musicman Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 METRO's downtown trolley system was successful for the most part but it was free when introduced--entirely subsidized by METRO/the Feds--but then METRO tried to charge a fare to cover some of the escalating costs and that, along with the opening of METRO Rail, killed the service.Cost isn't what killed the trolleys, METRO did to maximize ridership on the rail. Trolley sure did increase restaurant choices for downtown workers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ V Lawrence Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 ^^^ Yeah, i wish i could be in Houston right now. It seems HOT! Wait 'til 2009 when everything's completed, yo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houstonfella Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Not likely "connected", as the TC development (City Centre) and the Memorial City development are about a 1/2 mile (8-10 blocks roughly) apart geographically. Although, I agree that maybe a limited service trolley (subsidized in part or in whole by the two developments or some shared governing body) could be a winner. If you do that, though, I think you need to charge a fare of some kind from day one. METRO's downtown trolley system was successful for the most part but it was free when introduced--entirely subsidized by METRO/the Feds--but then METRO tried to charge a fare to cover some of the escalating costs and that, along with the opening of METRO Rail, killed the service.I'd charge a basic $0.25/$0.50 fare at the onset so that it doesn't come as a shock to the system and you'd have some form of revenue coming back to you. OK guys. Houston's still the AUTOMOBILE LOVER city. Do the math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamtagon Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Dude, Sweet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwrm4 Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Its awesome they are devolping Cinty Centre so fast, I thought It would be years before they revitalized T&C, I guess it figures with the Katy FWY expansion and all.Let's hope TxDOT has planned for the increased traffic in their end design. And let's hope the Katy freeway is finished before they even start construction on "City Centre". Yesterday at lunch it took me 35 minutes to go north on the BW8 feeder, from Memorial to the I-10 eastbound feeder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Let's hope TxDOT has planned for the increased traffic in their end design. And let's hope the Katy freeway is finished before they even start construction on "City Centre". Yesterday at lunch it took me 35 minutes to go north on the BW8 feeder, from Memorial to the I-10 eastbound feeder.Many here don't believe that widening the katy freeway is a good thing. I do because it is basically the only freeway that has not had a real expansion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProHouston Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Many here don't believe that widening the katy freeway is a good thing. I do because it is basically the only freeway that has not had a real expansion.Except for 290, the new "Katy Freeway." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumapayam Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 Let's hope TxDOT has planned for the increased traffic in their end design. And let's hope the Katy freeway is finished before they even start construction on "City Centre". Yesterday at lunch it took me 35 minutes to go north on the BW8 feeder, from Memorial to the I-10 eastbound feeder.Definately construction traffic, looks like it will only get worse before it gets before.I wonder if you will have your sanity still in 2009? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houstonfella Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 Definately construction traffic, looks like it will only get worse before it gets before.I wonder if you will have your sanity still in 2009? TxDOT is always a decade or two behind in this thing. I am surprised Ms. Gbur still has a job. But, in all fairness, Houston grows and grows and grows and we simply can't keep up with the madness. It is much better than the opposite where cities like Philly dropped from 2 mil to 1 mil in several decades. Guess we'll just get on the freeway for better or for worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricco67 Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 Many here don't believe that widening the katy freeway is a good thing. I do because it is basically the only freeway that has not had a real expansion.If memory serves me correct: The Katy Freeway was upgraded 15 years ago, but the problem was that they didn't do a proper design on it, nor did they take into account on how much growth there would be. There is no consideration for future travel options such as Rail running down the middle (thanks Delay!) to help increase bodies going through. When it finally opens, I see it being clogged almost instantly AND the HOV lanes will be crammed within a year or so after opening. Quite frankly, I see the katy is a failure in design and foresight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 If memory serves me correct: The Katy Freeway was upgraded 15 years ago, but the problem was that they didn't do a proper design on it, nor did they take into account on how much growth there would be. There is no consideration for future travel options such as Rail running down the middle (thanks Delay!) to help increase bodies going through. When it finally opens, I see it being clogged almost instantly AND the HOV lanes will be crammed within a year or so after opening. Quite frankly, I see the katy is a failure in design and foresight.the HOV lane was added yes, but the freeway hasn't been widened is what i was referring to. they forced what they could into the same space. Once the expansion is completed, it will bring long overdue relief to the area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricco67 Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 I have to disagree with you on this one. They added a lane and an HOV, while it's not much of an expansion, it did bring considerable relief for a couple of years. It was the opening of several 'burbs in that area, it was quickly overwhelmed. The way the HOV will be will bring a great amount of relief, the only problem will be enforcement to make sure it doesn't get abused, but even with that, I foresee the HOV being clogged yet again in 2 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 If memory serves me correct: The Katy Freeway was upgraded 15 years ago, but the problem was that they didn't do a proper design on it, nor did they take into account on how much growth there would be. There is no consideration for future travel options such as Rail running down the middle (thanks Delay!) to help increase bodies going through. When it finally opens, I see it being clogged almost instantly AND the HOV lanes will be crammed within a year or so after opening. Quite frankly, I see the katy is a failure in design and foresight.The only readily apparent design flaw is that TXDoT fails to assess projects in a way that accounts for their impacts to the entire transportation system. As a result, for instance, the West Loop is going to be entirely overwhelmed almost instantly, resulting in a backup that affects traffic flow on the Katy. There may also be problems at the Beltway within a short period of time.But that doesn't mean that the freeway is unjustified. Even though the average speed that you and I experience during peak hours may not improve between now and then, the volume of traffic served will most definitely increase, and not just because of job and household growth in the corridor, but because people find it easier to use the freeway rather than ground-level streets that cut through neighborhoods and because people are more willing to travel during times of the day that they previously would've avoided. Those impacts aren't very visible to most users of the Katy Freeway, but they will most certainly be sensed by residents and employees of the surrounding neighborhoods...and they are positive impacts.Oh, and one last thing. If the bidirectional HOV-toll lanes are tolled efficiently, they won't have much congestion. I suspect that they will be, too. After all, what would the incentive be for anyone to take the HOV-toll lanes if there is no time savings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trae Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 Could Westpark be changed into a freeway then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sttombiz Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 after the katy project is finished, will there still be room for a commuter rail? or will it likely have to be raised rail? it boggles me where the row would be found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 Could Westpark be changed into a freeway then?Is it possible? Sure. TXDoT could buy it from HCTRA. Is it going to happen? I give odds at >100 to 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 after the katy project is finished, will there still be room for a commuter rail? or will it likely have to be raised rail? it boggles me where the row would be found.I never really figured that the Katy Freeway would make all that great of a rapid transit corridor in the first place. There are only really a few reasonable stops (N. Post Oak TC, Memorial City, Town & Country, Dairy Ashford, Eldridge, Park Row, and a P&R lot out toward Cinco Ranch), but even among those, the freeway is so wide and the concentration of jobs, retail, and households so scattered that even an expensive and supportive set of enclosed air-conditioned people-moving crosswalks eminating from the stops along the freeway couldn't effectively serve the area and generate enough ridership to make it worthwhile...especially when you consider the lanes that would have to be sacrificed to make the rapid transit possible.A much better solution, in my estimation, is going to be extending LRT from Hillcroft TC towards the Grand Parkway along the remaining Westpark corridor, with plenty of P&R lots, transit centers, and north-south signature bus routes feeding it along the way. Not only does that alignment traverse a more dense area with lower-income residents that are more likely to ride transit, but it would also connect more efficiently to the heart of the rapid transit system as it will exist in the future. Besides, it looks like expanding the number of lanes of toll road in the Westpark corridor in the future wouldn't do a lick of good anyway, as the inner-city freeway system that it connects to is now about maxed-out on capacity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sttombiz Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 you dont think that theres enough rider capacity from energy corridor to memorial city (the new med center) to galleria?the line stops of energy, mc, and the 610 transit center. farther west could be park and ride on kingsland. especially if lines are put down 90, 290, 249. Putting one down 10 would connect the entire west. that is if the other lines are constructed. but of what they say about the new city centre development or even the mc developments I believe that there will be enough capacity. but yes I see how it would be costly to implement one. where is the row? unless they raise or it or strip the center lane ideas but thats not goin to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdude Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 Note merged City Centre project threads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trae Posted February 18, 2007 Share Posted February 18, 2007 Katy Freeway Corridor could easily support commuter rail. You have the 610/Marq*E stop, Memorial City/Town & Country stop, Dairy Ashford stop, Highway 6-Eldridge Park & Ride stop, Park Ten Business Center-Barker Cypress stop, then it could end at the Grand Parkway. It wouldn't pull ridership numbers like it would if it was along what the Westpark Tollway is now, but I think it could pull enough, especially if it went on into Downtown (intermodel station maybe?). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 you dont think that theres enough rider capacity from energy corridor to memorial city (the new med center) to galleria?No, I agree that there's plenty of ridership along the wider I-10 corridor. But...it isn't at all configured in a way that makes for walkable transit. It would require numerous shuttle services to collect riders, and then they either have to walk over the freeway to a guideway running down the middle or there has to be an elevated guideway along one or the other edges of the freeway. It is just a cumbersome and/or expensive alignment to build on and serve.In contrast, rapid transit along Westpark already has a ROW available, doesn't have much of an opportunity cost associated with turning potential highway lanes into a dedicated transit guideway, and the shuttle services could serve not only much of the I-10 corridor, but also a fair bit of southwest Houston. Bang for the buck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasdago Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 Driving by the other day, I noticed that construction is starting to take place at City Centre. Good news! I went to their web page and spotted this from the HBJ:CityCentre explodes with roster of high-end tenantsHouston Business Journal: February 2007Bits and pieces of news about the much-ballyhooed CityCentre development in west Houston have been trickling out for nearly two years. But this week, followers of the project hit an information gusher.Executives with Houston-based Midway Cos., which broke ground on the $500 million CityCentre venture last month, finally revealed details about the mixed-use project Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricco67 Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 A shuttle going to and from citi centre and memorial mall wouldn't be very practical considering some of the congestion on there. Going TO Memorial City Mall from C-Centre would be a bit challenging, even taking the back roads, going TO C-center FROM M-City would be a nightmare because of how they'd have to go around I-10 and BW8 on the FEEDER. The Neighborhood behind C-Center would practically be picking up torches and pitchforks to keep the shuttles from going through their neighborhoods and justifiably so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted February 19, 2007 Author Share Posted February 19, 2007 I-10 missed their opportunity to try commuter rail when they let Union Pacific rip up the tracks and take 'em home.I think they could still do it though, it would have to be elevated though, don't you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricco67 Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 I think it would have been more effective if commuter rail was put on I-10 itself. Even with the new configuration, it might be possible to do it still, but with a great amount of difficulty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pumapayam Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 I have to disagree with you on this one. They added a lane and an HOV, while it's not much of an expansion, it did bring considerable relief for a couple of years. It was the opening of several 'burbs in that area, it was quickly overwhelmed. The way the HOV will be will bring a great amount of relief, the only problem will be enforcement to make sure it doesn't get abused, but even with that, I foresee the HOV being clogged yet again in 2 years.How did they do that, by eating up the shoulder space? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricco67 Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 What part as you asking about?The initial expansion a number of years ago took away the emergency left lane and took up a BIT of land, not much, but a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 A shuttle going to and from citi centre and memorial mall wouldn't be very practical considering some of the congestion on there. Going TO Memorial City Mall from C-Centre would be a bit challenging, even taking the back roads, going TO C-center FROM M-City would be a nightmare because of how they'd have to go around I-10 and BW8 on the FEEDER. The Neighborhood behind C-Center would practically be picking up torches and pitchforks to keep the shuttles from going through their neighborhoods and justifiably so.Not to mention the fact that both area's have traditionally competed with one another for retail dollars. Now they'll be competing in residential as well. Imo, it would take a big sense of community for both sets of leaders to agree to this in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ig2ba Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 TxDOT is always a decade or two behind in this thing. I am surprised Ms. Gbur still has a job. But, in all fairness, Houston grows and grows and grows and we simply can't keep up with the madness. It is much better than the opposite where cities like Philly dropped from 2 mil to 1 mil in several decades. Guess we'll just get on the freeway for better or for worse. It's not that TxDOT didn't plan for congestion at the West Loop. They planned to expand the West Loop back in 1991 - approaching two decades ago. Unfortunately, political opposition (one example: Sheila Jackson Lee) made this untenable at the time. TxDOT recognized the need for a rebuild but could only reconstruct the West Loop as a no-capacity-added project (in order to avoid a more lengthy and another politically-charged debate and approval process). This is why the West Loop still narrows to 8 lanes for about a mile. Cleverly, though, TxDOT appears to have striped for only 8 lanes, but built enough pavement in many places for more lanes. My guess is that they'll try to restripe for 10 lanes in most spots within a few years if/when the traffic becomes unbearable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trae Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 I think it would have been more effective if commuter rail was put on I-10 itself. Even with the new configuration, it might be possible to do it still, but with a great amount of difficulty.I think this is why the ramps were built to be strong enough to support a commuter rail train going down the middle of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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