SMF Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 What's the likelihood that the substation across from ES could be relocated one day to a less visible, less valuable location? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fkp5 Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I hope they both come downtown. The lot bounded by Dallas, La Branch, Lamar, and Austin (the last lot available with views of Discovery Green) would be a great spot for a Ritz. If it was a Ritz Carlton and residences, that would be perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swtsig Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 ritz is/was apparently looking at azalea court but was struggling to make the #'s work.... word has it that the luxury hoteliers are having a hard time achieving the rate per room night they need in Houston to justify getting projects off the ground. doesn't mean they won't happen, it's jsut not nearly as easy as people think. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Huge Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 ritz is/was apparently looking at azalea court but was struggling to make the #'s work.... word has it that the luxury hoteliers are having a hard time achieving the rate per room night they need in Houston to justify getting projects off the ground. doesn't mean they won't happen, it's jsut not nearly as easy as people think.See thats what I dont get.All you hear about Houston is "boom boom boom!" "The city is on fire!" "Fastest growing city in America" "hottest city in the country" in countless publicationd, new york times, wall street journal, etc etc... And yet...these fancy Hotels "cant make the numbers work"Or "Houston was passed on by a hot new business concept in favor of Milwaukee"Or how much smaller cities like Denver or Atlanta or St louis have lots of things that Houston does not.So is it all bull***t?Is Houston not really as "Hot" as we are always made out to be?? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Huge Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I honestly dont understand why Houston, the 4th largest city in the United States, the second fastest growing city in the U.S., does not have things like an extensive rail network/subway system, any kind of 24 hour scene, the worlds finest Hotels, etc.We are ahead in so many ways, yet far far behind in so many ways, this city is an enigma. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFootsSocks Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 What's the age of our city compared to the other 4? Maybe those others cities are more established? Idk, not trying to make an excuse because you're right, it's defin frustrating Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Huge Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Houston and Chicago are roughly the same age, and Los Angeles didnt become a U.S. municipality until 1850, 14 years after Houston. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Huge Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 But thats besides the point, its the cities SMALLER than Houston getting world class development that frustrates me.Dont get me wrong, Houston is making great progress, but when I hear that hotels "cant make the numbers work" in light of Houstons current boom, it frustrates the hell out of me.What are we doing wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KinkaidAlum Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 We're not doing anything wrong. The first one to take the chance will be rewarded greatly. People though old Marvy was nuts to propose One Park Place. They then thought he was nuts to try and charge the price per square foot. Now, how many are copying him? It'll be the same thing with the luxury hotel brands but we'll need just a bit more patience since it is much harder to get funding for a hotel, especially in an unproven market like Houston. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monarch Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 We're not doing anything wrong. Â The first one to take the chance will be rewarded greatly. Â People though old Marvy was nuts to propose One Park Place. They then thought he was nuts to try and charge the price per square foot. Now, how many are copying him? Â It'll be the same thing with the luxury hotel brands but we'll need just a bit more patience since it is much harder to get funding for a hotel, especially in an unproven market like Houston. kinkaidalum i love you, but unproven market? Â houston? in regards to the ritz carlton, that particular brand, used to call houston home as per many proven years. then due to some strange brand image mishaps, they departed the houston market.. and then comes the St. Regis Hotel. the situation that is just so very vexing to me, is just why does dallas tend to offer so very much significance to these particular luxury brands? what does dallas have (smaller city) that houston is totally devoid of (much larger city and economy) we have always known that dallas seems to always get things done city wise. Â not to mention, they seem to have an incredible global image. however, is this all that it takes to constantly acquire all the best worldwide hotels? Â this is indeed strange.... anyone? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFootsSocks Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Why do you post?Why do you care? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monarch Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Why do you post?why do you breathe? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFootsSocks Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Why do you care if I care?Just trying to wrap my head around the idea that someone could be so butthurt about the way another person posts on a simple architecture board specifically Houston of all places. How and why could you possibly care? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elseed Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 But thats besides the point, its the cities SMALLER than Houston getting world class development that frustrates me.Dont get me wrong, Houston is making great progress, but when I hear that hotels "cant make the numbers work" in light of Houstons current boom, it frustrates the hell out of me.What are we doing wrong?Thats cause we got lame developers and too many backwards people in this city plus so many people in this city has had a anti urban and anti 24hr street life attitude for such a long time....finally we're actually starting to see houston actually be somewhat vibrant and forward thinking...its depressing to go to cities like chicago which is not that much bigger than us population wise and there is so much life in the heart of the city streets at all times...I mean look at the stupid tunnels downtown they've literally ruined streetlife downtown......vibrancy at the streetlevel is so important having a vibrant downtown is so important any city you go to most people want to go downtown because downtown is the center of the city...but Houston....oooooh noooo....no real landmarks...no real tourist attractions...and if you want anything like that in houston people flip out and think you're trying to be like "noooooo yoooork" really at the end of the day its the people...its there mentality...alot of people even though they're generations removed from the country they still want a simple country life in a city with 6 million people in the metro area...personally I feel every great city should have something for everyone...good country area, good suburban area, and a good urban area....but then again its houston...no planning..no vision...he who has the most money can create the city that he/she wants.....also no rail? Hov lanes are worthless...sometimes I feel like this city just recently came out of the stone-age 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monarch Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Thats cause we got lame developers and too many backwards people in this city plus so many people in this city has had a anti urban and anti 24hr street life attitude for such a long time....finally we're actually starting to see houston actually be somewhat vibrant and forward thinking...its depressing to go to cities like chicago which is not that much bigger than us population wise and there is so much life in the heart of the city streets at all times...I mean look at the stupid tunnels downtown they've literally ruined streetlife downtown......vibrancy at the streetlevel is so important having a vibrant downtown is so important any city you go to most people want to go downtown because downtown is the center of the city...but Houston....oooooh noooo....no real landmarks...no real tourist attractions...and if you want anything like that in houston people flip out and think you're trying to be like "noooooo yoooork" really at the end of the day its the people...its there mentality...alot of people even though they're generations removed from the country they still want a simple country life in a city with 6 million people in the metro area...personally I feel every great city should have something for everyone...good country area, good suburban area, and a good urban area....but then again its houston...no planning..no vision...he who has the most money can create the city that he/she wants.....also no rail? Hov lanes are worthless...sometimes I feel like this city just recently came out of the stone-age preach elseed preach! now this is what i want in this debate... passion! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Huge Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Thats cause we got lame developers and too many backwards people in this city plus so many people in this city has had a anti urban and anti 24hr street life attitude for such a long time....finally we're actually starting to see houston actually be somewhat vibrant and forward thinking...its depressing to go to cities like chicago which is not that much bigger than us population wise and there is so much life in the heart of the city streets at all times...I mean look at the stupid tunnels downtown they've literally ruined streetlife downtown......vibrancy at the streetlevel is so important having a vibrant downtown is so important any city you go to most people want to go downtown because downtown is the center of the city...but Houston....oooooh noooo....no real landmarks...no real tourist attractions...and if you want anything like that in houston people flip out and think you're trying to be like "noooooo yoooork" really at the end of the day its the people...its there mentality...alot of people even though they're generations removed from the country they still want a simple country life in a city with 6 million people in the metro area...personally I feel every great city should have something for everyone...good country area, good suburban area, and a good urban area....but then again its houston...no planning..no vision...he who has the most money can create the city that he/she wants.....also no rail? Hov lanes are worthless...sometimes I feel like this city just recently came out of the stone-ageHoward Huge agrees with this entire post. Every word. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucleareaction Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 If you want to directly compare Houston to Chicago, I would venture to guess it goes something like this: Incorporated in 1837, Chicago got its start as a cattle and rail town. Midwest goods were funneled into Chicago and then sent East by rail and water. Their proximity to the East Coast, combined with ease of access to all that frontier land, made it a logical place for entrepreneurs and immigrants to go. Because it developed as a city before the era of cars, the density of Chicago is far greater than what Houston has. Houston on the other hand, was founded in 1836 as a bayou port, but had the far larger Galveston just down the bay. It was a swamp here back then, Galveston was right on the Gulf, and if you wanted to ship goods you'd rather send them via Dallas to Chicago, or via Galveston to New Orleans and beyond. The climate was also a massive challenge, and combined with the ease of traveling deeper into the state, not many people decided to stick around. This meant that while Houston grew as a city, it was not nearly as explosive as Chicago, nor as dense. Finally, when Houston did emerge as a large city, the era of the car had begun and who wants to live cheek-and-jowl if they don't have to? Lastly, zoning. As we all know, you can pretty well build whatever you want, wherever you want in Houston. It's a major reason why we have upwards of 5 business districts. Chicago doesn't suffer from this lack of concentration, and thus has a vibrant downtown that people care to put nice buildings into. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Huge Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 If you want to directly compare Houston to Chicago, I would venture to guess it goes something like this:Incorporated in 1837, Chicago got its start as a cattle and rail town. Midwest goods were funneled into Chicago and then sent East by rail and water. Their proximity to the East Coast, combined with ease of access to all that frontier land, made it a logical place for entrepreneurs and immigrants to go. Because it developed as a city before the era of cars, the density of Chicago is far greater than what Houston has.Houston on the other hand, was founded in 1836 as a bayou port, but had the far larger Galveston just down the bay. It was a swamp here back then, Galveston was right on the Gulf, and if you wanted to ship goods you'd rather send them via Dallas to Chicago, or via Galveston to New Orleans and beyond. The climate was also a massive challenge, and combined with the ease of traveling deeper into the state, not many people decided to stick around. This meant that while Houston grew as a city, it was not nearly as explosive as Chicago, nor as dense. Finally, when Houston did emerge as a large city, the era of the car had begun and who wants to live cheek-and-jowl if they don't have to?Lastly, zoning. As we all know, you can pretty well build whatever you want, wherever you want in Houston. It's a major reason why we have upwards of 5 business districts. Chicago doesn't suffer from this lack of concentration, and thus has a vibrant downtown that people care to put nice buildings into.Pretty much.Ive always felt Houston was a victim of geographic circumstance, stifled by a small waterway, distance from the coast, distance from surrounding cities, and unbearably humid, hot, steamy, sticky, muggy swamp weather.Whereas a place like Manhattan island won the geographic lottery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toxtethogrady Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 (edited) Houston appears to be affected by two different market forces. First, the market has suffered at least a couple of noticeable busts in the early '80s and again in 2001, and all the developers swear they're never going to make that mistake again. Second, Houston has seen an awful lot of little-to-midsize projects - 100 to 300 rooms per hotel and plenty of offerings in the $100-200 a night category. The Marriott Marquis had to be solicited. The downtown residences had to be incentivized. New York and Chicago (and to some extent San Francisco and Miami) have no choice but to build upward; they don't have the room. Houston has the room, so 19 million sf of new office space is getting built in 15-30 story increments all over town. This is why I don't see another supertall anytime soon. World class development just isn't going to happen as long as there are too many opportunities for developers to make money building smaller projects. Edited October 10, 2014 by toxtethogrady 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanize713 Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 I felt the need to add one thing to the debate. I recently visited Singapore and its climate is more hot and humid than Houston. Let me say that again, MORE hot and humid than Houston. The reason I bring this up is because they have indeed managed to create an urban city that is centered around pedestrian life. Before anyone brings up how different their government is I conceded that point. Their government structure and politics are very different. No argument there. The same applies to geography. The whole point is that despite their weather challanges you see people outside all the time walking, eating and enjoying the sites. To add more fuel to the fire they have an extensive tunnel system in downtown and in the neighborhoods.  This tunnel system is of course an extension of the subway system there but I digress.  If Singapore can build an urban oasis in hotter and more humid climate than so can we. My understanding is that once their mindset turned urban it has taken them 20-30 years to get where they are. My hope is that now that we have turned to an urban mindset, though it will take several year if not decades, we will eventually be rewarded with the urban city we have always wanted.  2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timoric Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 (edited) - Edited July 8, 2019 by Timoric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montrose1100 Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 (edited) Waaaaaaaahhhhhhh I want jumbo trons and lasers on the skyline. While we are a major business city with lots of international travelers, unfortunately we are not on the global circuit of known places (media wise. Peasants in the middle east know of Dallas because of a show back in the 80's). and we don't have that zaza-zu. On top of that, What is truly luxurious in this town? Our faux-european strip center complete with surrounding Mediterranean suburban style hotel and condo towers? The tail end of the shopping mall? The Waterway? Sure they are, but they are tiny islands in an ocean of a serious mess. Which is from lack of zoning. Our roads are a joke, and no one travels here for holiday. Domestically, for business, and some mexican folks might travel here, but that's it.  The cheapness (bottom line), and the free market have spoken and they haven't spit up a ritzy hotel chain... yet. Edit: There is a shift in the pride of this city. It's taken its sweet time but it's finally starting to happen. Edited October 10, 2014 by Montrose1100 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toxtethogrady Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 and we don't have that zaza-zu. Â Well, the second Hotel ZaZa appears to be on a slow track, but we still have the first. Â It's Houston vs San Francisco, baby; let no one doubt our mojo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMF Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Isn't Hotel Alessandra going up at Greenstreet supposed to be a luxury hotel on par with Ritz and W? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naviguessor Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 The Ritz and W are not on par with one another. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
citykid09 Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 See thats what I dont get.All you hear about Houston is "boom boom boom!" "The city is on fire!" "Fastest growing city in America" "hottest city in the country" in countless publicationd, new york times, wall street journal, etc etc...And yet...these fancy Hotels "cant make the numbers work"Or "Houston was passed on by a hot new business concept in favor of Milwaukee"Or how much smaller cities like Denver or Atlanta or St louis have lots of things that Houston does not.So is it all bull***t?Is Houston not really as "Hot" as we are always made out to be??  Thats cause we got lame developers and too many backwards people in this city plus so many people in this city has had a anti urban and anti 24hr street life attitude for such a long time....finally we're actually starting to see houston actually be somewhat vibrant and forward thinking...its depressing to go to cities like chicago which is not that much bigger than us population wise and there is so much life in the heart of the city streets at all times...I mean look at the stupid tunnels downtown they've literally ruined streetlife downtown......vibrancy at the streetlevel is so important having a vibrant downtown is so important any city you go to most people want to go downtown because downtown is the center of the city...but Houston....oooooh noooo....no real landmarks...no real tourist attractions...and if you want anything like that in houston people flip out and think you're trying to be like "noooooo yoooork" really at the end of the day its the people...its there mentality...alot of people even though they're generations removed from the country they still want a simple country life in a city with 6 million people in the metro area...personally I feel every great city should have something for everyone...good country area, good suburban area, and a good urban area....but then again its houston...no planning..no vision...he who has the most money can create the city that he/she wants.....also no rail? Hov lanes are worthless...sometimes I feel like this city just recently came out of the stone-age I have been saying what you all have been saying for years on here. I think one of the main problems with attracting these types of hotels in Houston is that they don't know where to go. Every decade or year it seems there is a new city center popping up (Westchase, Greenway Plaza, Energy Coridor, Uptown Galleria etc). Then on top of that NONE of these areas are walkable and touristy. In todays world, these types of hotels want to be in hip cool areas with a vibrant street life. Also in Houston you never know when you are going to get a gas station or a Zone D Erotica moving in next to your high end hotel. These types of hotels want to be in areas where niceness is all around, where the guest at the hotel can look out of the window and see and feel the vibrance of the city and not a sea of parking lots, a freeway, diesel locomotives coming threw every 20 minutes and drive thru fast food restaurants. Take a look at the W & Ritz Hotels you see in other cities and tell me what area or areas does Houston have to compare where they could locate. I beleive downtown is the best option for these types of hotels because it has much of the structure in place. What downtown is missing though is the residence, the attractions and the subway to bring people into the city without the need for a vehicle. Uptown has potential. I always see people say that you can not be urban without a street grid. Well I have seen many old cities with winding streets that have managed to be very walkable. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFootsSocks Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Monarch is it true you're an alien? Also since I'm on mobile can a mod take a look at this? Butthurt and racist... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swtsig Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 We're not doing anything wrong. The first one to take the chance will be rewarded greatly. People though old Marvy was nuts to propose One Park Place. They then thought he was nuts to try and charge the price per square foot. Now, how many are copying him? It'll be the same thing with the luxury hotel brands but we'll need just a bit more patience since it is much harder to get funding for a hotel, especially in an unproven market like Houston. this is 100% spot on. it's not that it can't work, it's that there is no precedent in Houston on projects like this to base it on. capital sources for these types of projects need verification that the numbers they need to achieve will justify the project costs before moving forward - unfortunately for us, those comps do not exist in Houston. sure it's easy to look around and say with confidence that of course a project like a ritz would work but without hard data validating that notion it will never get past the investment committee. what i'm trying to say is don't hold your breath on a ritz coming anytime soon. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toxtethogrady Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 And it also doesn't help that there's cost inflation here like nowhere else in the country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swtsig Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 And it also doesn't help that there's cost inflation here like nowhere else in the country. Â correct. costs overruns are a serious concern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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