Pasadena Homeowner Kills Men Burglarizing Neighbor's House

[Jeebus]

"Seasoned criminals"? All I can find is they each had one arrest for drug offenses.

I read yesterday that one was on parole, and both had multple convictions for misdemeanors. I can't find it this morning, but I'll continue to look.

The transcript I read says he shouted "Boom! You're dead!", then he fired.

He said: "Move, you're dead.."

No, I believe neither of them were found guilty of breaking into any houses or robbing them, including this one. Innocent until proven guilty, right? And they'll never get to defend themselves.

Do you think you'd feel the same way if Joe Horn was your neighbor, and it was your house that was burglarized?

[memebag]

I read yesterday that one was on parole, and both had multple convictions for misdemeanors. I can't find it this morning, but I'll continue to look.

Where did you read that?

Do you think you'd feel the same way if Joe Horn was your neighbor, and it was your house that was burglarized?

Absolutely. There's nothing in my house so valuable that someone should die over it. I'd rather come home and find everything gone than two corpses. Stuff is just stuff.

Are you so attached to your things that you'd want a neighbor to kill to protect them?

[Poppahop]

Does anybody else find it odd that the two guys were South American and that they seemed to know that there was a huge pile of cash in that house?

Who keeps huge amounts of cash in their house?

[memebag]

Does anybody else find it odd that the two guys were South American and that they seemed to know that there was a huge pile of cash in that house?

Where is that being reported?

[Poppahop]

Where is that being reported?

The Chron: "The white bag one of the dead men had been carrying contained a large amount of cash, apparently taken from the house, Corbett said."

[KimberlySayWhat]

I wish I felt worse than I do. Too bad that those guys had to go down that path.

[memebag]

The Chron: "The white bag one of the dead men had been carrying contained a large amount of cash, apparently taken from the house, Corbett said."

That article also says:

One had identification indicating he was from Puerto Rico, the other had documentation indicating he may have been from Puerto Rico, Colombia or the Dominican Republic, Corbett said.

Columbia is in South America, but Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic are not.

[ricco67]

watching the news tonight (local fox news i think), the lead story was of the mom and tiny, cute baby of one of the robber "victims". the newscaster said the baby will never get a picture with his daddy again. i'm sorry, but i laughed my ass off. the kiddo might have a fighting chance without a criminal for a dad. local news is becoming more entertainment than informative. regardless whether or not the shooter had legal rights, he may have done a favor for that cute tiny tot. i think a slap on the wrist is in order for the shooter and community outpouring for the poor tyke.

in all reality, death was too severe for these dumb idiots. the neighbor should have shot at the knees.

one could extrapolate the "good intentions" of terrorists who want to serve allah. simply because you think you're doing good is not reason to take someone else's life. defending your own or the life of another is one thing, but stuff? no one deserves to die for taking stuff.

i think the neighbor was too "yahoo", but i don't think he deserves a prison sentence.

Totally agree with you on this entire post. The broadcast I think is a total joke and made the mother and child as a victim, and in a way they were, but not of what they reported. They were a victim of a loser husband and his sidekick and would have continued to be so until they died. Now she can shack up with some other loser she finds.

My only misgivings that I heard from the transcript that I have read is that he went out with intention to shoot and stated it clearly.

If he had not placed the call at all, he would have gone off scott free and I would have bought him a beer for it.

As it stands now, I'd still buy him a beer, but I'd help contribute to his lawyer's fees. Can this be a HAIF project, BTW?

Mark:

As far as that new "occupation" sentence that was mentioned, it COULD be possible it's in a new draft that was put before the house a few months ago, but I'm not certain.

Do I feel sorry for the two burglers? No. Hell, I would have shot them myself in the same situation. I just wouldn't have called the cops.

Do I feel sorry for the Mom and kid? Not as much as you would think. If anything, the mother and child now have a chance to meet up with someone decent. Let's see if she knows to tell the difference.

Do I feel sorry for the shooter? Of course.

Will he get sued? I think he will be, and I WILL help contribute for his defense on that.

Did the media take the wrong side? From what I've seen of ONE report I saw (KRIV, I think), they reported it wrongly.

Is Redscare being unusually silent on this matter? Oh yeah. Probably waiting for us armchair lawyers to finish while he's laughing his ass off at us, spilling his vodka, and wondering what the hell is happening to our society.

Do I have a lousy posting style? Hell ya.

[cottonmather0]

My only misgivings that I heard from the transcript that I have read is that he went out with intention to shoot and stated it clearly.

If he had not placed the call at all, he would have gone off scott free and I would have bought him a beer for it.

As it stands now, I'd still buy him a beer, but I'd help contribute to his lawyer's fees. Can this be a HAIF project, BTW?

Do I feel sorry for the two burglers? No. Hell, I would have shot them myself in the same situation. I just wouldn't have called the cops.

Do I feel sorry for the Mom and kid? Not as much as you would think. If anything, the mother and child now have a chance to meet up with someone decent. Let's see if she knows to tell the difference.

Do I feel sorry for the shooter? Of course.

Will he get sued? I think he will be, and I WILL help contribute for his defense on that.

That was part of my struggle mentioned in the OP. He told the dispatcher, "I'm going to kill them," which, without some good lawyering, is pretty damning when it comes to a self-defense argument or any argument that argues imminent danger against his person or his property. He should have just gone outside and confronted them without calling the cops and then he and his lawyer would have come up with a perfectly good story.

That said, at least he called the cops, and I think his frustration is palpable and understandable when he figures out that calling the cops wasn't going to stop them from, "getting away with it." In this sense, isn't he forced to take the law into his own hands if the cops fail in their duty to protect the neighborhood?

I don't feel sorry for the mom and daughter specifically because the father is dead. I feel sorry for them only in a clinical way that they were reliant on some guy who was obviously a dishonest scumbag and in that sense were victims of his own scumbaggedness and never had a chance, whether he gets killed by Joe Horn, gets killed by some other criminal associate, or ends up in prison.

Again, we can't all just go around shooting people we think are up to no good in our neighborhood, but this case certainly highlights the sorry state of policing these days that people can just get away with brazenly breaking into someone's house in broad daylight with no fear of consequences.

And finally, I wouldn't think it's that fishy to find a large bag of cash in the house, there could be lots of legitimate business reasons for someone to have a bunch of cash on hand, and if you've got nothing to hide and have an expectation that no one's going to come into your house and take your cash (which is reasonable), you would just leave it out to be found easily. We need more details on this part before we start making assumptions, I think. It doesn't sound like the cash was all they took (meaning they came just for the cash only), so I think it seems to be more of a normal burglary, with the added bonus for them of finding a large bag of cash.

[ricco67]

Again, we can't all just go around shooting people we think are up to no good in our neighborhood, but this case certainly highlights the sorry state of policing these days that people can just get away with brazenly breaking into someone's house in broad daylight with no fear of consequences.

We could and it would certainly make the criminals a bit jittery, but there is a law against that.

I was at a bar near downtown a few months back and he was fed up with some of the crime in midtown and crime overall in Houston. He casually wondered if perhaps going around and shooting "known" criminals such as drug dealers and those that "act" like thugs wouldn't help throw a little clorox in the gene pool.

While I thought this was all fine and dandy as a theoritical debate, I seriously wondered if this guy was serious as he walked away. I thought about that conversation quite a bit and wondered if this is the kind of guy that might actually do it.

[Jeebus]

That said, at least he called the cops, and I think his frustration is palpable and understandable when he figures out that calling the cops wasn't going to stop them from, "getting away with it." In this sense, isn't he forced to take the law into his own hands if the cops fail in their duty to protect the neighborhood?

Again, we can't all just go around shooting people we think are up to no good in our neighborhood, but this case certainly highlights the sorry state of policing these days that people can just get away with brazenly breaking into someone's house in broad daylight with no fear of consequences.

You make an excellent point about upholding the law in the absense of the police. I wonder if there is something on the books, or maybe in the city charter with the police department about their duties, and what can be done in their absence or deliquence.

I want to know where the police were. Pasedena is not that big. Were they all at a late lunch?

scumbaggedness

scumbaggery maybe?

And where the hell is Redscare on this one??

[Mark F. Barnes]

See that's what's wrong with society nowadays, and the majority of it comes from Generation X. I guess us old Baby Boomers are fighting a losing battle to try and maintain some sense of right and wrong in this world.

Everyone these days are more worried about the civil rights of the criminals, than the civil rights of the honest hardworking taxpayers. Growing up in the 50's in Texas as a kid, you respected the law, you respected Law Enforcement. Growing up in the household of a peace officer maybe I am just a little bias, but I really don't think objectivity is necessary to understand right and wrong.

Growing up in Texas kids feared being sent off to "Gatesville" or "TYC". It was a bad place, and no one wanted any part of it. I heard horror stories from a kid I knew that spent several vacations there, Bobby was a pet project of my father, to try and straighten a screwed up kid out, who's parents neither gave a damn or had the means to do so. Bobby is now a senior loan officer at Wells Fargo and a great father and grandfather. Nowadays the Juvenile Detention System is nothing more than a proving ground for career criminals to learn the ropes of being a career criminal.

Prison use to be a bad place that no one wanted to go to. Was it cruel and a terrible place to be, hell yes it was, it's "PRISON" not Palm Springs. These days prison is nothing near what it use to be. In 1980 before Federal Judge William Wayne Justice ruled that Texas Prisons were "cruel and inhumane" and levied a new set of guidelines that the system had to abide by, to protect the civil rights of convicted felons, the prison population was 10,636 (recidivism rate = 30%). Today there are 135,655 (recidivism rate = 59%) and counting. TDC was a self sufficient, self funding system in 1980. Didn't cost the taxpayer a dime to incarcerate it's menaces to society. Today it costs $2,174,007,030.00 a year to house it's inmates. Prison's are now air-conditioned, they all have Tvs for their cells, (if you don't believe me, take a drive up to Huntsville and drive in front of the Walls Unit at night, and every cell is lit up with a TV, you can see it from the street as you drive by.) Prison is just a spot for them to rest up, pump some weights, and gain their weight back from their dope binges they've been on while on the streets. So they can be all healthy and get out and make another run at it. They are not force to work anymore, hard labor or otherwise, wouldn't want to violate their civil right not to have to hold a job, or having to get off their asses and do anything.

Of course John Q Citizen is still out there getting up at the crack of dawn, to go off to work, and make money to replace the crap that that sorry SOB stole, and traded for dope, or money for dope. And John Q's homeowners insurance didn't cover burglary, or maybe the cash stash he was putting back for the last 4 years to buy that boat he'd wanted his entire life. Where are John Q's civil rights, that protect him from being ripped off? Where is that bleeding hearted individual that gave the felons more protection than the victims, when John Q needed some help making ends meet last month?

And after all this worthless ranting, Joe Horn still faces whatever fate lies ahead. Ricco, if there is a defense fund for Joe Horn put together, you can sure count me in on that. Hopefully it never gets to that point. It's just a shame that he's being tried in the media, who can't even report accurately enough to get his age right the first time. He was reported as being in his 70's by several sources, when he is in fact only 61, even the account of the 911 conversation has been distorted by different sources, and some idiots seen to look at it as it was an actual "transcript", when it is the farthest thing from it. Just because some reporter or journalist writes down what he or she thinks is being said doesn't make it a transcript.

And for the record, there are a lot of things in my house you will get shot over. things that cannot be replaced, things that an insurance company cannot replace. Things that have been in my family for 200 years or more. I do what I can to protect them, ADT, Gun safes, etc. But believe you me, my closest neighbor is a Montgomery County Deputy Sheriff, and you get caught stealing down this road and you will be shot. And since all of this has come about, we are having notarized statements drawn up, giving each other permission to defend ours and each others domains by whatever means necessary.

Any of my generation out there remember brazen criminal activity like this going on 40 years ago? I can't recall it. Just like a little while back they had a rash of thugs just kicking in front doors and robbing people in broad daylight out in the Sugarland/Katy area. Things are just out of control. I suppose these to outstanding citizens that Joe Horn shot were here on work visas? No one mentioned whether or not what their documentation was, legal or not. They were to bust trying to crucify Joe Horn in the media.

[Mark F. Barnes]

Bulletin - Eas Activation Requested Child Abduction Emergency Houston Police Department Relayed By National Weather Service Houston/Galveston TX 1230 PM CST Sun Nov 18 2007

... Amber Alert...

The Following Message Is Transmitted At The Request Of The Houston Police Department.

The Houston Police Department Is Searching For Pierce Ram. Pierce Is A Four Year Old Child Taken By An Unknown Suspect While He Was In A Tan Chevrolet Tahoe... Texas License Plate 43l-ZP2. The Incident Occurred At Approximately 1105 AM CST On Sunday November 18th.

If You Have Any Information Regarding This Abduction... Contact The Houston Police Department At 713-306-3600.

[RedScare]

I have no interest in participating in this vigilante lovefest. Justifiable homicide or not, reading posts that say they are "happy" to read that people are killed, or that they would buy the shooter a beer, make my stomach turn. I have little sympathy for burglars. I have less for vigilantes.

You probably would not like my opinion on the value Americans place on property over human life, anyway.

Note to Mark Barnes: Last time I checked, Puerto Rico is part of the US. Generally, US citizens of hispanic ancestry do not need "work visas", or "documentation, legal or not".

[memebag]

I have no interest in participating in this vigilante lovefest.

But I'm glad you did. Reading someone else's objections to this makes me a little less scared of my neighbors.

[Mark F. Barnes]

I have no interest in participating in this vigilante lovefest. Justifiable homicide or not, reading posts that say they are "happy" to read that people are killed, or that they would buy the shooter a beer, make my stomach turn. I have little sympathy for burglars. I have less for vigilantes.

You probably would not like my opinion on the value Americans place on property over human life, anyway.

Note to Mark Barnes: Last time I checked, Puerto Rico is part of the US. Generally, US citizens of hispanic ancestry do not need "work visas", or "documentation, legal or not".

Thanks Red, I stand to be corrected. I guess I was concentrating more on the other fella from the Dominican Republic or Columbia or where ever, they weren't real clear on that either, typical media frenzy.

[Mark F. Barnes]

I would like to hear your legal opinion though Red, on the verbiage I high lighted in the Penal code, and it's application to this situation or not. Everyone has their right to their moral opinions, and to whether you agree or disagree with this particular incident. I just hope it never happens to you and you have to have your opinion changed the hard way.

[TJones]

But I'm glad you did. Reading someone else's objections to this makes me a little less scared of my neighbors.

Why are you scared? Do you plan on following your 2 scumbag buddies lead and go break into your neighbor's houses with a crowbar to gain entry and steal their stuff ?

[memebag]

Why are you scared? Do you plan on following your 2 scumbag buddies lead and go break into your neighbor's houses with a crowbar to gain entry and steal their stuff ?

My scumbag buddies? What the hell are you talking about?

I'm scared that you might get it in your head that I'm a danger to your property and kill me on the spot.

Being opposed to Joe Horn's vigilantism doesn't equate to sympathy for criminals.

[Mark F. Barnes]

Bulletin - Eas Activation Requested Child Abduction Emergency Houston Police Department Relayed By National Weather Service Houston/Galveston TX 1230 PM CST Sun Nov 18 2007

... Amber Alert...

The Following Message Is Transmitted At The Request Of The Houston Police Department.

The Houston Police Department Is Searching For Pierce Ram. Pierce Is A Four Year Old Child Taken By An Unknown Suspect While He Was In A Tan Chevrolet Tahoe... Texas License Plate 43l-ZP2. The Incident Occurred At Approximately 1105 AM CST On Sunday November 18th.

If You Have Any Information Regarding This Abduction... Contact The Houston Police Department At 713-306-3600.

Child was recovered, car theif let him out a few miles away.

[mumbles]

The building or vehicle must be occupied at the time for the

deadly force provision to apply, and the person using force cannot provoke the attacker or be involved in criminal activity at the time.

Do a search for the above quote and you will find it. Don't rem where I found it the first time but it is here:

http://www.txcn.com/sharedcontent/dws/txcn...ll.712a4f3.html

[Mark F. Barnes]

The building or vehicle must be occupied at the time for the

deadly force provision to apply, and the person using force cannot provoke the attacker or be involved in criminal activity at the time.

Do a search for the above quote and you will find it. Don't rem where I found it the first time but it is here:

http://www.txcn.com/sharedcontent/dws/txcn...ll.712a4f3.html

I prefer not to use the media as a legal resource, I instead pulled up a direct link to the Texas Penal Code as archived on the Official State of Texas Website. Not some media interpretation of the law.

http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/pe.toc.htm

I can't seem to find the part where it says the word "occupied" anywhere.

Once again it reads like this:

TEXAS PENAL CODE

TITLE 2. GENERAL PRINCIPLES OF CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY

CHAPTER 9. JUSTIFICATION EXCLUDING CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY

SECTION 9.43. PROTECTION OF THIRD PERSONS PROPERTY

[mumbles]

But this is old, can you find a copy of the new bill?

Somewhere I also read and also heard from that reliable news source on the radio that we can use deadly force for criminal mischief. Does that mean people will start shooting all those kids who are breaking car windows? They really need to pass this info out in the schools, neighborhoods, etc.

[mumbles]

I don't think it covers burglary, just robbery, fear of bodily harm.

In deadly force situations, the person must reasonably believe that the force is immediately necessary to protect his or her person from the exercise of unlawful deadly force by the aggressor or to prevent the imminent commission of an aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodocs/80R...ml/SB00378F.htm

I would say Joes best defense was fear of bodily harm after he went out with the gun. He did not have to stay in the house because a dispatcher told him to.

Had the police arrived in time would they have shot at the buglars running away? I would hope so. It has nothing to do with property, I don't care who takes my property. I don't ever want to go through the terror of someone breaking into my home when I am there.

[Mark F. Barnes]

But this is old, can you find a copy of the new bill?

Somewhere I also read and also heard from that reliable news source on the radio that we can use deadly force for criminal mischief. Does that mean people will start shooting all those kids who are breaking car windows? They really need to pass this info out in the schools, neighborhoods, etc.

The link I provided is the current Penal Code in place. When the Penal Code is changed I am sure the State updates accordingly.

I don't think it covers burglary, just robbery, fear of bodily harm.

In deadly force situations, the person must reasonably believe that the force is immediately necessary to protect his or her person from the exercise of unlawful deadly force by the aggressor or to prevent the imminent commission of an aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodocs/80R...ml/SB00378F.htm

I would say Joes best defense was fear of bodily harm after he went out with the gun. He did not have to stay in the house because a dispatcher told him to.

Had the police arrived in time would they have shot at the buglars running away? I would hope so. It has nothing to do with property, I don't care who takes my property. I don't ever want to go through the terror of someone breaking into my home when I am there.

This verbiage addresses my point exactly. Texas Penal Code does no give "any presumption" in defending ones domain, basically it leaves the option to shoot first and ask questions later. Morally right or wrong is not for me to say, nor is it the legal system, with all the screaming of separation or state and religion by the less conservative section, you are left with written law, stay all emotional ties to the side. It also supports the verbiage in the Texas Penal Code that I posted, it's in the juries hands if the DA decides to prosecute him, there is no direct verbiage one way or another, as to clean cut guilt or innocence. Interesting to say the least. I see quite a bit of room for legal maneuvering one way or the other.

In addition, the Texas Penal Code contains no presumption of reasonableness in defending a home, vehicle, place of business, or place of employment against unlawful intruders. Instead, Texas juries must decide after the fact whether a victim's actions to protect the victim and his or her family were reasonable or necessary under the circumstances.

This verbiage you posted also does a good thing, it directly addresses the fact that if Mr. Horn is found to be justified in his action by Chapter 9 of the TPC, he is also is immune from Civil Liability, which leaves him not having to worry about being sued over this in civil court, at least at the State level.

Sec. 83.001. New heading: CIVIL IMMUNITY. Provides that a person who uses force or deadly force justified under Chapter 9 (Justification Excluding Criminal Responsibility), Penal Code, is immune from civil liability for personal injury or death that results from the defendant's use of force or deadly force, as applicable. Deletes existing text relating to an affirmative defense to civil action arising from the use of justifiable deadly force.

[ssullivan]

I don't consider this guy a hero. I think he's an idiot. Calling 911 to report a robbery in progress was the right thing to do. But he had no right to walk out there with a gun and turn himself into a self-appointed agent of law enforcement. These guys were not threatening his property or life. I'm not saying that the guys who broke into the house weren't scumbags that deserve to be punished, because I think they were. But that's why we have a legal system, and it's not up to citizens to engage in vigilante justice. The police were on their way and arrived a few minutes later. This neighbor would have been far more useful to call 911, look outside to get a description of the suspects and any vehicles, and stay on the phone with the dispatcher until authorities arrive. He had no more right to go outside and take justice into his own hands with a shotgun than the thieves had to break into the neighbor's house. Why would any sane, thinking, intelligent person go outside in this situation?

Call me a bleeding-heart liberal if you want, but everyone deserves equal justice under the law, and that includes a trial by jury. Even the most conservative Americans shouldn't argue with that concept, as it's written into our very own Constitution's Bill of Rights. Tne Constitution says nothing about being shot by the next door neighbor who thinks he knows what's best. I'm not in favor of the state's death penalty, even in the worst criminal cases (I am a supporter of life in prison with no possibility of parole, and prison being true punishment), and I'm even less in favor of a death penalty being carried out by a crazy old man with a gun.

[ssullivan]

See that's what's wrong with society nowadays, and the majority of it comes from Generation X. I guess us old Baby Boomers are fighting a losing battle to try and maintain some sense of right and wrong in this world.

Hmmm... I'm a "Gen-Xer" and I know right from wrong. My friends are of the same generation and know right from wrong. So are many of my co-workers.

I think it's a bit short-sighted to place blame for all of society's ills on a generation that is mostly in its early 30s at this point, especially when much of the increase in violent crime rates happened when my generation was still in elementary school.

[Parrothead]

I read yesterday that one was on parole, and both had multple convictions for misdemeanors. I can't find it this morning, but I'll continue to look.

He said: "Move, you're dead.."

Do you think you'd feel the same way if Joe Horn was your neighbor, and it was your house that was burglarized?

No, he said, "BOOM, you're dead." That is what is being quoted this morning and what is on the tape.

[TJones]

My scumbag buddies? What the hell are you talking about?

I'm scared that you might get it in your head that I'm a danger to your property and kill me on the spot.

Being opposed to Joe Horn's vigilantism doesn't equate to sympathy for criminals.

If you are stealing my and your neighbor's stuff, and then come walking on my front lawn with a crowbar and a bag of loot, then you ARE a danger. You see how that works ?

[Parrothead]

I don't consider this guy a hero. I think he's an idiot. Calling 911 to report a robbery in progress was the right thing to do. But he had no right to walk out there with a gun and turn himself into a self-appointed agent of law enforcement. These guys were not threatening his property or life. I'm not saying that the guys who broke into the house weren't scumbags that deserve to be punished, because I think they were. But that's why we have a legal system, and it's not up to citizens to engage in vigilante justice. The police were on their way and arrived a few minutes later. This neighbor would have been far more useful to call 911, look outside to get a description of the suspects and any vehicles, and stay on the phone with the dispatcher until authorities arrive. He had no more right to go outside and take justice into his own hands with a shotgun than the thieves had to break into the neighbor's house. Why would any sane, thinking, intelligent person go outside in this situation?

Call me a bleeding-heart liberal if you want, but everyone deserves equal justice under the law, and that includes a trial by jury. Even the most conservative Americans shouldn't argue with that concept, as it's written into our very own Constitution's Bill of Rights. Tne Constitution says nothing about being shot by the next door neighbor who thinks he knows what's best. I'm not in favor of the state's death penalty, even in the worst criminal cases (I am a supporter of life in prison with no possibility of parole, and prison being true punishment), and I'm even less in favor of a death penalty being carried out by a crazy old man with a gun.

Hmmm... I'm a "Gen-Xer" and I know right from wrong. My friends are of the same generation and know right from wrong. So are many of my co-workers.

I think it's a bit short-sighted to place blame for all of society's ills on a generation that is mostly in its early 30s at this point, especially when much of the increase in violent crime rates happened when my generation was still in elementary school.

Couldn't agree more, and I am definitely not a bleeding heart liberal! I also don't get the Gen-X reference, being as I am also a Gen X'er. I for one have been impressed with how the Gen-Xers have turned out! I thought we were a lost cause for sure