Pasadena Homeowner Kills Men Burglarizing Neighbor's House

[TJones]

What tape are you listening to? Here's the transcript I've seen:

You obviously haven't heard the tape for yourself yet, quit taking a journalists transcription of the tape for your truth, listen to it for yourself for a change.

There's nothing in there that says they were headed to Joe Horn's house.

That's right, if Joe would have taken your passive action, they would have most likely tried to smash one of his windows in, are you gonna argue that they weren't in his frontyard ?

Again, where are you getting that? He said "Boom! You're dead!", after going outside with a shotgun. There's no telling where they would have gone if Joe Horn hadn't gone outside.

So, we should all just cower in our homes whilest bad guys get to run the streets and do as they please until HOPEFULLY they will just go away, especially if you ignore them ?

What witness?

Joe is the witness, I have heard from 2 sources that the dead punks were shot in the chest. If you have some different info as to where they were shot please share.

Huh? I have no idea what their actions were. What are you talking about?

Exactly, you have NO IDEA and neither did Joe, he could only go by what he had already witnessed from the 2 dead losers.

And? None of this would have happened if lots of things hadn't happened. None of that makes Joe Horn's actions right.

It all starts from what the P.O.S. criminals did first, NOT what Joe did last. You want to be a criminal, there are certain risks involved. One of those risks is a man who thinks he has the right to help protect his neighborhood from thieves, and may kill you with a shotgun.

[Mark F. Barnes]

Actually one was shot point blank in the chest, the other turn to run as he shot and was struck in the side, he managed to make it 75 feet to the mailbox on the side of the street, and bled out behind the mailbox.

[memebag]

You obviously haven't heard the tape for yourself yet, quit taking a journalists transcription of the tape for your truth, listen to it for yourself for a change.

I just listened to it. The transcript is accurate, except that they left out where Horn says "I'm gonna kill 'em", after he sees them leave his neighbors house, before he leaves his own house, while the 911 operator is saying "Stay in the house." That's premeditated murder, regardless of how much loot they stole.He never says they are coming toward his house. The operator asks him if he can see which way they are going and he says he can't, but he's going to go outside and see.So where are you getting your information?

That's right, if Joe would have taken your passive action, they would have most likely tried to smash one of his windows in, are you gonna argue that they weren't in his frontyard ?

If they were in his front yard before he left his house, why couldn't he see which way they were going? Why didn't he tell the 911 operator they were in his front yard?

So, we should all just cower in our homes whilest bad guys get to run the streets and do as they please until HOPEFULLY they will just go away, especially if you ignore them ?

No? Who said that?

Joe is the witness...

Joe Horn isn't a witness to the shooting, he's the shooter. You're really stretching for this, aren't you?

I have heard from 2 sources that the dead punks were shot in the chest. If you have some different info as to where they were shot please share.

What sources?

Exactly, you have NO IDEA and neither did Joe, he could only go by what he had already witnessed from the 2 dead losers.

And neither do you. We can go by what Joe Horn said on the tape (he didn't know where they were heading) or we can just make crap up.

It all starts from what the P.O.S. criminals did first, NOT what Joe did last. You want to be a criminal, there are certain risks involved. One of those risks is a man who thinks he has the right to help protect his neighborhood from thieves, and may kill you with a shotgun.

But we don't want to rely on vigilante's judgement. If Joe Horn thought you were robbing someone, would you rather he wait for the cops or kill you? Do you see the danger of placing our trust in people like Joe Horn?

Methinks memebag would argue with the wind.

It takes 2 to argue.

Actually one was shot point blank in the chest, the other turn to run as he shot and was struck in the side, he managed to make it 75 feet to the mailbox on the side of the street, and bled out behind the mailbox.

Where did you read that? I can't find any new info on the net.

[TJones]

Meme, meme,meme, isn't it your stance that Joe should have just stayed in his house, locked behind his door, and waited until the burglars went away, and let the police try to find them later ?

As far as why Joe couldn't see the criminals at that point, perhaps Joe was in a part of his house where his view was obstructed from seeing the two men approaching his house, just because Joe couldn't see them, it doesn't change the fact that the criminals were still walking in his frontyard, now does it ? You still want to argue that they WEREN'T in his front yard ?

Regardless, I'll let the courts decide who is right and who is wrong. My opinion won't sway a prosecutor.

As far where are we getting are information. Why don't you try looking around a little harder, instead of relying on some out of town sources for your news. Here's a little help for you.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nb/pas...ws/5303222.html

[memebag]

Meme, meme,meme, isn't it your stance that Joe should have just stayed in his house, locked behind his door, and waited until the burglars went away, and let the police try to find them later ?

My "stance" is that Joe Horn shouldn't have said he was going to kill them, then gone outside and killed them.

As far as why Joe couldn't see the criminals at that point, perhaps Joe was in a part of his house where his view was obstructed from seeing the two men approaching his house, just because Joe couldn't see them, it doesn't change the fact that the criminals were still walking in his frontyard, now does it ? You still want to argue that they WEREN'T in his front yard ?

Sure, I'll argue that. I've seen no evidence they were in his front yard when he left his house. Where have you seen any evidence for that?

As far where are we getting are information. Why don't you try looking around a little harder, instead of relying on some out of town sources for your news. Here's a little help for you.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nb/pas...ws/5303222.html

That's where I'm getting my information. There's nothing on the Chronicle site that I can find that says they were headed to Joe's front yard or into his house. So, where are you getting that information?

[cottonmather0]

My "stance" is that Joe Horn shouldn't have said he was going to kill them, then gone outside and killed them.

Meme, I have disagreed with a lot of what you have had to say in this debate, but you are dead on right with this statement. This WHOLE mess wouldn't even be a story, or even discussed here, had he not been so verbally excited on the telephone with the dispatcher and used the word, "kill." Once he did that, a whole 'nother can of worms was opened irrespective of the guys "getting away" with the robbery next door.

[Jax]

I thought it was interesting that the he first said something along the lines of "they are getting away" (not coming at him), then he went outside, shot them, came back, and said they were in HIS yard. It sounds like he changed his story after the shooting.

It should be pretty clear for the investigators whether the bodies were on his lawn or not, and I think that will be one of the deciding factors in this case.

EDIT: The exact quote was "... he's down, he almost run down the street.", and then "I had no choice. They came in the front yard with me, man, I had no choice!". So was the guy in his yard or was he down the street?

[TheNiche]

Meme, I have disagreed with a lot of what you have had to say in this debate, but you are dead on right with this statement. This WHOLE mess wouldn't even be a story, or even discussed here, had he not been so verbally excited on the telephone with the dispatcher and used the word, "kill." Once he did that, a whole 'nother can of worms was opened irrespective of the guys "getting away" with the robbery next door.

Let this serve as an example for all of us. If you're about to kill someone, don't say anything about killing or death. Don't say what it actually is because truth isn't pretty enough. Use PC buzzwords like 'attempt', 'non-lethal force', 'incapacitate', and 'oops' in that order so as to cause someone sentimental and easily swayed by subtle imagery to believe without any actual first-hand knowledge of the events leading to the 'altercation' that you kept a level head and had every intention of not killing a known scumbag that society would've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars sending through the justice system and then incarcerating for several years. But whatever you do, make the scumbag dies. Otherwise he'll just have to be rehabilitated, likely at public expense.

The important thing is to give the pussified masses a nice clean story or they'll gossip about you on an internet forum, attempting to perform deep analysis of the semantics of everything you'd said while under duress.

[memebag]

Let this serve as an example for all of us. If you're about to kill someone, don't say anything about killing or death.

Alternatively, try to avoid killing anyone who isn't physically threatening you.

[RedScare]

Actually, Niche, the reason to keep your fat mouth shut has nothing to do with wussified masses and internet forums, and EVERYTHING to do with criminal law. The vigilante's statements that he is going to leave his home...where he was in no danger...and kill the burglars can be used to infer his intent. Since many of the potential defenses involve "defending oneself or property, and the question of whether the vigilante was repelling an attack, statements of aggression, such as, "I'm going to kill them" put those defenses in jeopardy.

The critical questions in this case is where the burglars were shot, and whether they can be shown to be aggressors or fleeing. Despite claims by many on this thread that they "know" what happened, these facts have not been disclosed. My belief is that if the vigilante was lucky enough to have shot the burglars on his own property, the DA will let him skate. If he shot them while they were fleeing...in other words, if he was not in danger...he will be indicted. The law on this has not changed. I do not believe the vigilante had any right to kill the burglars if he was not in fear for his life. His statements make it pretty clear he was not.

NOTE: The terms I used have the meaning that Texas law gives them. I do not wish to debate whether posters agree with the law or the definitions.

[TJones]

My "stance" is that Joe Horn shouldn't have said he was going to kill them, then gone outside and killed them.

So, if Joe hadn't called ahead of time, and said those dreadful things, you would have been ok with him going outside with his shotgun to find the burglars now on his property. Ok, cool, gotcha. I agree with you, Joe should NOT have called ahead of time.

BTW, if you had actually already read the link I posted, like you claim to have, BEFORE I had posted it for you, you would have already known the perps were shot in the chest and not in the back. In the future, please get your stories straight, thanks buddy.

Oh Yeah, meme, you also said I had no evidence that the dead losers were in Joe's front yard. Well, if you read the full transcripts again, and I will quote Jax's quote, "...he's down, he almost run down the street.", and then "I had no choice. They came in the front yard with me, man, I had no choice!". This seems to tell me that the criminals were in his frontyard, what does it say to you ?

[TheNiche]

Actually, Niche, the reason to keep your fat mouth shut has nothing to do with wussified masses and internet forums, and EVERYTHING to do with criminal law. The vigilante's statements that he is going to leave his home...where he was in no danger...and kill the burglars can be used to infer his intent. Since many of the potential defenses involve "defending oneself or property, and the question of whether the vigilante was repelling an attack, statements of aggression, such as, "I'm going to kill them" put those defenses in jeopardy.

Not sure if you picked up on this, but I wasn't talking law, only PR, and then I was mocking its importance or validity in the grand scheme. It was a joke...mostly.

Its interesting though, that perhaps if he'd told the 911 dispatcher that he was armed and was going to perform a citizens' arrest, then shot the burglars and said that something they did spooked him and made him feel threatened, he'd probably be in decent shape, legally.

[dbigtex56]

Anyone here see that "South Park" episode where the hunters justify killing game by first yelling "Look out! He's coming right at us!"?

That's Mr. Horn. He didn't feel 'threatened' until it occurred to him that he had just murdered two men. Prior to that, he was out for blood.

A few years ago, while crossing a street, I happened to glance over at a car stopped at the intersection. Inside, a very agitated looking woman was glaring over the barrel of a pistol, which was pointed straight at me. Why? Who knows? But if her trigger finger had twitched, I might not be here today. And she would be free to make up any tale that occcured to her, and this being Texas, would probably get away with it.

I cannot understand the bloodthirst that pervades this 'culture'. It certainly hasn't made Texas a safer state.

[TJones]

I cannot understand the bloodthirst that pervades this 'culture'. It certainly hasn't made Texas a safer state.

You won't understand until your wife has been the victim of a carjacking with a gun shoved in their face and she calls you in hysterics and begging for you to get there and you are on the other side of town, or until a loved one is mugged at gunpoint and dies 3 days later from a heartattack because of the stress put on an 82 year old heart. If you have been unfortunate enough to be a victim of these things, and you still have compassion for criminals, then there is something MENTALLY wrong with you Bigtex. I understand they are humanbeings, but sometimes you have to have a thinning of the herd.

There was no "bloodthirst", it was a matter of him trying to be part of the solution, that became a problem.

[RedScare]

I've been mugged...twice. Had the gun jammed in my ribs while he demanded my wallet.

I guess there is something mentally wrong with me, since I still do not believe in killing someone over the 3 bucks he took from me.

[dbigtex56]

You won't understand until your wife has been the victim of a carjacking with a gun shoved in their face and she calls you in hysterics and begging for you to get there and you are on the other side of town, or until a loved one is mugged at gunpoint and dies 3 days later from a heartattack because of the stress put on an 82 year old heart. If you have been unfortunate enough to be a victim of these things, and you still have compassion for criminals, then there is something MENTALLY wrong with you Bigtex. I understand they are humanbeings, but sometimes you have to have a thinning of the herd.

There was no "bloodthirst", it was a matter of him trying to be part of the solution, that became a problem.

Mr. Horn isn't your wife, and he wasn't carjacked, and he wasn't mugged. He's some ass trying to be a hero, as if that would make up for the terrible things that happened in those examples you gave.

[memebag]

So, if Joe hadn't called ahead of time, and said those dreadful things, you would have been ok with him going outside with his shotgun to find the burglars now on his property.

No.

BTW, if you had actually already read the link I posted, like you claim to have, BEFORE I had posted it for you, you would have already known the perps were shot in the chest and not in the back. In the future, please get your stories straight, thanks buddy.

I never said they were shot in the chest or back. What are you talking about, buddy?

Oh Yeah, meme, you also said I had no evidence that the dead losers were in Joe's front yard. Well, if you read the full transcripts again, and I will quote Jax's quote, "...he's down, he almost run down the street.", and then "I had no choice. They came in the front yard with me, man, I had no choice!". This seems to tell me that the criminals were in his frontyard, what does it say to you ?

It sounds like one of them was in his front yard after Joe killed him. I haven't seen any indication that either one of them were in Joe's front yard when he left his house. Where are you getting information to support this claim? Why would you share that source with us?

[Mark F. Barnes]

(Mark F. Barnes @ Monday, November 19th, 2007 @ 8:23pm)

Actually one was shot point blank in the chest, the other turn to run as he shot and was struck in the side, he managed to make it 75 feet to the mailbox on the side of the street, and bled out behind the mailbox.

Where did you read that? I can't find any new info on the net.

I didn't read that anywhere, I got it first hand from someone in law enforcement that was privey to the scene. I was curious as to where they were when they got shot so I asked him. I was also told that the first suspect was laying on the edge of the curb directly across from Horn's driveway where he lay dead from a chest wound that with the pattern of the wound was less than 20 ft from the muzzle. The other had a wound in his left hip area, that was more spread out and ran from the side of his upper thigh area to his lower rib cage. There was no wound to his left arm, so investigators assume he was in the motion of turning to flee. There was a brick mailbox in front of the second house over from the scene, where the second suspect calasped and died from massive bleeding. Kevin said it appeared a shot may have gotten the femoral artery, because most of the bleeding was down low.

[TJones]

I never said they were shot in the chest or back. What are you talking about, buddy?

You said you read that article already, before that you asked me, what source am I using to know what part of the body your two buddies were shot, c'mon chief, quit crawfishin', the jig is up for you.

It sounds like one of them was in his front yard after Joe killed him. I haven't seen any indication that either one of them were in Joe's front yard when he left his house. Where are you getting information to support this claim? Why would you share that source with us?

Sounds more like you won't admit when you are wrong. That figures, you have been 1000% wrong on this whole deal, at least you are consistent.

I already shared that source. it comes from those "transcripts" you hold so dear. Now, you wanna say Jax is making "crap" up.

[memebag]

You said you read that article already, before that you asked me, what source am I using to know what part of the body your two buddies were shot, c'mon chief, quit crawfishin', the jig is up for you.

But I never argued about what part of the body my two buddies were shot in. You said:

I have heard from 2 sources that the dead punks were shot in the chest.

But the Chronicle link you posted says:

One shot struck one of the suspected burglars in the chest, and the other was struck on the side.

So where did you get the information that they were shot in the chest?

Sounds more like you won't admit when you are wrong. That figures, you have been 1000% wrong on this whole deal, at least you are consistent.

I'll admit when I'm wrong, but you haven't shown me where I'm wrong. I haven't shown where you're wrong, but I have asked you for your sources. So far you haven't told us where you get the information that they were in Joe Horn's front yard when he left his house, or where you get the information that they were both shot in the chest. I haven't claimed that these statements are wrong, just that I can't find a source for them. You obviously can, so please share with the rest of us.

I already shared that source. it comes from those "transcripts" you hold so dear. Now, you wanna say Jax is making "crap" up.

Why would I say that? I haven't seen Jax say the two dead men were planning to harm Joe Horn or rob his house.

[TJones]

Ok meme, for the SECOND time. At least try reading the article this time please.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nb/pas...ws/5303222.html

.....and we had Jax quote from the transcript of Joe Horn saying that "they came in my frontyard with me.....I had no choice." So, is Jax making that up ? I also never said what the criminals intentions were towards Joe, I merely speculated on what appeared to be the obvious.

[memebag]

Also, TJones, why the aggressive tone? Are you hoping to intimidate me? Are you threatened by someone disagreeing with you?

Ok meme, for the SECOND time. At least try reading the article this time please.http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nb/pas...ws/5303222.html

There must be something wrong with my eyes. I can't find the information you can. Please help.

Where does that article say they were shot in the chest?

Where does that article say they were in Joe Horn's front yard when he left his house?

Where does that article say Joe Horn's life was threatened before he killed them?

[Jax]

.....and we had Jax quote from the transcript of Joe Horn saying that "they came in my frontyard with me.....I had no choice." So, is Jax making that up ? I also never said what the criminals intentions were towards Joe, I merely speculated on what appeared to be the obvious.

I haven't seen anybody say I was making anything up. And you missed the other part of my quote. The quote was "he's down, he almost run down the street.", and immediately after "I had no choice. They came in the front yard with me, man, I had no choice"

The question is, which of these statements are true (or are they both true)? If we knew the time difference between the first sentence and the shot (you can actually hear the shot on the 911 recording), and the distance from his yard to the street, we could figure out whether there is chance that criminals turned around and ran back into his yard before being shot. Due to the short time between the first statement and the shot, it sounds like the second statement may have been made up, but I think you'd need to have the full unedited transcript and the distance to prove this. Only the investigators have all of the data to put this together.

I think we can all agree that if Joe were truly in danger, he would have had the right to defend himself, and if he wasn't in danger, he would have broken the law. Since we don't have the facts to prove it one way or the other, what's the point in bickering about it?

[memebag]

.....and we had Jax quote from the transcript of Joe Horn saying that "they came in my frontyard with me.....I had no choice." So, is Jax making that up ?

No, I quoted that from that transcript, too. I also pointed out that Joe Horn isn't a shooting witness, but the shooter.

I also never said what the criminals intentions were towards Joe, I merely speculated on what appeared to be the obvious.

Sorry, I didn't see where you said it was speculation. What I saw you write was:

the fact remains that 2 SEASONED criminals weren't breaking windows to get Auntie's keys, they were robbing Joe Horn's neighbor's house, and after that, they were walking on Joe Horn's frontyard, with a crowbar in their hand and coming towards Joe.

and:

Joe couldn't see them, but knew they were on the move, so he went outside to see where to. SURPRISE, the thieves are now in Joe's frontyard, brandishing a crowbar, and holding the evidence of their crime in the other and they are now only 15 feet away from him, in Joe's frontyard and Joe tells them in no uncertain terms, "Move, and you're dead !"

and:

... just because Joe couldn't see them, it doesn't change the fact that the criminals were still walking in his frontyard, now does it ?

Is that all speculation, or are you presenting it as fact?

[MidtownCoog]

This diatribe reminds me of when I was an InterWeb rookie.

[TJones]

Is that all speculation, or are you presenting it as fact?

Ok, first of all this is the speculation of which we were talking about, funny how you didn't quote that one.

"That's right, if Joe would have taken your passive action, they would have most likely tried to smash one of his windows in, are you gonna argue that they weren't in his frontyard ?" You wanna try for the misquote trifecta meme ?

What "tone", I asked you nicely, "please".

Ok, I'll type slow for you this time meme, so you can keep up.

Fact is 2 dead guys, both in Joe Horn's yard BEFORE being dropped like a bad habit. One managed to run a little ways, (which is why Joe Horn was saying "one tried to run down the street.") It is my belief that the second perp was shot and then Joe witnessed him trying to run down the street until he bled out over by the brick mailbox of Joe's neighbor(yes, more speculation, but I'll stand by it.) while the other lay with an open chest cavity in Joe's frontyard. If the criminal didn't get dropped right then and there, then how did he get in Joe's yard ? I can't wait to hear your absurdity towards that question meme.

Where's your proof to contradict ANY of this, my friend meme.....hugs XOXO !

[memebag]

Ok, first of all this is the speculation of which we were talking about, funny how you didn't quote that one.

"That's right, if Joe would have taken your passive action, they would have most likely tried to smash one of his windows in, are you gonna argue that they weren't in his frontyard ?" You wanna try for the misquote trifecta meme ?

Sorry, I don't follow.

What "tone", I asked you nicely, "please".

Ok, I'll type slow for you this time meme, so you can keep up.

That tone.

Fact is 2 dead guys, both in Joe Horn's yard BEFORE being dropped like a bad habit.

Until you give us your source that they were in Joe Horn's yard before he shot them, that is speculation.

One managed to run a little ways, (which is why Joe Horn was saying "one tried to run down the street.") It is my belief that the second perp was shot and then Joe witnessed him trying to run down the street until he bled out over by the brick mailbox of Joe's neighbor(yes, more speculation, but I'll stand by it.) while the other lay with an open chest cavity in Joe's frontyard. If the criminal didn't get dropped right then and there, then how did he get in Joe's yard ? I can't wait to hear your absurdity towards that question meme.

Why speculate? Here's what Mark F. Barnes says a cop told him:

I was also told that the first suspect was laying on the edge of the curb directly across from Horn's driveway where he lay dead from a chest wound that with the pattern of the wound was less than 20 ft from the muzzle. The other had a wound in his left hip area, that was more spread out and ran from the side of his upper thigh area to his lower rib cage. There was no wound to his left arm, so investigators assume he was in the motion of turning to flee. There was a brick mailbox in front of the second house over from the scene, where the second suspect calasped and died from massive bleeding.

I don't see either of them being in Joe Horn's yard from that description.

Where's your proof to contradict ANY of this, my friend meme.....hugs XOXO !

Contradict your speculation? Why bother?

[Mark F. Barnes]

You have to excuse TJ, he has a Napoleonic complex. He acts that way as a natural defense so people won't slap him around and take his lunch money.

[memebag]

You have to excuse TJ, he has a Napoleonic complex. He acts that way as a natural defense so people won't slap him around and take his lunch money.

Oh, I didn't realize. Thanks for the info. Sorry, TJ.

[RedScare]

Oh, I didn't realize. Thanks for the info. Sorry, TJ.

You probably do not know this, but TJ looks like that guy in Mark Barnes' avatar.

BTW, what you are missing is that TJ is taking the vigilante's statements as facts. It is rather rare in the criminal law business to take the suspect's statements as fact, without evidence to support it. So, while you are ignoring the shooter's statements, TJ is relying on them as "facts". You two will never reach agreement until you deal with this issue.