woolie Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Sigh, yet again the police stopped me. However, each time until now, the officer has relented, admitting after my inquiries that there is in fact no law banning photography of public places. There is just "Metro Policy" or a "Directive," but in fact there is no statute. Today marks the first time an officer has answered in the affirmative, that such a law exists. Curiously, I was unable to find it in the city codes at houstontx.gov, or in any federal or state law.There needs to be some solidarity and a kind of public protest to raise awareness of this issue in Houston. I intend to write letters to my council person and the mayor about the issue. If officers are allowed to continually stop and arbitrarily threaten photographers with imaginary laws, HAIF wouldn't exactly have much source material to work with.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidtownCoog Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 I am downtown every day and this is indeed an urban legend. And it perpetuated by lots of clueless people. Even NYC does not have a photo ban. Could you imagine?Cops for the most part are just working security for a management company and just wish to rush you off private property. For example, check out the private property markings along Dallas at CenterPoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevfiv Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 not local, but useful (photographer's rights):http://www.krages.com/phoright.htmand there's nothing in the city code (searchable):http://www.houstontx.gov/codes/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jax Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 I don't understand what good a photo ban would do, even in NYC or Baghdad for that matter. If somebody wanted to do something bad, they would probably not want to give themselves away in public, they could use google maps, a plethora of websites, or just buy a telephoto lens. I have never understood how stopping somebody from taking a photo could ever be a security measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidtownCoog Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 It's just a private property issue. For all they know you are Michael Mooore working on your next expose of half-truths. No company wants to sign up for that.Back in the 90s we were routinely chased away from Shell in Deer Park and some of the other plants near La Porte.They don't take kindly to picture takers out that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
memebag Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 In the early 90s, I started video taping the interior of local malls. I was run off many times. I was told that the mall stores didn't want their layouts copied. Some kind of trade secret thing, but that sounds like BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 There needs to be some solidarity and a kind of public protest to raise awareness of this issue in Houston. I intend to write letters to my council person and the mayor about the issue.I'm not all that into organized protests. I am into civil disobedience of imaginary laws. I am also into daring cops to arrest me over said imaginary laws, rubbing their noses in their own ____ loudly and in public like a dog that has yet to be housebroken.In the early 90s, I started video taping the interior of local malls. I was run off many times. I was told that the mall stores didn't want their layouts copied. Some kind of trade secret thing, but that sounds like BS.I've been run off by a few stores too. But when you're on their turf, you really do have to do as they say or they can kick you out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 the cops are just itchin' to use their taser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolie Posted October 25, 2007 Author Share Posted October 25, 2007 I'm not all that into organized protests. I am into civil disobedience of imaginary laws. I am also into daring cops to arrest me over said imaginary laws, rubbing their noses in their own ____ loudly and in public like a dog that has yet to be housebroken.I've been run off by a few stores too. But when you're on their turf, you really do have to do as they say or they can kick you out.I've considered doing this -- but I'd prefer to have the lawyer and bail arranged beforehand. Hopefully RedScare will come around and point me towards a law office with a taste for pro bono civil rights work. I'm not all that into organized protests. I am into civil disobedience of imaginary laws. I am also into daring cops to arrest me over said imaginary laws, rubbing their noses in their own ____ loudly and in public like a dog that has yet to be housebroken.I've been run off by a few stores too. But when you're on their turf, you really do have to do as they say or they can kick you out.Yes, I'm aware of the rights and limitations while on private property... but this was on a public sidewalk. I wouldn't be complaining if I wasn't being threatened with secret laws.The best part of the story is that the Fingers building and Houston Pavilions (the area I was photographing) have public real-time user-controlled construction webcams. I could be surveilling from the comfort and safety of my own, anonymous home, instead of out on my bike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbannomad Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 I can understand the mall since you are on/in private property, but so long as you are on a public easement there is nothing they can do... Well nothing legally, though cops will try since it's a "new world" we live in. A friend of mine was "detained" in South Salt Lake City for this (and arguing with the cops that she could indeed take photos), they later give her a small settlement and apology for her trouble. It's amazing how many cops and security guards believe it's illegal to take photographs of something in plain site from a public easement. What's even better is how they INSIST this is true despite the fact that it isn't. I mean if you truly don't know the law take their info back to your car and call in to someone who actually knows the law before making a fool out of yourself. Save some face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNiche Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 I've considered doing this -- but I'd prefer to have the lawyer and bail arranged beforehand. Hopefully RedScare will come around and point me towards a law office with a taste for pro bono civil rights work. My hunch is that although this isn't Red's specialty, he might just take the same sort of sadistic pleasure in prosecuting such a case as I'd take in being wrongfully arrested in front of dozens of witnesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidtownCoog Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Check you feet. That sidewalk might not be as private as you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolie Posted October 25, 2007 Author Share Posted October 25, 2007 Anyway, the reason I went out in the first place was to contribute some photos to the Cranespotting thread. Since this in the photos section, here's two I took before I was stopped. Houston Pavilions New HCC Building Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liammclaren Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Woolie, where were you stopped? Downtown? Just randomly stopped? I've heard of this happening, but it's never happened to me. A cop just shows up and tells you to stop taking pics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolie Posted October 25, 2007 Author Share Posted October 25, 2007 Woolie, where were you stopped? Downtown? Just randomly stopped? I've heard of this happening, but it's never happened to me. A cop just shows up and tells you to stop taking pics?Yes, downtown at the location in the top photo. This is about the 5th time I've been stopped, but the first time an officer has told me there is a law against it. Usually I'm just taking pictures and an officer approaches me and tells me to stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liammclaren Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 so how do you handle it? do you tell them that sorry, it's legal to take a pic of something while on public property? I personally would probably have a hard time being polite in such a situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdude Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Was it a cop or just a security guard? Not to put too fine a point on it, but a lot of the latter are, shall we say, not the sharpest tools in the shed (no offense to anyone reading). They get the idea in their little minds that taking pictures somehow constitutes a security threat. Like preventing photos will somehow contribute to "homeland security." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolie Posted October 25, 2007 Author Share Posted October 25, 2007 Was it a cop or just a security guard?I wouldn't have posted this if it was a rentacop.... I'm not Thomas Hawk (boo hoo, security guard scared me.) It was HPD. I recorded his name and badge num. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolie Posted October 25, 2007 Author Share Posted October 25, 2007 so how do you handle it? do you tell them that sorry, it's legal to take a pic of something while on public property? I personally would probably have a hard time being polite in such a situation.The first couple times this happened, it was scary and hard to stay cool. I've been through it enough times to not really bat an eyelash anymore. Anyway, yes, you tell the person detaining you that you are within your rights to take pictures. That there is long standing legal precedent that protects photography of public spaces. That it is well-covered by First Amendment protections of speech and the press. Then you listen to 10 minutes of "9/11 changed it, the laws are different now." After this, you inform the officer this is not the case, at which point he tells you that he will arrest you if you continue. After the last step, you walk away angry, realizing how quietly the rule of law slipped away as the foundation of society. Then you post about it on the internet, and wait for the FBI to come knocking.... etc. etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevfiv Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 i have luckily never been stopped by a police officer - but i would kindly remind him/her that there is no such law in any code preventing photography from streets, sidewalks and other public spaces. Krages suggests that if your rights are violated, to perhaps go to the news with it - or post it on the internet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSOM Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 I wouldn't have posted this if it was a rentacop.... I'm not Thomas Hawk (boo hoo, security guard scared me.) It was HPD. I recorded his name and badge num. So what were the name and badge #? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest danax Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 i have luckily never been stopped by a police officer - but i would kindly remind him/her that there is no such law in any code preventing photography from streets, sidewalks and other public spaces. Just tell them next time that you're a commercial real estate appraiser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdude Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Just tell them next time that you're a commercial real estate appraiser. Yeah, but no one should have to make up stories to justify doing what is perfectly legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest danax Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Yeah, but no one should have to make up stories to justify doing what is perfectly legal.I agree.I was in Ciudad Juarez a couple of years ago taking some pics in the parking lot of the American Consulate and was told by the Policia to follow them into the station, where they took me in a room and made me show them the pics on the viewfinder. This was during a period of drug cartel violence so it was understandable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jax Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 It would be cool if you could get them to write a story about photographer rights in the paper. I remember a similar story got into a paper in Montreal while I was there. The Quebec legal system has some WEIRD rules regarding public photography. I'm pretty sure you're not allowed to take anybody's picture without their consent, and that applies to large groups of people, pedestrians, concerts, etc. Usually you can get away with it, but if you published a street photo or posted it online, and one of the people saw it, they could prosecute. Talk about a dumb law. At least it's not imaginary though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidtownCoog Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Houston Press might bite on something like this.The Chron. Well, they are too busy with stories on Mexican Millionaires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jax Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Yeah, I agree. I think it was something similar to Houston Press that wrote about photography in Montreal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevfiv Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 might be kind of fun to tag along with Mr. Lomax (or anyone there wanting to write it up...) and face the offenders. although i don't know what the Houston Press legal dept would think of that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbannomad Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Below is a link to the story about my friend in SLC. It was originally run by the Salt Lake Weekly (their Houston Press) and apparently later a follow up was done by the Tribune (their Chron). I've searched but site but a was a couple of years ago and looks like it's no longer available online, at least from my 60 seconds of searching. Any way, here are a couple of pieces from the story:http://robm.me.uk/2005/08/29/woman-sues-po...fication-demandNot that it will necessarily help, but here you can download a copy of the "photograhers rights" to carry with you:http://www.krages.com/phoright.htmInteresting Info:http://www.usatoday.com/tech/columnist/and...hy-rights_x.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 If an HPD officer stops you for photograpy while on public property, ask him to call for a supervisor. HPD regulations require that an officer comply with that request. It may take a while, but the sergeant will show up. Anyone can ask you for ID, but you don't have to identify yourself unless you are committing a crime or are under arrest. You do not have to show a drivers license unless you are operating a motor vehicle. If you are asked to leave private property, do so, or you risk arrest for trespass. You cannot be arrested for trespass without notice that you are trespassing. If there is no sign, fence, or any of the other statutory notices, you cannot be dragged off to jail for trespass unless you refuse to leave when asked. An officer may ask you to move to one side of a sidewalk if you are obstructing others, but he cannot make you stop photographing a building. Federal law may be different. Thanks to my anonymous criminal defense attorney friend for providing the above information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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