town and with the legislature, it makes sense that luxury brands could make their numbers there.  dallas is harder to explain.  is it more of a tourist destination?  

 

Perhaps when those hotels moved into Dallas, it was more of an executive and white-collar city whereas Houston was a working-class city?

[HTOWN LIVE]

Perhaps when those hotels moved into Dallas, it was more of an executive and white-collar city whereas Houston was a working-class city?

Dallas and Houston are about the same as far as tourism. The difference is that whereas Dallas craves attention and goes after flashy ritz and glitz, Houston is undaunted and let's the market/demand make it happen. For example, the Houston Galleria is drenched in luxury, and didn't ask for more. But explosive growth, especially Houston's rich getting even richer, has caused an insatiable demand for even more luxury...hence, River Oaks District. Houston is clearly one of the top 5 cities in America for luxury...because of its size and its extraordinary oil wealth and economy.

Dallas, on the other hand, works overtime seeking and focusing on it.

Those hotels are definitely coming, and both will have to be very impressive, as the rich here are filthy rich and the economy is now demanding they come...which means their Houston locations will be off the charts luxurious.

Edited October 11, 2014 by HTOWN LIVE

[bachanon]

(thinking as i type, don't shoot me)

 

dallas has a huge fashion marketplace, and lots of good PR.  many buyers for interior design, clothing and accessories go to dallas for shows and to buy merchandise for their stores.  http://dallasmarketcenter.com/  over 200,000 buyers from around the world visit dallas market center annually.

that said, houston's panache is on a high-speed upward trajectory that, i fear, will surpass dallas eventually.

 

are we ready for a "keep houston down-to-earth" campaign anyone?

 

if landing W hotels and Ritz hotels require that houston have a different personality, i'd rather not have them. 

it's true that houston has been predominately a working class city; many of houston's movers and shakers in the past would never darken the door of neiman marcus.  energy sector folks tend towards less flash more cash.  george and cynthia mitchell are prime examples.  if the guys at the top wouldn't pay for an executive suite at a posh hotel, you can bet their middle management will not want a flashy hotel on their expense reports.

the same cannot be said for the advertising industry, fashion industry; the see and be seen industries thrive on being in the hot places.  not a criticism, just an observation.

with all of the international money flowing into houston, increasing tourism, luxury homes and high rises, it seems as though we could support more trendy hotel chains.  i second the previous comment that we have bits and pieces of walkable high dollar areas scattered about town.  downtown or uptown would most likely suit a W or similar hotelier. inside the loop at 610 would not be my first choice.  i would want to be near those shiny chrome arches in uptown or near rail lines connecting the med center, museum district and downtown; a discovery green locale or something at the edge of downtown on buffalo bayou, near the theater district.

 

concerning the river oaks district; is it an island unto itself?  is it interacting/interconnected with neighborhoods and nearby shopping centers?  it's important that all of these mixed-use developments CONNECT seemlessly with the surrounding area.  it looks like many developments such as this simply turn their backs to homes and apartment complexes or put up walls.  it's sad to see a "walkable" district built with no sidewalks connecting with the street or surrounding neighborhoods.

[HTOWN LIVE]

(thinking as i type, don't shoot me)

dallas has a huge fashion marketplace, and lots of good PR. many buyers for interior design, clothing and accessories go to dallas for shows and to buy merchandise for their stores. http://dallasmarketcenter.com/ over 200,000 buyers from around the world visit dallas market center annually.

that said, houston's panache is on a high-speed upward trajectory that, i fear, will surpass dallas eventually.

are we ready for a "keep houston down-to-earth" campaign anyone?

if landing W hotels and Ritz hotels require that houston have a different personality, i'd rather not have them.

it's true that houston has been predominately a working class city; many of houston's movers and shakers in the past would never darken the door of neiman marcus. energy sector folks tend towards less flash more cash. george and cynthia mitchell are prime examples. if the guys at the top wouldn't pay for an executive suite at a posh hotel, you can bet their middle management will not want a flashy hotel on their expense reports.

the same cannot be said for the advertising industry, fashion industry; the see and be seen industries thrive on being in the hot places. not a criticism, just an observation.

with all of the international money flowing into houston, increasing tourism, luxury homes and high rises, it seems as though we could support more trendy hotel chains. i second the previous comment that we have bits and pieces of walkable high dollar areas scattered about town. downtown or uptown would most likely suit a W or similar hotelier. inside the loop at 610 would not be my first choice. i would want to be near those shiny chrome arches in uptown or near rail lines connecting the med center, museum district and downtown; a discovery green locale or something at the edge of downtown on buffalo bayou, near the theater district.

concerning the river oaks district; is it an island unto itself? is it interacting/interconnected with neighborhoods and nearby shopping centers? it's important that all of these mixed-use developments CONNECT seemlessly with the surrounding area. it looks like many developments such as this simply turn their backs to homes and apartment complexes or put up walls. it's sad to see a "walkable" district built with no sidewalks connecting with the street or surrounding neighborhoods.

I agree. And Houston surpassed Dallas on luxury some time ago...but you wouldn't know it because Houston doesn't shout it from the roof tops, as Houston isn't in the fashion business like Dallas; rather, Houston spends more heavily on luxury which has attracted all of the major luxury players from around the world.

[toxtethogrady]

dallas has a huge fashion marketplace, and lots of good PR.

That was the result of efforts by Dallas City fathers to pursue the industry. It has been a perpetual effort for them to chase corporate headquarters and signature projects; they don't have an industry that calves new companies the way the oil industry in Houston does. Even the airport had to be created.

[Houston19514]

The highest RevPAR I can find in any Dallas hotel is the Ritz-Carlton (not surprising).  The highest I can find in Houston is the St. Regis (a flag, by the way, not present in the DFW market).

 

Dallas Ritz-Carlton 1st Q 2014 RevPAR:  $231.71

Houston St. Regis 1st Q 2014 RevPAR:  $216.09

 

Dallas Ritz-Carlton 2nd Q 2014 RevPAR: $268.12

Houston St. Regis 2nd Q 2014 RevPAR:  $230.38

 

There are several hotels in Houston that match or exceed the RevPAR numbers of the W Dallas.

[bobruss]

Bachanon you hit the nail on the head. They also have a much more vibrant movie and commercial film industry which attracts that crowd. Thats also why Austin has a W and all of those trendy boutique hotels, along with the music industry.

[King Owl]

You guys don't get it.  The number one city where Dallas' hotel visitors come from is Houston.  We demand excellent hotels.  The number one city where Houston's visitors come from is Dallas -- they're fine with lesser hotels.

 

case closed

 

[HTOWN LIVE]

The highest RevPAR I can find in any Dallas hotel is the Ritz-Carlton (not surprising). The highest I can find in Houston is the St. Regis (a flag, by the way, not present in the DFW market).

Dallas Ritz-Carlton 1st Q 2014 RevPAR: $231.71

Houston St. Regis 1st Q 2014 RevPAR: $216.09

Dallas Ritz-Carlton 2nd Q 2014 RevPAR: $268.12

Houston St. Regis 2nd Q 2014 RevPAR: $230.38

There are several hotels in Houston that match or exceed the RevPAR numbers of the W Dallas.

And trumping all of these with the highest numbers in the state is the luxurious Hotel Granduca Houston (another flag absent in Dallas although opening soon in Austin)...but you wouldn't know it because Houston doesn't shout it from the rooftops as flashy (please look-at-me, please pick-me) Dallas would.

Again, Houston is not in the business of chasing/seeking glitz, tv/PR, ritz or fluff, etc.

Ritz and W are nice, but their levels of luxury are represented by other brands here, and more hotels at every level are either under construction or have announced. But when those 2 decide on a location here, we'll certainly welcome them to the party.

Dallas chases/seeks it. Houston doesn't have to do that. That's not Houston's style...it comes to Houston, or Houston will create it.

Edited October 11, 2014 by HTOWN LIVE

[HTOWN LIVE]

Bachanon you hit the nail on the head. They also have a much more vibrant movie and commercial film industry which attracts that crowd. Thats also why Austin has a W and all of those trendy boutique hotels, along with the music industry.

But Austin does not have any Westin's, and neither Austin nor Dallas have a Marriott Marquis. And Houston certainly doesn't obsess over commercials/movie, film/music industry approval or favor. When those industries want to feature Houston, they come here and the results are always stellar...but unlike Austin/Dallas, Houston does not chase/seek after pop-culture, either.

[swtsig]

There is no hotel in houston that compares in quality to ritz. Not even close. Lumping W and ritz together also isn't accurate. W is a clear notch below the ritz.

I'll repeat what I have been told very matter of factly - ritz isn't happening. The issue isn't reveue per room it's the rate they need to achieve to make the project feasible. Even with the addition of condos they are struggling to make it work.

W is working in uptown park. There's also a cool boutique hotel working in montrose.

[SMF]

@swtsig

Could you please provide an example of inside info that you have shared with HAIF that was later verified to be correct? Thank you.

[HTOWN LIVE]

There is no hotel in houston that compares in quality to ritz. Not even close. Lumping W and ritz together also isn't accurate. W is a clear notch below the ritz.

I'll repeat what I have been told very matter of factly - ritz isn't happening. The issue isn't reveue per room it's the rate they need to achieve to make the project feasible. Even with the addition of condos they are struggling to make it work.

W is working in uptown park. There's also a cool boutique hotel working in montrose.

And I'll repeat, Ritz not happening is not a problem. Houston has been there, done that...the St. Regis trumped Ritz in Houston. The St. Regis trumps Ritz everywhere. The Ritz is not the standard. Having stayed at several Ritz hotels around the world I assure you that many of their properties are not up to par. Several hotels in Houston surpass them. As for the South, their property in Dallas, and all 3 in Atlanta are weak traditional granny-looking bores. There are a couple in South Florida that Houston couldn't top, but otherwise the Ritz has lost a lot of luster.

As for W, again, Houston has better...we would welcome it, but certainly wouldn't miss it.

...no hotel in Houston that compares to ritz? You're obviously referring to Houston County, Georgia, as Houston, TX, has several.

[monarch]

(htown live)

Those hotels are definitely coming, and both will have to be very impressive, as the rich here are filthy rich and the economy is now demanding they come...which means their Houston locations will be off the charts luxurious. 

(swtsig)

I'll repeat what I have been told very matter of factly - ritz isn't happening. The issue isn't reveue per room it's the rate they need to achieve to make the project feasible. Even with the addition of condos they are struggling to make it work.

ok, so this is the strange little conundrum that i am having as per this particular, and yet highly popular issue, we now have two of our most discerning members, currently contradicting one another's most sought after opinions. 

we HAIF stalwarts, surely would like to hereby believe... that both aforementioned members are extremely credible as per this particular RITZ vs W HOTEL issue.  however, what can we do if both of our most knowledgeable 

insiders are currently constantly contradicting the most key issue, upon whether or not the hotels are actually arriving to houston.

surely, both of you gentlemen can see just how incomprehensible this issue is beginning to become.

it is indeed evident, that both members are relying heavily as per their individual sources vs resources.  however, we would like to acquire the facts... or something very close...

 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2014 by monarch

[HTOWN LIVE]

We can resolve this now. I've seen the plans drafted by the city regarding the Ritz and W...it's all still being negotiated. If for some reason they don't go up (which is unlikely now as the Houston economy is a winner and ripe for them), Houston wouldn't miss a beat. It's as simple as that.

[Houston?]

There is no hotel in houston that compares in quality to ritz. Not even close. Lumping W and ritz together also isn't accurate. W is a clear notch below the ritz.

I'll repeat what I have been told very matter of factly - ritz isn't happening. The issue isn't reveue per room it's the rate they need to achieve to make the project feasible. Even with the addition of condos they are struggling to make it work.

W is working in uptown park. There's also a cool boutique hotel working in montrose.

 

But cities like St. Louis, Charlotte, and Cleveland have a Ritz Carlton.

[citykid09]

Here is what I hope hapens, the W and Ritz keep ignoring Houston, Houston brings in its own highend brands (already happening) and other highend brands, W and Ritz start to notice and want in so they build something here to top them all.

 

 

How does Atlanta make 3 Ritz Hotels and 3 W Hotels work? If they can have 6 total, Houston can surely make the numbers work for 1 or 2.

[HTOWN LIVE]

But cities like St. Louis, Charlotte, and Cleveland have a Ritz Carlton.

And Ritz is the only luxury hotel in each market. Charlotte is relatively new, but St. Louis and Cleveland are dated and granny-esqe, as are many of their properties. These 2 were built way back in the 80's when the Ritz was in Houston. Houston has 30 year old luxury hotels much more fabulous than any of these.

That's why I said whatever they decide to build in Houston has to be some of their best work and undeniably impressive, or luxury spoiled Houston will yawn.

[HTOWN LIVE]

Here is what I hope hapens, the W and Ritz keep ignoring Houston, Houston brings in its own highend brands (already happening) and other highend brands, W and Ritz start to notice and want in so they build something here to top them all.

How does Atlanta make 3 Ritz Hotels and 3 W Hotels work? If they can have 6 total, Houston can surely make the numbers work for 1 or 2.

Because it really isn't working. Atlanta is a lot like Dallas, over the years (in an effort to try to keep up with and outdo Houston) they've both overbuilt and use intense hype machines...but behind the curtain they're struggling. Edited October 11, 2014 by HTOWN LIVE

[SMF]

@ HTOWN LIVE - If you had to take a wild guess, when would you predict that we would hear an official announcement for a Ritz and/or W? Before 2015? Thank you.

Edited October 11, 2014 by SMF

[HTOWN LIVE]

@ HTOWN LIVE - If you had to take a wild guess. When would you predict that we would hear an official announcement for a Ritz and/or W? Before 2015? Thank you.

Soon after Hotel Alessandra gets going. That is a major part of the catalyst that will begin another wave of announcements of transformative developments downtown. A lot of delay centers around parking and the current boom which has driven the price of lots/sites downtown sky high. Most of that should be resolved by the end of the year. So by the end of the year or 1stQ 2015.

[Howard Huge]

Here is what I hope hapens, the W and Ritz keep ignoring Houston, Houston brings in its own highend brands (already happening) and other highend brands, W and Ritz start to notice and want in so they build something here to top them all.

How does Atlanta make 3 Ritz Hotels and 3 W Hotels work? If they can have 6 total, Houston can surely make the numbers work for 1 or 2.

This ^

It doesnt make any sense. I dont buy it.

[Fortune]

Wasn't the Ritz going to BLVD Place prior to the recession? With renderings released and all ? So why now is it so hard to believe that they will come to Houston ? Why could they make the numbers work then but not now ?

[HTOWN LIVE]

Wasn't the Ritz going to BLVD Place prior to the recession? With renderings released and all ? So why now is it so hard to believe that they will come to Houston ? Why could they make the numbers work then but not now ?

That was 7/8 years ago. It's a different Houston now. It's really amazing. A litany of new development has changed everything, especially the costs. The Ritz is going to have to spend a lot more money now to return to Houston. Houston benefits, because it's viewed as a major investment now (they'll have to make a statement), so they'll do whatever it takes to impress and that means a fabulous exceptional Ritz, not just traditional luxury (Houston won't respect that). They have to do something monumental in a city well acquainted with luxury or risk being overlooked in the midst of all the new towers and luxury developments going up. Indeed, a tall order.

Edited October 12, 2014 by HTOWN LIVE

[Houston19514]

And trumping all of these with the highest numbers in the state is the luxurious Hotel Granduca Houston (another flag absent in Dallas although opening soon in Austin)...but you wouldn't know it because Houston doesn't shout it from the rooftops as flashy (please look-at-me, please pick-me) Dallas would.

Again, Houston is not in the business of chasing/seeking glitz, tv/PR, ritz or fluff, etc.

 

Good catch.  I overlooked the Granduca (although it bears mentioning that the Granduca is a rather unique hotel, having only 30 suites).

 

 

Dallas Ritz-Carlton 1st Q 2014 RevPAR:  $231.71

Houston St. Regis 1st Q 2014 RevPAR:  $216.09

Houston Granduca 1st Q 2014 RevPAR:  $967.70

 

Dallas Ritz-Carlton 2nd Q 2014 RevPAR: $268.12

Houston St. Regis 2nd Q 2014 RevPAR:  $230.38

Houston Granduca 2nd Q 2014 RevPAR:  $1,239.95

[swtsig]

Good catch. I overlooked the Granduca (although it bears mentioning that the Granduca is a rather unique hotel, having only 30 suites).

Dallas Ritz-Carlton 1st Q 2014 RevPAR: $231.71

Houston St. Regis 1st Q 2014 RevPAR: $216.09

Houston Granduca 1st Q 2014 RevPAR: $967.70

Dallas Ritz-Carlton 2nd Q 2014 RevPAR: $268.12

Houston St. Regis 2nd Q 2014 RevPAR: $230.38

Houston Granduca 2nd Q 2014 RevPAR: $1,239.95

not comparable... Not even a little. No group looking to develop a large scale luxury hotel would use a 30 room boutique as a comp. besides, as I mentioned before the issue at hand is room rate.

As much as htown live would have you believe houston is awash in luxury it's exactly the reason that houston doesn't have ANY luxury hotels comparable to a new ritz that is the problem.

[HTOWN LIVE]

not comparable... Not even a little. No group looking to develop a large scale luxury hotel would use a 30 room boutique as a comp. besides, as I mentioned before the issue at hand is room rate.

As much as htown live would have you believe houston is awash in luxury it's exactly the reason that houston doesn't have ANY luxury hotels comparable to a new ritz that is the problem.

You're obviously delusional. You've lost the argument, we've all moved on.