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cottonmather0

Pasadena Homeowner Kills Men Burglarizing Neighbors' House

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Forgive me, I did a search and couldn't find anything on this topic and that surprises me so maybe I missed a discussion somewhere.

The City of Pasadena released the 911 tapes of the guy who observed two guys burglarizing his neighbors' house in broad daylight and went outside and shot and killed them when the cops didn't show up. There are more comments on the Chronicle story than just about any story I have ever seen.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5306638.html

Seems that the slight consensus is that the guy is more a hero than a murderer, but personally I'm torn. I do think he did the right thing and I think if someone is going to be so brazen and disregarding of their fellow citizens as to break into someone's house in broad daylight and rob them, they deserve whatever they get. It's just wrong and a general lack of consequences - in all areas, not just crime - is what I feel causes a lot of the problems we have in today's society.

That said, the guy was in his house next door and wasn't threatened at all (until he chose to go outiside and confront them), his property was not being taken, and he's recorded on the phone saying that he planned to go outside and "kill" them if the cops didn't show up, which is what happened. Techincally, that is a clear cut case of murder.

I don't know what to think. I'm inclined to say he should be convicted of a lesser charge and do some probation but probably shouldn't go to prison. He needs to be punished, but not treated like a common criminal, either.

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It's murder. Period.

Cases such as this is why there must be some latitude in sentencing guidelines. Did he have the right to murder those men? No. Does it bother me that he did? Not as much as it should...

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News played the tape that HPD recorded while speaking with this shooter. He has sealed his own coffin. Cops were already on site. He should have let them do their job. He is screwed, major.

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News played the tape that HPD recorded while speaking with this shooter. He has sealed his own coffin. Cops were already on site. He should have let them do their job. He is screwed, major.

The cops didn't show up for several minutes after the shooting. The perps were on their way out and leaving the scene when the man shot them. They would have been gone by the time the patrolmen arrived. They play that audio tape on the news over and over and there is a gap in time that's not accounted for after he shot twice, The telephone line went dead, but the man called police again and told a dispatcher what he had done. It sounds like he dropped his cell phone and he then came back in house and called 911 again on the house phone. I figure he broke his cell when it dropped, or the battery went flying like they tend to do. On the second call into 911 is when the dispatcher was telling him to put the gun down the plainclothes and patrolmen are on site, and not to go back outside. I am sure he will be no billed on the issue, no grounds to indict. He may be on safe legal ground if the neighbor whose home was burglarized tells police he asked the man to watch his property. According to the state penal code, a person can use force or deadly force to defend someone else's property if he reasonably believes he has a legal duty to do so or the property owner had requested his protection. So if the neighbor says he had a greater right of possession than the people trying to break in, that could put him (the shooter) in an ownership role, so to speak. He's in his 70's and will never see the inside of a court room. And honestly if they were to ever manage to get an indictment on him, you'll never find a jury that would convict him of murder, man-slaughter would have only a slight chance.

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I will just "ditto" Mark's comments. I heard the same thing yesterday, about an owner of said property asking a neighbor to protect his homestead while he is away at ANY given time, gives the person asked, basically the same rights as if it were his own property being stolen.

BigTex, It may not be "murder" under the law. I am hoping this case will set precedence for future would be robbers. The robbers had the loot in their possession, they were told "not to move or they are dead." The robbers moved, they are dead, I hope the 70 yr. old man gets protected from this.

Vertigo, go listen to the tape AGAIN, there were NO cops on site when the shootings occurred.

The Verdict, 2 less scumbags on the street ripping people off, and leaving them feeling violated, one over zealous oldman behind bars awaiting trial, who should be let out on his own recognisance until trial, if there ever is a trial.

I'll bet burglaries in the area go down 50% now.

Edited by TJones

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Yeah, I thought it was rather clear cut until I heard some of the details, most importantly, he said he "hardly knew" the people next door, which would lead me to conclude that they had likely not asked for his protection. That seems to throw that defense out the window.

The other thing that bothers me is that he had to walk outside and confront them. That right there is what a prosecutor will call, "premeditation." I think it's hard for him to say he felt threatened, especially when he admitted to the dispatcher what his plans were. If he had just gone outside to "talk" but not with stated plans to shoot them, he could probably get away with plausible self-defense argument, but that too goes out the window.

Like I said in the OP, he doesn't deserve to spend any time in prison, but he needs to be punished in some way.

UPDATE: My wife the lawyer just told me there's a cattle rustling law that applies? Only in Texas!

Edited by cottonmather0

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Guest danax
The Verdict, 2 less scumbags on the street ripping people off, and leaving them feeling violated, one over zealous oldman behind bars awaiting trial, who should be let out on his own recognisance until trial, if there ever is a trial.

I'll bet burglaries in the area go down 50% now.

I'm against the death penalty but find myself cheering this guy, and I bet most feel the same way (poll?). Guess I've got pent-up frustration hearing of so many brazen robberies without justice. I think taking them out at the knees might've been as effective, to those two anyway, but it wouldn't have gotten the widespread publicity this will.

The guy sounds like he's straight out of King of the Hill, just like a lot of people imagine Texans to be. He could end up being a national cult hero before long.

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Let me see if I've got this straight. Joe Horn didn't know his neighbors very well, but he saw two men who appeared to be robbing their house. He called the police, told the dispatcher he was going to shoot them, the dispatcher said not to, then he went outside and shot them.

What if these guys weren't robbing the house? What if there was some kind of emergency, and the neighbor sent these two men to his house to break in and get something? What if Joe Horn had been mistaken?

I love the whole gunslinging Texan mystique, but I don't want anyone shooting me if my girlfriend's mom locked her keys in the car and needs me to break into her apartment to get her spare set.

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What if these guys weren't robbing the house? What if there was some kind of emergency, and the neighbor sent these two men to his house to break in and get something? What if Joe Horn had been mistaken?

I love the whole gunslinging Texan mystique, but I don't want anyone shooting me if my girlfriend's mom locked her keys in the car and needs me to break into her apartment to get her spare set.

179 posts from you, and just about every single one defies logic. Most of us know a bad scene when you see one.

Lock your keys in an apartment, you call the management.

20 years ago we got a call in the middle of the night that people were breaking into my Dad's truck. My Dad went out there with a shot gun and forced them to crawl into the garage while he held a gun on them until the cops arrived.

Welcome to Texas, and watch your backside.

Edited by MidtownCoog

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Yeah, I thought it was rather clear cut until I heard some of the details, most importantly, he said he "hardly knew" the people next door, which would lead me to conclude that they had likely not asked for his protection. That seems to throw that defense out the window.

The other thing that bothers me is that he had to walk outside and confront them. That right there is what a prosecutor will call, "premeditation." I think it's hard for him to say he felt threatened, especially when he admitted to the dispatcher what his plans were. If he had just gone outside to "talk" but not with stated plans to shoot them, he could probably get away with plausible self-defense argument, but that too goes out the window.

Like I said in the OP, he doesn't deserve to spend any time in prison, but he needs to be punished in some way.

UPDATE: My wife the lawyer just told me there's a cattle rustling law that applies? Only in Texas!

TEXAS PENAL CODE

TITLE 2. GENERAL PRINCIPLES OF CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY

CHAPTER 9. JUSTIFICATION EXCLUDING CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY

SECTION 9.43. PROTECTION OF THIRD PERSONS PROPERTY

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You know, if more criminals were shot while burglarizing people's homes, the less homes would get burglarized. Yeah, I don't believe in criminal's rights.

Edited by KatieDidIt

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Welcome to Texas, and watch your backside.

I'm a 3rd generation Houstonian, 6th generation Texan, and I've broken into several residences and cars at the request of their owners. The courts should decide who's guilty of burglary and what the punishment should be, not Joe Horn. If you can't see the logic behind that, I'd be happy to explain it to you.

Edited by memebag

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I'm a 3rd generation Houstonian, 6th generation Texasn, and I've broken into several residences and cars at the request of their owners. The courts should decide who's guilty of burglary and what the punishment should be, not Joe Horn. If you can't see the logic behind that, I'd be happy to explain it to you.
Anyone can be born in Texas. That doesn't make you a Texan. Taking up for a pair seasoned criminals who finally got what they had comining is about as UN-Texan as it gets. Your great-grand parents are probably rolling over in their grave right now.
What if these guys weren't robbing the house? What if there was some kind of emergency, and the neighbor sent these two men to his house to break in and get something? What if Joe Horn had been mistaken?I love the whole gunslinging Texan mystique, but I don't want anyone shooting me if my girlfriend's mom locked her keys in the car and needs me to break into her apartment to get her spare set.
Try exiting the front door instead of crawling back of the window you broke in the first place and that would be less likely. Oh yeah, try not to carry a bag full of loot out with you as well.

Touching on a thread I started recently about local news bias towards the families of HPD shootees.. On the news tonight, the widow of one of the suspects stated that: "if he (Joe Horn) was scared for his life, then why the hell did he come outside?". Maybe because Joe Horn, or any of us for that matter, shouldn't have to live in so much fear of criminals that we hide in our homes in the middle of the day. He walked out his front door and fired seconds later. Reports say that they were less than 15 feet away from him when he shot them. For them to not be in his front yard would only be a technicality.

Lets look at the most important fact that does apply:Joe Horn said on the tape: "Move and your dead". He warned them. If they had indeed broken-in with permission from the owner, then why did they continue to run when he confronted them with a shotgun and told them that they would die if they moved? All they had to do was stop, follow his commands, and the police would have come and sort the matter out. Only guilty men run.

Give it a week and some civil-rights jackass will be all over this. In the meantime, where's Redscare to weigh in on the matter?

Edited by Jeebus

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Give it a week and some civil-rights jackass will be all over this.

since they were black latinos, it will be interesting.

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Anyone can be born in Texas. That doesn't make you a Texan.

Actually, it does. Talking tough on the internet doesn't, though.

Taking up for a pair seasoned criminals who finally got what they had comining is about as UN-Texan as it gets.

Read my posts again. I never defended criminals. I said I don't want old men shooting people they think are robbers. Are there really people here who think that's an unreasonable desire?

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I said I don't want old men shooting people they think are robbers. Are there really people here who think that's an unreasonable desire?

Count me as one such person. I don't believe that people's rights to defend their persons or properties ought to be tied to age or gender, as you suggest.

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Actually, it does. Talking tough on the internet doesn't, though.

ROFL, someone's great grandparents are probably RIGL at this comment right now.

As for the shooting, its not really right, but I certainly do not feel bad the burglars got shot though.

Edited by webdude

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20 years ago we got a call in the middle of the night that people were breaking into my Dad's truck. My Dad went out there with a shot gun and forced them to crawl into the garage while he held a gun on them until the cops arrived.

A shotgun with an 18-inch barrel and loaded with birdshot is the way to do it. Either that or a pistol loaded with ratshot. Something that will injure and likely stop someone but not be fatal and that isn't likely to penetrate sheetrocked walls and still injure someone. And something where the defender doesn't feel the need to hesitate (or aim) so much before pulling the trigger.

Edited by TheNiche

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watching the news tonight (local fox news i think), the lead story was of the mom and tiny, cute baby of one of the robber "victims". the newscaster said the baby will never get a picture with his daddy again. i'm sorry, but i laughed my ass off. the kiddo might have a fighting chance without a criminal for a dad. local news is becoming more entertainment than informative. regardless whether or not the shooter had legal rights, he may have done a favor for that cute tiny tot. i think a slap on the wrist is in order for the shooter and community outpouring for the poor tyke.

in all reality, death was too severe for these dumb idiots. the neighbor should have shot at the knees.

one could extrapolate the "good intentions" of terrorists who want to serve allah. simply because you think you're doing good is not reason to take someone else's life. defending your own or the life of another is one thing, but stuff? no one deserves to die for taking stuff.

i think the neighbor was too "yahoo", but i don't think he deserves a prison sentence.

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You know, if more criminals were shot while burglarizing people's homes, the less homes would get burglarized. Yeah, I don't believe in criminal's rights.

I think this is exactly right. They might not have deserved to die, but brazenly emptying out someone's home in the middle of the day shouldn't be risk free, which, given the state of our communities and the police these days, it tends to be.

There's currently a pair working our neighborhood in Timbergrove. A lady went to walk her dog last week in the middle of the day and came back to find two guys loading her plasma TV and other valuables into the backseat of their car. She yelled at them to stop and they calmly looked at her, closed the door to the car, and got in and drove off (they had kicked in the front door). The cops said they likely wouldn't be able to do anything unless the stolen merchandise was found at the address the car was registered to - and it wasn't - and just this past week another neighbor saw the same car cruising slowly down another street in the neighborhood, ostensibly looking for another target to rob free of consequences.

Edited by cottonmather0

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I'm always happy when I hear burglars have been shot, that means they will never come to my house. It's not about the stuff it's about your right to feel safe in your own home.

The new bill says:

The building or vehicle must be occupied at the time for the deadly force provision to apply.

Seems to me Joe may have a problem.

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What if these guys weren't robbing the house? What if there was some kind of emergency, and the neighbor sent these two men to his house to break in and get something? What if Joe Horn had been mistaken?

I love the whole gunslinging Texan mystique, but I don't want anyone shooting me if my girlfriend's mom locked her keys in the car and needs me to break into her apartment to get her spare set.

"If" my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

If, If, If, you can speculate all day long about "what IF", the fact remains that 2 SEASONED criminals weren't breaking windows to get Auntie's keys, they were robbing Joe Horn's neighbor's house, and after that, they were walking on Joe Horn's frontyard, with a crowbar in their hand and coming towards Joe.

Lemme ask you memebag, when someone pulls a shotgun on you from 10 feet away, and you got a bag of stolen goods in your hand, do you move or do you temp fate and keep on walking towards the person holding a shotgun that just told you, "move, and your dead" ?

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I'm always happy when I hear burglars have been shot, that means they will never come to my house. It's not about the stuff it's about your right to feel safe in your own home.

The new bill says:

The building or vehicle must be occupied at the time for the deadly force provision to apply.

Seems to me Joe may have a problem.

No where in the Texas Penal COde does it state that the building or dwelling or vehicle must be occupied, can you supply a source for your statement?

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I guess I'm the only one that thinks the homeowner was an idiot and should have stayed in his house. It wasn't his property, and he took the law into his own hands, IMHO. Whether or not the burglars deserved to die is a moot point. This man only makes it easier for anti-gun liberals to prove their point. He had "no choice"? Yeah, he did, actually.

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Until you are put in these sorts of circumstances, all we can do is speculate on what "we" would have done. The perps weren't walking or running away from a man with a shotgun, they were coming at him. Mr. Horn's adrenaline was on overload, and a flight or fight mechanism in his brain took over. IMO, he was not thinking clearly as to what the consequences might be for his actions. Some people want to say he was "itchin' to shoot somebody." If that were the case, why call 911 FIRST, and try to get help, before taking matters into his own hands ?

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"If" my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

If, If, If, you can speculate all day long about "what IF", the fact remains that 2 SEASONED criminals weren't breaking windows to get Auntie's keys, they were robbing Joe Horn's neighbor's house, and after that, they were walking on Joe Horn's frontyard, with a crowbar in their hand and coming towards Joe.

And the fact remains that Joe Horn shouldn't be making decisions about who lives and dies.

"Seasoned criminals"? All I can find is they each had one arrest for drug offenses.

Lemme ask you memebag, when someone pulls a shotgun on you from 10 feet away, and you got a bag of stolen goods in your hand, do you move or do you temp fate and keep on walking towards the person holding a shotgun that just told you, "move, and your dead" ?

The transcript I read says he shouted "Boom! You're dead!", then he fired.

Are there any witnesses who claim the men approached Joe Horn? He's inconsistent about that. First he said:

"... he's down, he almost run down the street."

Then he said:

"I had no choice. They came in the front yard with me, man, I had no choice!"

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And the fact remains that Joe Horn shouldn't be making decisions about who lives and dies.

"Seasoned criminals"? All I can find is they each had one arrest for drug offenses.

The transcript I read says he shouted "Boom! You're dead!", then he fired.

I see. So, you are of the belief that this was the deadmen's FIRST time breaking into a house, and robbing it, and were just unfortunate to meet Mr.Horn while losing their virginity to the criminal world ?

BTW, could you provide a link to those transcripts please.

Are there any witnesses who claim the men approached Joe Horn? He's inconsistent about that. First he said:

"... he's down, he almost run down the street."

Then he said:

"I had no choice. They came in the front yard with me, man, I had no choice!"

Let's look at where the men were shot in conjunction to Mr.Horn's house, and what area of their bodies the fatal blasts occurred. Meme, were these two fledgling criminals shot in the back, whilest running away from Mr.Horn ? Could you please help me tell our fellow HAIFers what part of the body these two pillars of their community were shot and killed ?

Edited by TJones

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I see. So, you are of the belief that this was the deadmen's FIRST time breaking into a house, and robbing it, and were just unfortunate to meet Mr.Horn while losing their virginity to the criminal world ?

No, I believe neither of them were found guilty of breaking into any houses or robbing them, including this one. Innocent until proven guilty, right? And they'll never get to defend themselves.

BTW, could you provide a link to those transcripts please.

Sure: http://cbs2.com/national/topstories_story_321213110.html

Let's look at where the men were shot in conjunction to Mr.Horn's house, and what area of their bodies the fatal blasts occurred. Meme, were these two fledgling criminals shot in the back, whilest running away from Mr.Horn ? Could you please help me tell our fellow HAIFers what part of the body these two pillars of their community were shot and killed ?

Has that information been released? I don't see it in any of the news reports.

No matter where they were shot, no matter how many crimes they committed, Joe Horn's decisions aren't due process.

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"Seasoned criminals"? All I can find is they each had one arrest for drug offenses.

I read yesterday that one was on parole, and both had multple convictions for misdemeanors. I can't find it this morning, but I'll continue to look.

The transcript I read says he shouted "Boom! You're dead!", then he fired.

He said: "Move, you're dead.."

No, I believe neither of them were found guilty of breaking into any houses or robbing them, including this one. Innocent until proven guilty, right? And they'll never get to defend themselves.

Do you think you'd feel the same way if Joe Horn was your neighbor, and it was your house that was burglarized?

Edited by Jeebus

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I read yesterday that one was on parole, and both had multple convictions for misdemeanors. I can't find it this morning, but I'll continue to look.

Where did you read that?

Do you think you'd feel the same way if Joe Horn was your neighbor, and it was your house that was burglarized?

Absolutely. There's nothing in my house so valuable that someone should die over it. I'd rather come home and find everything gone than two corpses. Stuff is just stuff.

Are you so attached to your things that you'd want a neighbor to kill to protect them?

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Does anybody else find it odd that the two guys were South American and that they seemed to know that there was a huge pile of cash in that house?

Who keeps huge amounts of cash in their house?

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Does anybody else find it odd that the two guys were South American and that they seemed to know that there was a huge pile of cash in that house?

Where is that being reported?

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Where is that being reported?

The Chron: "The white bag one of the dead men had been carrying contained a large amount of cash, apparently taken from the house, Corbett said."

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The Chron: "The white bag one of the dead men had been carrying contained a large amount of cash, apparently taken from the house, Corbett said."

That article also says:

One had identification indicating he was from Puerto Rico, the other had documentation indicating he may have been from Puerto Rico, Colombia or the Dominican Republic, Corbett said.

Columbia is in South America, but Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic are not.

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watching the news tonight (local fox news i think), the lead story was of the mom and tiny, cute baby of one of the robber "victims". the newscaster said the baby will never get a picture with his daddy again. i'm sorry, but i laughed my ass off. the kiddo might have a fighting chance without a criminal for a dad. local news is becoming more entertainment than informative. regardless whether or not the shooter had legal rights, he may have done a favor for that cute tiny tot. i think a slap on the wrist is in order for the shooter and community outpouring for the poor tyke.

in all reality, death was too severe for these dumb idiots. the neighbor should have shot at the knees.

one could extrapolate the "good intentions" of terrorists who want to serve allah. simply because you think you're doing good is not reason to take someone else's life. defending your own or the life of another is one thing, but stuff? no one deserves to die for taking stuff.

i think the neighbor was too "yahoo", but i don't think he deserves a prison sentence.

Totally agree with you on this entire post. The broadcast I think is a total joke and made the mother and child as a victim, and in a way they were, but not of what they reported. They were a victim of a loser husband and his sidekick and would have continued to be so until they died. Now she can shack up with some other loser she finds.

My only misgivings that I heard from the transcript that I have read is that he went out with intention to shoot and stated it clearly.

If he had not placed the call at all, he would have gone off scott free and I would have bought him a beer for it.

As it stands now, I'd still buy him a beer, but I'd help contribute to his lawyer's fees. Can this be a HAIF project, BTW? :)

Mark:

As far as that new "occupation" sentence that was mentioned, it COULD be possible it's in a new draft that was put before the house a few months ago, but I'm not certain.

Do I feel sorry for the two burglers? No. Hell, I would have shot them myself in the same situation. I just wouldn't have called the cops.

Do I feel sorry for the Mom and kid? Not as much as you would think. If anything, the mother and child now have a chance to meet up with someone decent. Let's see if she knows to tell the difference.

Do I feel sorry for the shooter? Of course.

Will he get sued? I think he will be, and I WILL help contribute for his defense on that.

Did the media take the wrong side? From what I've seen of ONE report I saw (KRIV, I think), they reported it wrongly.

Is Redscare being unusually silent on this matter? Oh yeah. Probably waiting for us armchair lawyers to finish while he's laughing his ass off at us, spilling his vodka, and wondering what the hell is happening to our society.

Do I have a lousy posting style? Hell ya.

Edited by ricco67

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My only misgivings that I heard from the transcript that I have read is that he went out with intention to shoot and stated it clearly.

If he had not placed the call at all, he would have gone off scott free and I would have bought him a beer for it.

As it stands now, I'd still buy him a beer, but I'd help contribute to his lawyer's fees. Can this be a HAIF project, BTW? :)

Do I feel sorry for the two burglers? No. Hell, I would have shot them myself in the same situation. I just wouldn't have called the cops.

Do I feel sorry for the Mom and kid? Not as much as you would think. If anything, the mother and child now have a chance to meet up with someone decent. Let's see if she knows to tell the difference.

Do I feel sorry for the shooter? Of course.

Will he get sued? I think he will be, and I WILL help contribute for his defense on that.

That was part of my struggle mentioned in the OP. He told the dispatcher, "I'm going to kill them," which, without some good lawyering, is pretty damning when it comes to a self-defense argument or any argument that argues imminent danger against his person or his property. He should have just gone outside and confronted them without calling the cops and then he and his lawyer would have come up with a perfectly good story.

That said, at least he called the cops, and I think his frustration is palpable and understandable when he figures out that calling the cops wasn't going to stop them from, "getting away with it." In this sense, isn't he forced to take the law into his own hands if the cops fail in their duty to protect the neighborhood?

I don't feel sorry for the mom and daughter specifically because the father is dead. I feel sorry for them only in a clinical way that they were reliant on some guy who was obviously a dishonest scumbag and in that sense were victims of his own scumbaggedness and never had a chance, whether he gets killed by Joe Horn, gets killed by some other criminal associate, or ends up in prison.

Again, we can't all just go around shooting people we think are up to no good in our neighborhood, but this case certainly highlights the sorry state of policing these days that people can just get away with brazenly breaking into someone's house in broad daylight with no fear of consequences.

And finally, I wouldn't think it's that fishy to find a large bag of cash in the house, there could be lots of legitimate business reasons for someone to have a bunch of cash on hand, and if you've got nothing to hide and have an expectation that no one's going to come into your house and take your cash (which is reasonable), you would just leave it out to be found easily. We need more details on this part before we start making assumptions, I think. It doesn't sound like the cash was all they took (meaning they came just for the cash only), so I think it seems to be more of a normal burglary, with the added bonus for them of finding a large bag of cash.

Edited by cottonmather0

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Again, we can't all just go around shooting people we think are up to no good in our neighborhood, but this case certainly highlights the sorry state of policing these days that people can just get away with brazenly breaking into someone's house in broad daylight with no fear of consequences.

We could and it would certainly make the criminals a bit jittery, but there is a law against that.

I was at a bar near downtown a few months back and he was fed up with some of the crime in midtown and crime overall in Houston. He casually wondered if perhaps going around and shooting "known" criminals such as drug dealers and those that "act" like thugs wouldn't help throw a little clorox in the gene pool.

While I thought this was all fine and dandy as a theoritical debate, I seriously wondered if this guy was serious as he walked away. I thought about that conversation quite a bit and wondered if this is the kind of guy that might actually do it.

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That said, at least he called the cops, and I think his frustration is palpable and understandable when he figures out that calling the cops wasn't going to stop them from, "getting away with it." In this sense, isn't he forced to take the law into his own hands if the cops fail in their duty to protect the neighborhood?

Again, we can't all just go around shooting people we think are up to no good in our neighborhood, but this case certainly highlights the sorry state of policing these days that people can just get away with brazenly breaking into someone's house in broad daylight with no fear of consequences.

You make an excellent point about upholding the law in the absense of the police. I wonder if there is something on the books, or maybe in the city charter with the police department about their duties, and what can be done in their absence or deliquence.

I want to know where the police were. Pasedena is not that big. Were they all at a late lunch?

scumbaggedness
scumbaggery maybe?

And where the hell is Redscare on this one??

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See that's what's wrong with society nowadays, and the majority of it comes from Generation X. I guess us old Baby Boomers are fighting a losing battle to try and maintain some sense of right and wrong in this world.

Everyone these days are more worried about the civil rights of the criminals, than the civil rights of the honest hardworking taxpayers. Growing up in the 50's in Texas as a kid, you respected the law, you respected Law Enforcement. Growing up in the household of a peace officer maybe I am just a little bias, but I really don't think objectivity is necessary to understand right and wrong.

Growing up in Texas kids feared being sent off to "Gatesville" or "TYC". It was a bad place, and no one wanted any part of it. I heard horror stories from a kid I knew that spent several vacations there, Bobby was a pet project of my father, to try and straighten a screwed up kid out, who's parents neither gave a damn or had the means to do so. Bobby is now a senior loan officer at Wells Fargo and a great father and grandfather. Nowadays the Juvenile Detention System is nothing more than a proving ground for career criminals to learn the ropes of being a career criminal.

Prison use to be a bad place that no one wanted to go to. Was it cruel and a terrible place to be, hell yes it was, it's "PRISON" not Palm Springs. These days prison is nothing near what it use to be. In 1980 before Federal Judge William Wayne Justice ruled that Texas Prisons were "cruel and inhumane" and levied a new set of guidelines that the system had to abide by, to protect the civil rights of convicted felons, the prison population was 10,636 (recidivism rate = 30%). Today there are 135,655 (recidivism rate = 59%) and counting. TDC was a self sufficient, self funding system in 1980. Didn't cost the taxpayer a dime to incarcerate it's menaces to society. Today it costs $2,174,007,030.00 a year to house it's inmates. Prison's are now air-conditioned, they all have Tvs for their cells, (if you don't believe me, take a drive up to Huntsville and drive in front of the Walls Unit at night, and every cell is lit up with a TV, you can see it from the street as you drive by.) Prison is just a spot for them to rest up, pump some weights, and gain their weight back from their dope binges they've been on while on the streets. So they can be all healthy and get out and make another run at it. They are not force to work anymore, hard labor or otherwise, wouldn't want to violate their civil right not to have to hold a job, or having to get off their asses and do anything.

Of course John Q Citizen is still out there getting up at the crack of dawn, to go off to work, and make money to replace the crap that that sorry SOB stole, and traded for dope, or money for dope. And John Q's homeowners insurance didn't cover burglary, or maybe the cash stash he was putting back for the last 4 years to buy that boat he'd wanted his entire life. Where are John Q's civil rights, that protect him from being ripped off? Where is that bleeding hearted individual that gave the felons more protection than the victims, when John Q needed some help making ends meet last month?

And after all this worthless ranting, Joe Horn still faces whatever fate lies ahead. Ricco, if there is a defense fund for Joe Horn put together, you can sure count me in on that. Hopefully it never gets to that point. It's just a shame that he's being tried in the media, who can't even report accurately enough to get his age right the first time. He was reported as being in his 70's by several sources, when he is in fact only 61, even the account of the 911 conversation has been distorted by different sources, and some idiots seen to look at it as it was an actual "transcript", when it is the farthest thing from it. Just because some reporter or journalist writes down what he or she thinks is being said doesn't make it a transcript.

And for the record, there are a lot of things in my house you will get shot over. things that cannot be replaced, things that an insurance company cannot replace. Things that have been in my family for 200 years or more. I do what I can to protect them, ADT, Gun safes, etc. But believe you me, my closest neighbor is a Montgomery County Deputy Sheriff, and you get caught stealing down this road and you will be shot. And since all of this has come about, we are having notarized statements drawn up, giving each other permission to defend ours and each others domains by whatever means necessary.

Any of my generation out there remember brazen criminal activity like this going on 40 years ago? I can't recall it. Just like a little while back they had a rash of thugs just kicking in front doors and robbing people in broad daylight out in the Sugarland/Katy area. Things are just out of control. I suppose these to outstanding citizens that Joe Horn shot were here on work visas? No one mentioned whether or not what their documentation was, legal or not. They were to bust trying to crucify Joe Horn in the media.

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Bulletin - Eas Activation Requested Child Abduction Emergency Houston Police Department Relayed By National Weather Service Houston/Galveston TX 1230 PM CST Sun Nov 18 2007

... Amber Alert...

The Following Message Is Transmitted At The Request Of The Houston Police Department.

The Houston Police Department Is Searching For Pierce Ram. Pierce Is A Four Year Old Child Taken By An Unknown Suspect While He Was In A Tan Chevrolet Tahoe... Texas License Plate 43l-ZP2. The Incident Occurred At Approximately 1105 AM CST On Sunday November 18th.

If You Have Any Information Regarding This Abduction... Contact The Houston Police Department At 713-306-3600.

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I have no interest in participating in this vigilante lovefest. Justifiable homicide or not, reading posts that say they are "happy" to read that people are killed, or that they would buy the shooter a beer, make my stomach turn. I have little sympathy for burglars. I have less for vigilantes.

You probably would not like my opinion on the value Americans place on property over human life, anyway.

Note to Mark Barnes: Last time I checked, Puerto Rico is part of the US. Generally, US citizens of hispanic ancestry do not need "work visas", or "documentation, legal or not".

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I have no interest in participating in this vigilante lovefest.

But I'm glad you did. Reading someone else's objections to this makes me a little less scared of my neighbors.

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I have no interest in participating in this vigilante lovefest. Justifiable homicide or not, reading posts that say they are "happy" to read that people are killed, or that they would buy the shooter a beer, make my stomach turn. I have little sympathy for burglars. I have less for vigilantes.

You probably would not like my opinion on the value Americans place on property over human life, anyway.

Note to Mark Barnes: Last time I checked, Puerto Rico is part of the US. Generally, US citizens of hispanic ancestry do not need "work visas", or "documentation, legal or not".

Thanks Red, I stand to be corrected. I guess I was concentrating more on the other fella from the Dominican Republic or Columbia or where ever, they weren't real clear on that either, typical media frenzy.

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I would like to hear your legal opinion though Red, on the verbiage I high lighted in the Penal code, and it's application to this situation or not. Everyone has their right to their moral opinions, and to whether you agree or disagree with this particular incident. I just hope it never happens to you and you have to have your opinion changed the hard way.

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But I'm glad you did. Reading someone else's objections to this makes me a little less scared of my neighbors.

Why are you scared? Do you plan on following your 2 scumbag buddies lead and go break into your neighbor's houses with a crowbar to gain entry and steal their stuff ?

Edited by TJones

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Why are you scared? Do you plan on following your 2 scumbag buddies lead and go break into your neighbor's houses with a crowbar to gain entry and steal their stuff ?

My scumbag buddies? What the hell are you talking about?

I'm scared that you might get it in your head that I'm a danger to your property and kill me on the spot.

Being opposed to Joe Horn's vigilantism doesn't equate to sympathy for criminals.

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Bulletin - Eas Activation Requested Child Abduction Emergency Houston Police Department Relayed By National Weather Service Houston/Galveston TX 1230 PM CST Sun Nov 18 2007

... Amber Alert...

The Following Message Is Transmitted At The Request Of The Houston Police Department.

The Houston Police Department Is Searching For Pierce Ram. Pierce Is A Four Year Old Child Taken By An Unknown Suspect While He Was In A Tan Chevrolet Tahoe... Texas License Plate 43l-ZP2. The Incident Occurred At Approximately 1105 AM CST On Sunday November 18th.

If You Have Any Information Regarding This Abduction... Contact The Houston Police Department At 713-306-3600.

Child was recovered, car theif let him out a few miles away.

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