lockmat Posted September 20, 2007 Share Posted September 20, 2007 That's Post Midtown SquareThanks very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bacchus Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 Midtown has a few fatal flaws that killed it's "plan" of a pedestrian friendly mixed-use area and turned it into what I call "Downtown's drive-thru". Biggest flaw: It sits right in between the CBD and the 59 spur, making it ripe for the 'getting off of work' driving crowd that commutes out to SW/W Houston. This sprung the Spec's warehouse, the pharmacy's, the banks, etc. It also leads to wide streets with high speeds of traffic, an absolute killer for pedestrians. Other flaws:1) Homeless problem/Bum traffic - coming from the Greyhound station and the 'Freedman's Town' area of town, nearby2) Residential base is too young -- All the apartment complexes bring in young people, which is great for bars, Subway, Quizno's, Starbucks, but not so great for higher end anchors that could really hold down a nice mixed use complex3) Price of land -- Too high, given the points above, to stimulate developers to go after something nice. I was very interested in how midtown would develop over time. I gave up on it about a year ago and bought a place near Washington Avenue -- a place that is rapidly turning into something special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sowanome Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 Midtown has a few fatal flaws that killed it's "plan" of a pedestrian friendly mixed-use area and turned it into what I call "Downtown's drive-thru". Biggest flaw: It sits right in between the CBD and the 59 spur, making it ripe for the 'getting off of work' driving crowd that commutes out to SW/W Houston. This sprung the Spec's warehouse, the pharmacy's, the banks, etc. It also leads to wide streets with high speeds of traffic, an absolute killer for pedestrians. Other flaws:1) Homeless problem/Bum traffic - coming from the Greyhound station and the 'Freedman's Town' area of town, nearby2) Residential base is too young -- All the apartment complexes bring in young people, which is great for bars, Subway, Quizno's, Starbucks, but not so great for higher end anchors that could really hold down a nice mixed use complex3) Price of land -- Too high, given the points above, to stimulate developers to go after something nice. I was very interested in how midtown would develop over time. I gave up on it about a year ago and bought a place near Washington Avenue -- a place that is rapidly turning into something special.I agree, I also looked at buying in Midtown and decided to go in another direction (hint : Washington Avenue). I initially underestimated wash. avenue, but "Memorial" will always be here and I think it's a big driver of the land values in the Wash. avenue area. Midtown does not have this luxury and It's too "LARGE" of an area to improve at such a rapid pace. However, when it's complete 5 to 7 years from now I think it will be nice. I also agree that it does not have the number of strong anchors, that it needs to be successful right now. Good Luck to MIDTOWN and best wishes that the bus station will eliminate itself sooner than later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 I agree, I also looked at buying in Midtown and decided to go in another direction (hint : Washington Avenue). I initially underestimated wash. avenue, but "Memorial" will always be here and I think it's a big driver of the land values in the Wash. avenue area. Midtown does not have this luxury and It's too "LARGE" of an area to improve at such a rapid pace. However, when it's complete 5 to 7 years from now I think it will be nice. I also agree that it does not have the number of strong anchors, that it needs to be successful right now. Good Luck to MIDTOWN and best wishes that the bus station will eliminate itself sooner than later.Yeah, Midtown "only" has Hermann Park down the street.BTW, look at a map of the Washington corridor. It is only about 4 times the size of Midtown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeebus Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 Yeah, Midtown "only" has Hermann Park down the street.And that just doesn't seem to be enough - even with a train to take you there and back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swtsig Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 When did they invent the "Midtown" moniker? Old folks in the Third Ward have told me "we never called it Midtown". i dont recall ever hearing "midtown" until about 6 or 7 years ago... at least in reference to that area of town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Marty Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 "Midtown" was invented on December 14th, 1994 when the "Midtown TIRZ" was created.http://www.houstonmidtown.com/midtown.cfm?a=cms,c,16,3 i dont recall ever hearing "midtown" until about 6 or 7 years ago... at least in reference to that area of town. This is your answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdude Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 Midtown has a few fatal flaws that killed it's "plan" of a pedestrian friendly mixed-use area and turned it into what I call "Downtown's drive-thru". Biggest flaw: It sits right in between the CBD and the 59 spur, making it ripe for the 'getting off of work' driving crowd that commutes out to SW/W Houston. This sprung the Spec's warehouse, the pharmacy's, the banks, etc. It also leads to wide streets with high speeds of traffic, an absolute killer for pedestrians. Other flaws:1) Homeless problem/Bum traffic - coming from the Greyhound station and the 'Freedman's Town' area of town, nearby2) Residential base is too young -- All the apartment complexes bring in young people, which is great for bars, Subway, Quizno's, Starbucks, but not so great for higher end anchors that could really hold down a nice mixed use complex3) Price of land -- Too high, given the points above, to stimulate developers to go after something nice. I was very interested in how midtown would develop over time. I gave up on it about a year ago and bought a place near Washington Avenue -- a place that is rapidly turning into something special.You hit the nail on the head. West Midtown streets were designed to optimize traffic flow to downtown. It can't work as an extended pedestrian area, and it discourages construction of single-family houses, as does the large concentration of rental properties. The street grid isn't as much of a problem east of San Jacinto, but on that side there are a large number of social service agencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidtownCoog Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 If Washington Ave. is "special" then Houston truly is a dump! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FilioScotia Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 It's hard to be optomistic about Midtown right now. Does anybody else feel like this area of town is at a standstill?I'm seeing signs of something that's familiar. Does anyone else here remember how fast all those big apartment complexes sprouted up like mushrooms along Glenmont and Gulfton in the 70s and 80s? Developer Michael A. Pollack was one of the best-known leaders in that, rehabbing and running at least one of the huge complexes. His TV marketing was brilliant. He aimed his advertising, with offers of the swinging singles life and free VCRs at the city's growing population of Yuppies who couldn't move in fast enough. Pollack's success attracted other developers who built similar complexes hoping to cash in.Pollack deserves at least some of the credit (blame?) for turning the Glenmont-Gulfton corridor into what I have referred to for years as "apartment city." By 1980, that area was nothing but block after block of huge complexes, each with hundreds of units. The private "clubs" in some of those places were "the" place for after-work happy hour parties and late night carousing and pub-crawling. I was one of many who took part in that contribution to Houston's night life.Then was then and now is now. Today the Glenmont-Gulfton corridor is a virtual ghetto that no non-Hispanic or non-Asian dares venture into alone unless he/she absolutely has to. I have nothing against Hispanics or Asians -- they're fine folks -- it's the street gangs that scare the *&^% out of me. I don't go near that area and I make no apologies for that.I'm seeing the beginnings of the same sort of thing in Midtown. It's already overbuilt with too many high-priced apartments and condos and almost no new single-family dwellings. What will Midtown be 30 years from now?By the way, Pollack is still busy as a real estate developer in Arizona. He's into strip malls now. http://www.pollackinvestments.com/press/index.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VicMan Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 Filio, what would cause the Midtown market to collapse?The reason why Gulfton is "ghetto" is because of two factors:1. Apartments could no longer be designated as "adults only"2. The Texas Oil Bust stopped the flow of young men and women from the Rust BeltThis time we are talking about a concentration of Yuppies (not Yuppies looking for permanent housing, but Yuppies who wish to use Midtown in the long term) and DINKs in Midtown. What would cause yuppies and DINKs to suddenly flee Midtown?Also, I found this map of the Midtown Super Neighborhood from 2000: http://www.houstontx.gov/planning/suprnbhd...use/sn62lu.htmlMidtown seems to be dominated by commercial developments, with several scattered multi-family developments. I am not sure about how many of the single-family developments have been replaced.Gulfton is blatantly dominated by apartment complexes: http://www.houstontx.gov/planning/suprnbhd...use/sn27lu.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FilioScotia Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 Filio, what would cause the Midtown market to collapse? What would cause yuppies and DINKs to suddenly flee Midtown?The same thing that drove the Yuppies and Dinks out of Glenmont-Gulfton. An over supply of units that pushed rents down and started attracting people the Yuppies and Dinks didn't like having as neighbors. I don't pretend to be the great prognosticator of social or economic trends. I'm not. I just remember what happened out on the west side, and I think it's just possible that it could happen again in midtown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VicMan Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 The same thing that drove the Yuppies and Dinks out of Glenmont-Gulfton. An over supply of units that pushed rents down and started attracting people the Yuppies and Dinks didn't like having as neighbors. I don't pretend to be the great prognosticator of social or economic trends. I'm not. I just remember what happened out on the west side, and I think it's just possible that it could happen again in midtown.The big factor affecting the apartments was the Texas Oil Bust.http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3599702.html" "Looking around Gulfton, looking around Fondren Southwest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 Mgmt of the apartments is important as well. One company may have more stringent standards of renting and maintenance of the properties while another has lower standards. i believe the AMLI has already changed ownership once. If residents notice a decline in something, this usually causes them to look elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VicMan Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 As of 2007, AMLI (the company) does not own any complexes in the Midtown District - It has one in the 4th Ward (at 2210 West Dallas): http://www.amli.com/Community/RegionMap.as...gionTag=houstonAll of its Houston properties seem to be in upcoming or stable areas (Washington Avenue, 4th Ward, Medical Center, Eldridge Parkway) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 As of 2007, AMLI (the company) does not own any complexes in the Midtown District -concur, they sold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VicMan Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 concur, they sold.Yep...http://www.amli.com/Community/CommunityNot...n&ACH=False"AMLI Midtown. DIVESTEDAMLI Midtown is no longer part of the AMLI family. Please click here to see other AMLI Communities in the Houston area or www.amli.com to start over at out home page.Thank you."The complex is at 2350 Bagby. The land was counted as a multi-family in 2000: http://www.houstontx.gov/planning/suprnbhd...use/sn62lu.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barracuda Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 I don't think Gulfton is a valid comparison to Midtown. Developers in Gulfton built mostly high-density apartments, whereas Midtown is mostly townhomes that start at least around $200k. The large complexes, like Post and the Edge, are mixed-use and/or high-end, so I would expect them to retain high resale/rent prices. Midtown is also perfectly situated between the two biggest income generators in the city -- downtown and the medical center. Gulfton, by contrast, was built far away from the core of the city, making it a less desirable place to stay long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VicMan Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 I used an apartment search. The AMLI is now known as the Metro Midtown.From https://my.apartmentsearch.com/db/app.pl?co...pp&db=myss2The price range: $1050-$2061*1 Bedroom = 1 Bathroom = Price Range $1,050 - 1,325 = 692 - 959 square feet*2 Bedroom = 2 Bathrooms = Price Range $1,551 - 1,656 = 1122 square feet*3 Bedroom = 2 Bathrooms = Price Range $1,921 - 2,061 = 1378 square feet419-unit complex was built in 1998. Cats and dogs are allowed at the complex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Displaced Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 HCAD Lists 4 accounts at 2350 Bagby. The one that covers the development is still in AMLI's name. The others aren't, but are:METRO MIDTOWN PRTNRSHP%AMLI RESIDENTIAL PROP TR 308 E LANCASTER AVE STE 300 WYNNEWOOD PA 19096-2145I assume there's some separation of development and rent-collection arms for whatever legit or nefarious tax and legal exposure reasons such handoffs are executed (q.v., e.g., today's NYTimes article on trying to sue an investor-owned nursing home). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdude Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 The big factor affecting the apartments was the Texas Oil Bust.http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3599702.html" "Looking around Gulfton, looking around Fondren Southwest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veracity Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 Ouch - AMLI is gone??!? I thought they were making hand over fist there because they have a pretty neat setup there.I'm one of those renters that doesn't plan on staying in Midtown (let alone Houston) after 1.5 more years... I can tell you that the neighborhood centered around Specs has improved dramatically in many ways. Camden Midtown has gotten rid of those benchs around the complex which were just a haven for drunks and homeless. I never once saw a resident sitting on one of those benches to catch a view of the nasty traffic on Milam or Louisiana St. We had a lot of crime about 1.5 years ago (apartment breakins, car breakins, etc.) I think those have reduced...With every business open, the sidewalks have improved (less homeless). However, unless your life revolves around not getting a DUI because yu like to go out and party, I think Midtown is way overrated. But inside the loop living has gotten expensive in general. Apartments in the Med Center have gotten expensive as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lockmat Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 2) Residential base is too young -- All the apartment complexes bring in young people, which is great for bars, Subway, Quizno's, Starbucks, but not so great for higher end anchors that could really hold down a nice mixed use complexThis assumes young people don't spend money on things not related to drinking or eating. It also assumes these young people don't make much money. True they probably don't make as much as people in their fields who are much older, but these kids still make pretty decent dough. It's not like those apartments have cheap rent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VicMan Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 I wouldn't say that Midtown is necessairly doomed, but this shows that we have to tread carefully in terms of its development.Perhaps the high prices could be a blessing in disguise, as this prevents building more apartment complexes...What we need to do is to keep the homeless and beggars under control and to try to introduce more retail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jax Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 I think as long as Downtown and the TMC succeed in the long term, then Midtown won't decline like Gulfton did. It's just too convenient and close to everything.It seems that the decline of Gulfton was related to the fact that it's just so far away from everything, as well as the fact that it has so many apartments and not much else. Midtown is neither far from the most important parts of the city or residential only. I agree that all of the social services don't help things much in Midtown, and that it may not become an urban paradise, but I don't think you can compare it to a place like Gulfton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricco67 Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 but the question should be on WHAT we want Midtown to be.What proportion of Businesses, retail (including clubs, restaurants, dry cleaning, etc), and residential would be appropriate?I have a feeling that we might see one more apartment complex going up, after that we have the firefighters Museum going up (no info on that, btw), but I see few mid rises (or higher) being built. If the price of land keeps climbing or stabilizes at their current level, you won't see a boom of townhome spread across the landscape. If anything, this might be more conducive to buildings being built taller to make it cost effective to be there. It's only after almost every block is occupied that a major building boom (height wise) will increase and then the townhomes might be purchased when other developers would want that land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedScare Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 Speaking of new neighborhood names like "Midtown," isn't "Freedman's Town" also of new vintage? I never remember hearing it called anything but the Fourth Ward until maybe 10 years ago.If you consider the 1860s "new vintage, then yes.http://www.houstonprogressive.org/FTAbrief.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VicMan Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 I also found the demographics of the Midtown Super Neighborhood (this probably does not include homeless): http://www.houstontx.gov/planning/suprnbhd.../62_midtown.htmThe Super Neighborhood mostly corresponds to the Midtown district. A small bit of the district south of U.S. Route 59 is not counted in this.5,311 People total lived in the Midtown Super Neighborhood.Of all residents:* 2,439 were non-Hispanic White (46%)* 1,490 were Hispanic (28%)* 949 were African-American (18%)* 320 were Asian (13%)* 70 were of two or more races (non-Hispanic) (1%)* 35 were non-Hispanic other (rounds to 1%)* 8 were Native American (less than 1%)Of residents 18 and older (4,559):* 2,333 were non-Hispanic White (51%)* 1,077 were Hispanic (24%)* 804 were African-American (18%)* 252 were Asian (6%)* 59 were of two or more races (non-Hispanic) (1%)* 27 were non-Hispanic other (rounds to 1%)* 7 were Native American (less than 1%)Of residents less than 18 (752):* 413 were Hispanic (55%)* 145 were African-American (19%)* 106 were non-Hispanic White (14%)* 68 were Asian (9%)* 11 were of two or more races (non-Hispanic) (1%)* 8 were non-Hispanic other (1%)* 1 was Native American (less than 1%) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicman Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 This assumes young people don't spend money on things not related to drinking or eating. It also assumes these young people don't make much money. True they probably don't make as much as people in their fields who are much older, but these kids still make pretty decent dough. It's not like those apartments have cheap rent.i don't think bacchus is too far off mark. in midtown the many of the new businesses are all about eating or drinking. we went to damian's a couple of weeks ago and the clientele there sure wasn't the typical midtown crowd, at least that night. definitely was older than typical midtown places. IMO same as always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FilioScotia Posted September 24, 2007 Share Posted September 24, 2007 "Midtown" was invented on December 14th, 1994 when the "Midtown TIRZ" was created.No it wasn't. The people who formed the Midtown TIRZ just appropriated the name the area has been called for a long time. I've heard that area referred to as "midtown" since the 60s. Originally, the area was south of downtown, with almost nothing to the south. It had no name of its own.Then came the growth of the Medical Center in the 60s, and all of a sudden the area south of Pierce and north of Hermann Park was "between" two distinct areas of town. Sometime in the 60s the nickname "midtown" came into use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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