San Jacinto Park At 3523 Independence Pkwy.

[LarryDallas]

I had someone come visit me from Chicago and took them to go see the tourist spots around town. The other day we went to the park to see the momument and the USS Texas. I drive down Battleground road and take the right that takes you right to the monument. About 1/2 mile down the road I see a car turn around. There is a sign that says to use the Battleground road enterance so I go back that way and find a booth to collect money out there. WTF?...this park has been 100% free since day 1 and so had the monument since it was completed in 1939.

Anyway, I pay and drive up to find that the displays that were free have been further reduced. For those of you who have not been to this place in the early 90s and prior to that it used to be 100% free except for the elevator ride to the observation deck. There were 2 main halls full of display cases on both sides of the 1st floor. In the 90s one hall was closed and the "Texas Forever" film was put into the theater that was built in one hall. The other hall had remained as is until recently. I would say 50% of that hall is still free but the other half has a $5 admission charge and most disgusting was the "Bank of America" sponsorship plate at the gate to the 2nd half that is not free.

As it is now $12 buys you access to everything in the building (elevator ride, movie, and 2nd half of exhibit hall #1). This is not a lot of money and the $1 to get into the park is almost nothing but the idea of charging people money and selling AD space in exhange for sponsorship at such a significant and historic place in Texas is outragious and insulting. Toyota Motor Corporation also has advertising on the Texas Parks and Wildlife map of the park they give you at the gate. Houston, Lamar, and Santa Anna did not fight so you could be charged money to see what they did. So long as there is a state of Texas the birthplace of the state should be 100% free for anyone to come and visit.

Is TX Parks and Wildlife really in a lot of financial trouble?

I also noticed that they have quit mowing the lawns that used to be immaculate along the 1836 road on the Mounment side of the park (except at the end where the tunraround near the water is...it is still well kept there). They have put up signs that call the area a nature preserve and to not hunt anything. What a bunch of ***clowns. The service and maintenance was better when it was free. Acres and acres of grass area where people used to come to have a picnic have been lost to brush that has grown about 3 feet high.

Anyway, I was just disgusted by the whole situation out there. God help us if they sell the entire property to Disney or contract it out to someone like Disney who is in the attraction business to run the place and charge $35 or something.

NASA used to be a wonderful place in the old day but has been reduced to a total rip off that is garbage compared to the old and FREE visitor center. You can read more about that here:

http://www.houstonarchitecture.info/haif/i...mp;hl=NASA+buck

[plumber2]

My dad told me that he went out to the San Jacinto Battleground in 1936 for the centinial celebration. There was no monument built at that time, and the USS Texas was still in active service. He said there was a Navy ship (a cruiser I think) on site for the event. He was allowed to crawl all over it as sixteen year old kid. At a certain point during the festivities the ship fired it's guns. The whole ship moved sideways during the blasts. Most of the battleground and park that people saw back then is now underwater, due to subsidence.

[mkultra25]

Is TX Parks and Wildlife really in a lot of financial trouble?

Yes. If I'm not mistaken, they've significantly cut back on visitor hours in some state parks already because they can no longer afford the staff to keep them open full-time, and there's even been speculation that they'll have to close some sites to the public altogether for part of the year for the same reason. State budget cutbacks are at the root of the problems, but you'd think that if any public park in Texas merited increased funding to keep admission costs at bay, it would be San Jacinto Park.

[Original Timmy Chan's]

Is TX Parks and Wildlife really in a lot of financial trouble?

They're selling off donated park lands, so, yeah...they're in trouble.

The State Railroad in Rusk is about to shut down because the state won't fund them the $2 million they need per year.

They keep trying to sell off thousands of acres on the western end of Big Bend Ranch SP to a private owner.

All these "user fees" are intended to help defray maintenance costs...but I doubt the user fees are keeping up with the costs.

[FilioScotia]

They're selling off donated park lands, so, yeah...they're in trouble. All these "user fees" are intended to help defray maintenance costs...but I doubt the user fees are keeping up with the costs.

State parks have been in financial trouble for years, but budget cuts of the past decade have just about killed many of them. That's why places like San Jacinto State Park have to charge admission, but you're right - the fees don't come close to paying the bills. Many parks are crumbling and falling apart due to lack of proper maintenance and upkeep. And yes some of the smaller parks have been sold because almost no one comes to them, and money to maintain them has been non-existent.

This sorry situation might improve now that the legislature has decided to use ALL the money from the state tax on sporting goods on state parks, as was originally intended when the tax was created in the 1990s. That tax brings in about 100 million a year, but the lege has been tapping that fund for "other uses" for years, and leaving only about 30 million for state parks.

This year's session voted to dedicate ALL the funds from the sporting goods tax to state parks, and the TPWD is enjoying an immediate infusion of money for the parks system. Take a look at all the new job postings on TPWD's website. They're hiring -- everywhere.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/business/jobs/

"Acres and acres of grass area where people used to come to have a picnic have been lost to brush that has grown about 3 feet high."

There's a reason for all the high grass. For some years now, the TPWD has been working on a master plan to restore the San Jacinto Battlegrounds to the appearance it had in 1836, as much as is possible. Really. They want it look less like a state park, and more like the important historic site it is. That means fewer park amenities and more emphasis on letting it return to its natural state.

Here's everything there is to know about the Park's Master Plans. http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/spdest/findade...texas/new.phtml

I agree with your complaint about not being able to get into the Johnson Space Center anymore, but it should be remembered that JSC is a major US Government facility, and it became a VERY secure government facility on September 11, 2001.

Even so, long before 9-11, all the space artifacts that used to be on display in the JSC Auditorium had been moved off-site to Space Center Houston. NASA higher-ups didn't like having tourists wandering around all over the place, so they just moved the tourism off the base. If you don't work on-site and have proper ID, or don't have a valid and verifiable reason for being on-site, you're not going to get through the gate.

And that's just the way it is. Welcome to the brave new world of tight security.

Edited October 15, 2007 by FilioScotia

[LarryDallas]

There's a reason for all the high grass. For some years now, the TPWD has been working on a master plan to restore the San Jacinto Battlegrounds to the appearance it had in 1836, as much as is possible. Really. They want it look less like a state park, and more like the important historic site it is. That means fewer park amenities and more emphasis on letting it return to its natural state.

I think that is just another way of saying they have mismanaged themselves and are making excuses to cover their ***. A vast majority of the visitors to that park go there to have a good time in a park instead of as an educational trip. Putting a fee on entry to the museum gallery will discourage people who would have gone just to check it out. It is kind of like the digital divide that started in the 90s. There are people who go out to the park and have to think twice before spending $5.

I think the bottom line is that is it cheaper to ignore the land and let it return to a wild state of condition than maintaining it.

I agree with your complaint about not being able to get into the Johnson Space Center anymore, but it should be remembered that JSC is a major US Government facility, and it became a VERY secure government facility on September 11, 2001.

I agree that security measures would never allow for private cars to drive around in JSC like they used to in the past. However, NASA is a govt. agency funded by the taxpayers. I have a huge problem with a private company like Disney selling us tickets to look at exhibits on projects we funded to begin with. Oh, on top of that the new facility is garbage compared to the old one.

NASA could have built their own building where Space Center Houston sits and moved everything from the old visitor center (less the murals) to the new building. Most importantly it should have stayed 100% free to anyone who wanted to visit. Security wise they can do anything that they want.....put dogs out there to search cars and have people walk through metal detectors to gain entry to even the visitor center. Oh, and the outragious prices also create a divide in who has access to the place. Prior to the early 90s anyone from River Oaks to the worst slum in Houston had the same cost of access to the place...ZERO dollars.

[jwphillips2]

I think all state funding problems would be eliminated for Texas if we just added 10 cents a gallon on all exported refined gasoline to "furiners" in other states. I was going to say "oil production", but I think we'll have to hit $100 a barrel on Texas Tea to have marginal wells producing here again. I think the Longview field is the only one still producing at pressure in Texas (maybe in the US). I think it would be like Louisana in the 50s, one of the richest states in the US at that time. Didn't need a Lotto to fund the schools or roads and where is that money going? I'm seeing a lot of news stories about funding Houston schools' computer and maintenance projects. And, with almost 60 cents on every gallon in state and federal tax, where is that money going?

What used to hack me off about New Jersey (where was the old one?) was that every square milimeter of Asbury Park was metered parking and you couldn't park or drive on the beach. They closed the beach at dusk (no camping) and there was a pretty stiff beach admission. As far I know, the State still owns the access.

The library looked like crap, the police were driving 7 year-old cars, the potholes could swallow an axle at any time, and city services were almost non-existent. Where did all that money go? Maybe we just need to do a better job on fiduciary responsiblities.

[FilioScotia]

I think that is just another way of saying they have mismanaged themselves and are making excuses to cover their ***. I think the bottom line is that is it cheaper to ignore the land and let it return to a wild state of condition than maintaining it. NASA is a govt. agency funded by the taxpayers.

You may be interested to know that the master plan to restore San Jacinto to its original state was developed in the early 90s, long before the budget crunches of recent years. It has nothing to do with money, or lack of it.

Yes, NASA is a government agency funded by taxpayers, but that doesn't and shouldn't mean that taxpayers should be allowed to just walk in off the streets. The JSC and and the Kennedy Space Center in Florida are regarded as prime targets for terrorists precisely because of what they mean to the American people. They must have tight security and restricted access, and we just have to get used to it.

I miss the good old days too, when you could drive onsite and walk around pretty much wherever you wanted to look. It ain't that way anymore.

[LarryDallas]

You may be interested to know that the master plan to restore San Jacinto to its original state was developed in the early 90s, long before the budget crunches of recent years. It has nothing to do with money, or lack of it.

I think it has to do with lazy more than anything. Restoration of the property is one of the most lame brain ideas ever and the person who came up with it should be fired from TX parks and wildlife. The monument and grounds have been a symbol of state pride since inception. The lawns were always maintained to perfection, access was free (minus the elevator), and people went to have a fun daytrip instead of a history lesson. On a related note I would be very interested to see what kind of pay scale increase the executives in this agency had at the time of or whortly thereafter the changes were made.

If the lawns were to be brought back after cutting the brush the cost would be very high since most of the root system has been completely destroyed now.

Yes, NASA is a government agency funded by taxpayers, but that doesn't and shouldn't mean that taxpayers should be allowed to just walk in off the streets. The JSC and and the Kennedy Space Center in Florida are regarded as prime targets for terrorists precisely because of what they mean to the American people. They must have tight security and restricted access, and we just have to get used to it. .

But doesn't that mean the terrorists win and they accomplish their goal of ending the American way of life 100%?

Look, as I said in the earlier post I do not want or expect us to go back to the days of being able to drive around the JSC campus in a private car. The location of Space Center Houston is on the edge of the campus and visitors there do not even get close to the main buildings. Disney has no business doing any business out there and the fact that there is an admission charge of anything is an outrage.

I miss the good old days too, when you could drive onsite and walk around pretty much wherever you wanted to look. It ain't that way anymore.

Agreed 100%

[memebag]

Look, as I said in the earlier post I do not want or expect us to go back to the days of being able to drive around the JSC campus in a private car. The location of Space Center Houston is on the edge of the campus and visitors there do not even get close to the main buildings. Disney has no business doing any business out there and the fact that there is an admission charge of anything is an outrage.

My dad worked at Nasa in the 60s and 70s, so I got to spend some time there while growing up. I even got Bob McCall's autograph while he was working on that mural. In high school, I was in an Explorer troop based at JSC. We got to climb around in the shuttle mock ups and play on the air bearing table, that sort of thing. So I despise Space Center Houston.

But you can still go to the main buildings. The tours from SCH take you to some of the buildings I played in as a kid. You have to stay in the tourist areas, but even that's better than staying at Space Center Houston.

[jwphillips2]

The tram will take you through the Bldg. 9 Shuttle mockup area and various other areas. Bldg. 32 to view the giant vacuum chamber which is the same they filmed in "West World". All of the Building 2 (visitor center) stuff was moved to Space Center Houston and most is on display including a real moon rock you can touch. The Lunar Science Lab, aka The West Mansion transferred their inventory before turning it back to private hands.

Attention: we can preserve it based on the fact that it was the first NASA Lunar Lab!

[memebag]

The tram will take you through the Bldg. 9 Shuttle mockup area and various other areas. Bldg. 32 to view the giant vacuum chamber which is the same they filmed in "West World".

They change the routes sometimes, too. One tour I took went to a building where they were working on the re-entry glider. I think that was right after it was de-funded or something and they hadn't cleaned the place out yet.

[LarryDallas]

Here is exactly where the booths are located now.

They are not really communists but calling them communist or communist sympathizers is a Texas tradition.

[houstonmacbro]

Yes. If I'm not mistaken, they've significantly cut back on visitor hours in some state parks already because they can no longer afford the staff to keep them open full-time, and there's even been speculation that they'll have to close some sites to the public altogether for part of the year for the same reason. State budget cutbacks are at the root of the problems, but you'd think that if any public park in Texas merited increased funding to keep admission costs at bay, it would be San Jacinto Park.

I was down that way last Christmas-time (not Christmas day itself) touring some sites with my partner who had not yet moved here, and it was dreary. There were very few visitors and it seemed like it was dying a slow death.

Combined with the industrial zones all around it was not a pleasant experience.

[Vertigo58]

This morning on NPR they were discussing how the Battleship Texas needs drastic restoration. This is another reason for charging to go in to the area. Will cost millions and the ship's hull is deteriorating even faster than thought. Need $$$

[Disastro]

This morning on NPR they were discussing how the Battleship Texas needs drastic restoration. This is another reason for charging to go in to the area. Will cost millions and the ship's hull is deteriorating even faster than thought. Need $$

A DOLLAR???!!!!

Why those greedy bastards!

I'll never go there again!

[EatSleepMOD]

I was more pissed that I drove all the way down the main entrance road, only to

find it closed off.

I guess they dom't have enough money for a sign on Battleground road

directing visitors to the side entrance.

I noticed the $1 seemed to keep out the riff raff so I will be prepared next time...

I may even get a parking spot on a Sunday for a picnic...and trucks won't be parked

in the grass, which I thought was rude.

My .02

[Mark F. Barnes]

You could always vie for a State Income Tax to support the State Parks and other facilities, that away even the people that don't use the parks would have something to delicate flower about to. National Parks charge fees. We buy the $80 National Parks and Federal Recreational Lands Annual Pass, it helps fund a lot of programs not covered by grants. TPWD has implemented the same type of deal, the actual cost is $60, but it gives you free entry to 113 different State facilities. It's a small price to pay to have something beautiful and clean to take people to visit.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/spdest/parkinfo/passes/parkpass/

Edited December 19, 2007 by Mark F. Barnes

[houstonmacbro]

I was more pissed that I drove all the way down the main entrance road, only to

find it closed off.

I guess they dom't have enough money for a sign on Battleground road

directing visitors to the side entrance.

I noticed the $1 seemed to keep out the riff raff so I will be prepared next time...

I may even get a parking spot on a Sunday for a picnic...and trucks won't be parked

in the grass, which I thought was rude.

My .02

$1 doesn't sound exhorbitant. I mean, the park is certainly better than 2 apple pies at McDonald's.

Now if it was $5 or $10 that might be cause for concern.

[EatSleepMOD]

$1 doesn't sound exhorbitant. I mean, the park is certainly better than 2 apple pies at McDonald's.

Now if it was $5 or $10 that might be cause for concern.

I agree. It is $1 per person though...not per vehicle...so it keeps

out lots of riff raff that were coming in by the van load to smoke dope and skip rope...

ya know what I mean...

[memebag]

I agree. It is $1 per person though...not per vehicle...so it keeps

out lots of riff raff that were coming in by the van load to smoke dope and skip rope...

ya know what I mean...

I have no idea what you mean, but skipping rope while smoking dope is incredibly difficult. I don't know any "riff raff" capable of that, but they get points in my book for gumption and coordination.

[houstonmacbro]

Riff raff always reminds me of the RHPS.

[texianjoe]

Riff raff always reminds me of the RHPS.

Riff Raff was more like....