Will The Houston Pavilions Become Bayou Place South?

[bkjones98]

It is symbolic of the ongoing HAIF struggle between those who define cities by who lives and works in them, versus those who define them by how they look as they drive by them on the freeway.

That was really funny.

[GovernorAggie]

Are the sidewalks between the 3 blocks still there? If so, will they be public or private space?

Yes, the sidewalks are still there. I can't see why they would become private space. We would've seen or heard something (I would hope) if that were the case, similar to Bolsover with the Sonoma development in the Village. The 'private' space will be the crosswalks over those intersections.

[memebag]

I can't see why they would become private space.

Why wouldn't they?

[Jax]

Because it's not common for sidewalks to be considered private space... is it?

[memebag]

Because it's not common for sidewalks to be considered private space... is it?

It is if they become part of a shopping mall. Is there any way to find out for sure?

[Jax]

I don't think there is, unless you want to email the developer. From this rendering, it looks to me like a public sidewalk, you never know...

My best guess is that the "exterior" sidewalks (previously existing sidewalks) will remain public space, while the "interior" sidewalks (between the two buildings on each block) will most likely be private space.

Edited November 21, 2007 by Jax

[Houston19514]

I don't think there is, unless you want to email the developer. From this rendering, it looks to me like a public sidewalk, you never know...

My best guess is that the "exterior" sidewalks (previously existing sidewalks) will remain public space, while the "interior" sidewalks (between the two buildings on each block) will most likely be private space.

You are exactly correct, Jax

[pwright1]

The simple truth Houston is if you don't create some sort of active, livable downtown you will continue to be the laughing stock of the United States. Someone mentioned their big house, big truck and huge yard. That is fine. All big metropolitan areas have this. But for god's sake have an option for Houston citizens. Not all Houstonians love cars, freeways and strip malls. If that is all you have to offer visitors, business travelers and your own citizens then you are lower than low. To hell with tunnels and malls and everything enclosed. The weather/heat is no excuse. Is it hot now? I had a great opportunity to move to Houston but the more I thought about it the less excited I got. So I decided to stay in Seattle. At least I can walk the streets, bike around and visit our thriving downtown which I truely love. Houston you have so much potential. Maybe one day dt Houston will look sort of like dt Seattle.

...and build some housing downtown. It is probably the most important element to a vibrant dt.

[Subdude]

Well I wouldn't say Houston is a laughing stock - at least I hope not. And like it or not, weather is going to have an impact on how cities develop. It may be pleasant in Houston in November, but that doesn't make the May-September weather nicer. To me the tunnels are a great way in which pedestrian areas have adapted to the local climate. If anything, I would argue for exanding the tunnel network.

I've never been to Seattle apart from the airport, but how representative are those photos of downtown? The prominent signs for Barneys, Tiffany, J Crew etc lead me to think this may be a bit more "upscale" an area than is the norm.

[pwright1]

It is downtown Seattle and its more than just upscale. Local retailers, discounters like Ross and Bed/Bath & Beyond, markets and just about everything else. I would disagree with you on the tunnels. Please don't expand that. If New Orleans can live without tunnels Houston can too. And they have or had by far the most vibrant dt in the south. Not saying getting rid of whats there but certainly not expanding.

[Subdude]

Is that kind of downtown something that Seattle set out intentionally to create? Do they do anything to foster it?

I have nothing against vibrant pedestrian-oriented cities, but I do wonder if that kind of development can be successfully retrofitted to a city once it is auto-oriented. A lot of what people think of as an urban environment has to do with scale, of buildings, streets, and sidewalks. Once a city is auto-oriented can it really return to an urban scale? It seems at best you get isolated "urban" developments surrounded by parking garages so people can drive in to sample an "urban" experience. If that is the outcome, I'm not sure I see a clear advantage over Houston's current development scheme, with malls and tunnels and such (that is only referring to physical layout, not broader concerns like the environmental impact of different development models).

[musicman]

And like it or not, weather is going to have an impact on how cities develop. It may be pleasant in Houston in November, but that doesn't make the May-September weather nicer.

Ch 11 had a story related to weather yesterday. merchants in the "walkable" shopping areas such as rice village had few customers while the enclosed malls were bustling.

[memebag]

The simple truth Houston is if you don't create some sort of active, livable downtown you will continue to be the laughing stock of the United States.

Oh my god! You mean, the other cities are ... laughing at us???

Quick! Stop spreading out! Build bike paths! More sidewalks cafes! We have to change everything that attracted people for the last 50 years! We have to become VIBRANT!!! Everyone, start vibrating!

Won't someone think of the setbacks? We finally have a reason to densify: peer pressure!

[KinkaidAlum]

Ch 11 had a story related to weather yesterday. merchants in the "walkable" shopping areas such as rice village had few customers while the enclosed malls were bustling.

Shocker!

It's Thanksgiving weekend. Black Friday. Everyone knows that insane people head to the malls to get their "bargains."

That said, I do think Houstonians are "soft." We Houstonians have gotten so used to being inside (whether it's your home, car, work, tunnels, malls, etc...) that any type of weather excuse is now used from everything from why people don't shop, walk, attend sporting events, etc...

It's kinda sad. I read the UH sports boards and people were talking about how small the crowd was yesterday in large part due to 50 degrees and rainy weather. I attended the BC/Miami game yesterday. It was 28 at kickoff with wind gusts in the 30s and the place was PACKED.

It's time for Houstonians to GO OUTSIDE. Maybe it's because we spend so much time indoors that we don't really care how ugly our city can be from the outside?

[RedScare]

The simple truth Houston is if you don't create some sort of active, livable downtown you will continue to be the laughing stock of the United States.

I stopped reading after this sentence. The "simple truth" is that someone who claims Houston is THE laughing stock of the US is "simply" full of it.

Perfect? No. Areas to improve? Absolutely. Laughing stock? Only your post.

I am sorry I wasted 30 seconds of my life responding to your hyperbole.

[musicman]

Shocker!

It's Thanksgiving weekend. Black Friday. Everyone knows that insane people head to the malls to get their "bargains."

The ones that were shocked were the merchants.

It's time for Houstonians to GO OUTSIDE. Maybe it's because we spend so much time indoors that we don't really care how ugly our city can be from the outside?

It's about comfort for most. People would rather take advantage of technology such as AC/heating vs. living primitively.

[lockmat]

But for god's sake have an option for Houston citizens.

Options for single professionals, families who make more than 100k and the rich you mean?

[KinkaidAlum]

It's about comfort for most. People would rather take advantage of technology such as AC/heating vs. living primitively.

LOL.

Yes, shopping outdoors in New York, Chicago, Boston, San Fran, Portland, Seattle, etc... is so easy, even a

can do it!

[Jax]

Haha! Yeah, I guess that's why there are so many cavemen in NYC an San Francisco.

[musicman]

LOL.

Yes, shopping outdoors in New York, Chicago, Boston, San Fran, Portland, Seattle, etc... is so easy, even a

can do it!

well most people don't shop for boats and hoes.

[Trae]

The simple truth Houston is if you don't create some sort of active, livable downtown you will continue to be the laughing stock of the United States. Someone mentioned their big house, big truck and huge yard. That is fine. All big metropolitan areas have this. But for god's sake have an option for Houston citizens. Not all Houstonians love cars, freeways and strip malls. If that is all you have to offer visitors, business travelers and your own citizens then you are lower than low. To hell with tunnels and malls and everything enclosed. The weather/heat is no excuse. Is it hot now? I had a great opportunity to move to Houston but the more I thought about it the less excited I got. So I decided to stay in Seattle. At least I can walk the streets, bike around and visit our thriving downtown which I truely love. Houston you have so much potential. Maybe one day dt Houston will look sort of like dt Seattle.

...and build some housing downtown. It is probably the most important element to a vibrant dt.

This is Christmas time in Seattle. Not normal Seattle.

[WesternGulf]

Well I wouldn't say Houston is a laughing stock - at least I hope not. And like it or not, weather is going to have an impact on how cities develop.

Yeah and our architecture use to reflect our weather also until we thought underground tunnels were better than having awnings over retail like the Rice Hotel and FOLEY's building. New Orleans and Miami Beach are just as hot and humid as Houston but it does not keep everyone indoors.

[Trae]

I do wish the tunnels were never built though and awnings were built over retail all over Downtown. Imagine if all those tunnel workers/shoppers were walking Downtown streets instead. The tunnels have spoiled so many workers there, that they won't go up because it is "too hot" and they won't go up because it is "too cold" (like now). I hate it.

[kdog08]

I think the main problem with adding more residents to downtown is that uptown is where most of the high-rises are being built. Hopefully, the light rail line will make uptown into a pedestrian environment. I don't think Downtown will surpass Uptown in residents.

[pwright1]

This is Christmas time in Seattle. Not normal Seattle.

Trae the first pic was taken this past Saturday the others were taken several weeks ago.

Lockmat what are you talking about?

Redscare I was not the one who made the claim that Houstion is the laughing stock. I'm just telling you whats been said and what I read.

[Mister X]

Seattle, NYC, Chi, SF, Boston, and LA are all laughing stocks for one reason or another. You can now pass this information all over the internet because now it has been said, written and read. It's too late, you can not un-read it now. Seattle has been branded a laughing stock forever. But don't worry, it may or may not be booming and have thousands of people pouring into it every month like Houston, but I'm sure it has potential too.

I laugh at Seattle. Now you can go on to a Seattle based web site and tell everyone that their town has been laughed at. It has been written and been established. Now that you've read it, the statement is just as legitimate as the 'laughing stock' claim about Houston. In other words PW, now you have more internet dribble to waste people's time with.

[Trae]

Trae the first pic was taken this past Saturday the others were taken several weeks ago.

Lockmat what are you talking about?

Redscare I was not the one who made the claim that Houstion is the laughing stock. I'm just telling you whats been said and what I read.

Oh Saturday. The big shopping day after Black Friday?

[RedScare]

I find it much easier to deal with my laughingstock status when it is sunny and 65 to 75 degrees, like it is this week, versus raining and 30s, as it is in Seattle. If laughing at Houston while it is raining and cold outside helps relieve the suicidal tendencies that Seattle is infamous for, then we are glad to help.

Just curious, why did you only take photos on the only sunny day Seattle had in a month? Is it perhaps because the crowds aren't so great on a typical Seattle day?

[lockmat]

Even if the crowds aren't there when it's raining, the streetscape in the pictures is really nice.

[RedScare]

Even if the crowds aren't there when it's raining, the streetscape in the pictures is really nice.

Yes, that is true. And we ALL know that it is far more important for a city to LOOK good than to actually BE good for the residents who actually live there.

[Zippy]

I just noticed that the HP will have a Pete's Dueling Piano Bar. When I lived in Dallas we would drive all the way from Uptown to Addison just to go to this place and it was always packed. It should draw a lot of the midtown folks into the Pavilions. When they opened the one up in downtown Fort Worth the line was out the door for months.

Not to squish your flowers, but there already is a dueling piano bar in midtown.. "Howl at the moon".. I hadn't been to the one in Houston yet, but the one in San Antonio is ALWAYS packed as well..

Cheers!

[musicman]

And we ALL know that it is far more important for a city to LOOK good than to actually BE good for the residents who actually live there.

of course a woodlands resident would say that.

[lockmat]

Yes, that is true. And we ALL know that it is far more important for a city to LOOK good than to actually BE good for the residents who actually live there.

It was just an observation. HAIFys are always wishing for better architecture. We're always yearning for nice streetscapes on these new structures. I'm just saying, there's no reason we can't make our city LOOk better while it BECOMES better. Don't you agree?

[PuroAztlan]

"THE HOUSTON PAVILION WILL BE GREAT SUCCESS!"

[lockmat]

"THE HOUSTON PAVILION WILL BE GREAT SUCCESS!"

That is hilarious!

[VelvetJ]

It was just an observation. HAIFys are always wishing for better architecture. We're always yearning for nice streetscapes on these new structures. I'm just saying, there's no reason we can't make our city LOOk better while it BECOMES better. Don't you agree?

Precisely. Why must it always be one or the other for some Houstonians? If something is built for the citizens of Houston, what is wrong with it looking nice as well? As my mother would tell me, " if you are going to iron the shirt, iron the entire thing including the areas people can't see". If something is built in Houston, every aspect of it should be important, not just the functionality of it. Maybe it's time for Houston to give a bit more attention to how things look in the city as opposed to only focusing on whether something will make someone a profit or how cheaply something can be done.

Appearance matters and it doesn't always have to be at the expense of qaulity or functionality.

[RedScare]

Maybe it's time for Houston to give a bit more attention to how things look in the city as opposed to only focusing on whether something will make someone a profit or how cheaply something can be done.

So, who is this Houston fellow of whom you speak? I would like to meet him, as he seems to control everthing that is built in the city.

[lockmat]

So, who is this Houston fellow of whom you speak? I would like to meet him, as he seems to control everthing that is built in the city.

lol, funny

[tanith27]

I grew up in the Pacific Northwest and have to chime in on the Seattle thing a bit. Yes it gets rain, but Houston gets more. The winters can be cool and damp, but thats what seasons are about. Houston winters are much nicer, Seattle summers are impossible to beat. But the reason I live in the Heights is because it reminds me of the artsy side of Seattle. The outdoor cafes, the walkable neighborhoods, the art galleries, the live music venues, the mature trees are all things I found back home. Honestly when my company told me they were transferring me here, I was not impressed. I had no desire to move to a city that offered nothing more than concrete for entertainment. This was 7 years ago. A lot has changed, including my perception of Houston. I'd still take Seattle over Houston any day, but H-town has grown on me (and will get better as mass transit and inner-loop development occurs) and I think the biggest battle that Houston has to win is perception to the masses. Perception trumps reality...Houston is not a laughing stock, but our city has to do a better job of marketing itself to the rest of the country that thinks we are. And to do that we need to find a reason to bring people here to visit. What does Houston offer that can't be found in other places? Once we have that identified, we need to exploit it.

[C2H]

Seattle, NYC, Chi, SF, Boston, and LA are all laughing stocks for one reason or another. You can now pass this information all over the internet because now it has been said, written and read. It's too late, you can not un-read it now. Seattle has been branded a laughing stock forever. But don't worry, it may or may not be booming and have thousands of people pouring into it every month like Houston, but I'm sure it has potential too.

I laugh at Seattle. Now you can go on to a Seattle based web site and tell everyone that their town has been laughed at. It has been written and been established. Now that you've read it, the statement is just as legitimate as the 'laughing stock' claim about Houston. In other words PW, now you have more internet dribble to waste people's time with.

pretty funny there Mister X. I guess No one can really argue with logic.

[memebag]

I don't think there is, unless you want to email the developer.

That worked. Someone at "edginc" says the sidewalks will remain public space.

[PuroAztlan]

<br />I grew up in the Pacific Northwest and have to chime in on the Seattle thing a bit. Yes it gets rain, but Houston gets more. The winters can be cool and damp, but thats what seasons are about. Houston winters are much nicer, Seattle summers are impossible to beat. But the reason I live in the Heights is because it reminds me of the artsy side of Seattle. The outdoor cafes, the walkable neighborhoods, the art galleries, the live music venues, the mature trees are all things I found back home. Honestly when my company told me they were transferring me here, I was not impressed. I had no desire to move to a city that offered nothing more than concrete for entertainment. This was 7 years ago. A lot has changed, including my perception of Houston. I'd still take Seattle over Houston any day, but H-town has grown on me (and will get better as mass transit and inner-loop development occurs) and I think the biggest battle that Houston has to win is perception to the masses. Perception trumps reality...Houston is not a laughing stock, but our city has to do a better job of marketing itself to the rest of the country that thinks we are. And to do that we need to find a reason to bring people here to visit. What does Houston offer that can't be found in other places? Once we have that identified, we need to exploit it.<br />

I've heard (from people that lived there) Seattle is a depressing place to be. Its not even a blip on the international radar. What's it known for besides that "space needle" and a bunch of heroin overdosing 90's grunge rockers? Houston offers far more, which is why people come here for employment why were the fourth largest city and still rapidly growing. Id pick Houston over Seattle any day. But that's just me. I thought this thread was about the Houston Pavilions.

[dcdude]

What's it known for besides that "space needle" and a bunch of heroin overdosing 90's grunge rockers?

A little company called Microsoft....

[Trae]

And Starbucks that you see on every other corner...

[PuroAztlan]

<br /><br />A little company called Microsoft....<br /><br />

<br /><br /><br />

Microsoft may be headquartered in Redmond Washington but most people associate Microsoft with Bill Gates not Seattle.

[GovernorAggie]

*AHEM* So has anyone noticed the Pavilions construction progress this week? I was at the parade Thursday and was standing at the corner of Dallas @ San Jacinto and thought about how much nicer it'll be this time next year when HP is done. People attending the parade may be able to get their first look at HP.

[N Judah]

Pomo has been dead since 1996. And that pose is out too, Sunny Jim. The new thing is to care passionately and be right wing.

The pursuit of authenticity!

[mojeaux131]

Is there a way to add residential capacity downtown (or in a nearby area like the east side) that isn't only for the super rich? The more people that live DT (or close by), the more people will go to HP (sorry, just had to say it to make sure people know it's connected to the topic, heeeee )

[Subdude]

Shocker!

It's Thanksgiving weekend. Black Friday. Everyone knows that insane people head to the malls to get their "bargains."

That said, I do think Houstonians are "soft." We Houstonians have gotten so used to being inside (whether it's your home, car, work, tunnels, malls, etc...) that any type of weather excuse is now used from everything from why people don't shop, walk, attend sporting events, etc...

It's kinda sad. I read the UH sports boards and people were talking about how small the crowd was yesterday in large part due to 50 degrees and rainy weather. I attended the BC/Miami game yesterday. It was 28 at kickoff with wind gusts in the 30s and the place was PACKED.

It's time for Houstonians to GO OUTSIDE. Maybe it's because we spend so much time indoors that we don't really care how ugly our city can be from the outside?

There sometimes seems to be a somewhat moralistic tone when people talk about avoiding Houston weather and the tunnel system in particular. Is it really somehow better to be outside? Does it impart backbone or something? I would agree that you can almost totally avoid outside weather in Houston better than in almost any other city I know, but I never felt there was anything wrong about that. I suspect that if it werent' the case, it would be a lot smaller city.

[VelvetJ]

So, who is this Houston fellow of whom you speak? I would like to meet him, as he seems to control everthing that is built in the city.

I will venture away from my rule Redscare.

For those who do not realize it, there is no single person who controls everything built in Houston, and I find it quite interesting that some (not only you Redscare) can't seem to figure out what my reference to "Houston" is. It's all about tones. It has been my experience that different cities have different tones and those tones have a tendency to reflect themselves in not only the people but in the city environments as well. Is the fact so many buildings in Dallas have night lighting because a single person owns all of the buildings there? Does the fact Chicago overall has such a great variety of great architecture because a single individual has owned all of the buildings over the years? I've used this example a million times but would the Mercer design have EVEN BEEN CONSIDERED for Buckhead in Atlanta, or Uptown in Dallas, or Downtown San Diego (please no technical responses regarding zoning laws )? My point is I have watched the tone in Houston change in the past 10-15 years especially in architectural design and it has been tough to witness considering I witnessed a time of great architectural choices for the city. A tone seemed to have been set in Houston where forward-thinking ideas all but had disappeared, and where mediocre architecture as a whole seemed to had become the rule of thumb. There have been some exceptions of course like 1500 Louisiana, and the Chapel at St. Thomas, but overall the designs for Houston in recent history has been blah, and I personally believe it is because a tone has been set in the city where blah has become acceptable. So for every great piece we get, there are 4 more blah pieces to counter it.

I believe it was here where someone made a post not long ago about there being a tone in Texas and Houston where ANYTHING was possible. Being on the cutting edge was not a bad thing. Today, without skipping a beat someone is ready to jump with not only why something can't be done but why it shouldn't be done. It seems most people forgot a building does not have to be a trillion dollar spectacle to have a quality design.... MainPlace anyone?

I must say however in the past year I have seen signs of a possible tone tilt. I hope it continues.

So Redscare when you read my tagline and some of my posts, hopefully you will now understand my references to Houston is not to a individual person who controls all in the city, but to a tone and a overall attitude in the city that manifests itself in different things (SPOOKY).