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War Zone On FM 1960?


musicman

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Again. Prove that the busses caused it. I'll even give you a starting point. The Mac-10 Fest in the FM 1960 parking lot occurred on a Friday night at 3:00 am. METRO's 86 Crosstown stops running at 11:30 pm. How did those hundreds of people get there if METRO stopped running 3 hours earlier? And, how did they manage to clear out before the cops got there?

I've seen some of the "intuition" on this board, and it is hideous. Some on this board could not intuit their way out of a wet paper bag. I recall YOUR intuition in a Heights thread a few weeks back. You weren't even close.

Now, is anyone going to find that busses bring crime study, or am I going to have to rely on some of the brilliant intuition displayed on this board?

Note: I am not disputing that 1960 has seen its share of problems increase in the last 20 years. That video does not lie. I am specifically asking some of the rocket scientists here to show me where METRO caused it, as has been alleged. Because, frankly, all of these thugs in the video appear to have rides.

I could do some research, find the crime statistics, make some graphs, and report comparisons of crime before and after the introduction of the Metro route, and comparisons of crime during running hours and during non-running hours, but I'm just not that interested enough at the moment. To be honest, I don't believe there is any relationship between the Metro Bus introduction and crime increases in the area. At most, the bus route is a symptom of the urbanization of that area, which has undoubtedly led to more crime. (In the 70s and 80s, this was essentially a bedroom community, insulated from the grittiness of Houston, and the apartment boom had not yet materialized.) It is possible to say that the bus route was directly responsible for a specific incident of crime. Let's say a man from Acres Homes takes the 44 bus to the Willowbrook area. After getting off at a stop somewhere around 249, he walks around and eventually winds up in someone's front yard and decides to break into the house. Unless the person had an agenda, the crime would not have occurred, since they would likely not be in the area were there not a bus route to get them there. Still, this does not mean that the bus route is responsible for INCREASES in crime overall. My own intuition tells me that many crimes in the area, since the area began to decline, have been committed without the assistance of the Metro bus route.

While intuition is a legitimate grounds for a perspective or an opinion, it really has no way of helping to prove something. Intuitive perspectives are best used in affirmative-type discussions in which you are talking to someone who shares your intuition about something, and by discussing it with someone else, it helps to clarify and affirm your perspective, either strengthening your intuition or exposing it as a false feeling.

By the way, I corrected my mistakes in that Heights thread. Go back and read my replies.

Edited by PureAuteur
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BTW, I think the other issue at play here is the fact that you've got Harris County Sheriff's complaining that they don't have 'resources' to police that area like it should, despite the fact that much of the county budget is derived from areas nearby. Further, with the City of Houston performing "limited" annexations along FM 1960 where they split the tax revenue with the local MUDs, yet don't any provide police, fire and EMS doesn't help things.

http://www.houstontx.gov/planning/Developm...s/2006_MTFP.pdf

Houston ETJ w/Limited Annexations

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I was at F. M. 1960 to go to the Container Store to get a special board... Greenwood Forest looked like a Memorial in the northside.

Which stretch of F. M. 1960 is having the crime issues?

Also, I see this as an inevitable decline. Suburbs age, folks.

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BTW, I think the other issue at play here is the fact that you've got Harris County Sheriff's complaining that they don't have 'resources' to police that area like it should, despite the fact that much of the county budget is derived from areas nearby. Further, with the City of Houston performing "limited" annexations along FM 1960 where they split the tax revenue with the local MUDs, yet don't any provide police, fire and EMS doesn't help things.

i think both entities are in denial as well because the area isn't as vocal as other areas. hopefully the story will shed some light on the problem. the annexations by houston have really hurt many areas.

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Criminals may not use Metro to get them to the crime scene but perception is sometimes as important as reality. The fact that a lot of people think that Metro bus lines increase crime causes them to avoid areas that have a lot of bustops. When I'm shopping for a house the first thing I want is to be as far away from an apartment complex as possbile, but the second thing I want to be away from is a bus stop. I'm sure there are a lot of people that think the same way. This can cause homes sales near bus stops and apt. complexes to slow and prices to drop which leads to more crime.

I now avoid Westheimer at all costs because of all the bums and drug addicts at the bus stops staring at me. There are good people who ride the bus too and I feel sorry for them having to sit next to the criminals. I had a friend over from Europe a few months back. He was appalled at the people hanging around the bus stops. I was embarrassed for our city. I made sure not to take him down Westheimer again. My wife will no longer drive our convertible with the top down... too many bums standing right next to the car staring at us from bus stops. We're going to sell it and probably won't get a convertible again.

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I was at F. M. 1960 to go to the Container Store to get a special board... Greenwood Forest looked like a Memorial in the northside.

Which stretch of F. M. 1960 is having the crime issues?

Yes it is very nice over there in Champions. Greenwood Forest was built by the same people who built many of the Memorial area neighborhoods. They're building million dollar homes in Champions and around Champion Forest as we speak, the whole area is just about built out, but what is going in is mostly $500K and above in Lakes of Sterling Gate, Falls at Champion Forest, Champion Forest, Champions (on the golf course), etc. If that's decline...well, then....give me more.

The area of FM 1960 that is having the most issues is a few miles North around I-45 and FM 1960. It is a far cry from crimes occuring in other parts of town, but certainly enough to stir the natives (as it should). Hopefully with the new initiatives for FM 1960, they'll be able to get a hold of it before it becomes more of a problem.

Edited by mrfootball
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Yes it is very nice over there in Champions. Greenwood Forest was built by the same people who built many of the Memorial area neighborhoods. They're building million dollar homes in Champions and around Champion Forest as we speak, the whole area is just about built out, but what is going in is mostly $500K and above in Lakes of Sterling Gate, Falls at Champion Forest, Champion Forest, Champions (on the golf course), etc. If that's decline...well, then....give me more.

The area of FM 1960 that is having the most issues is a few miles North around I-45 and FM 1960. It is a far cry from crimes occuring in other parts of town, but certainly enough to stir the natives (as it should). Hopefully with the new initiatives for FM 1960, they'll be able to get a hold of it before it becomes more of a problem.

Doesn't 1960 have an actual name? I know SH6 is technically Addicks-Satsuma Rd. I'm thinking a new name would be good for the area.

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Doesn't 1960 have an actual name? I know SH6 is technically Addicks-Satsuma Rd. I'm thinking a new name would be good for the area.

FM1960 apparently is (AKA) Jackrabbit Rd.

THis name would certainly fit what I saw in that video from last Saturday night. That is what everyone looked like, scared Jackrabbits, runnin for the hills, or the nearest METRO bus ?

Edited by TJones
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FM1960 apparently is (AKA) Jackrabbit Rd.

THis name would certainly fit what I saw in that video from last Saturday night. That is what everyone looked like, scared Jackrabbits, runnin for the hills, or the nearest METRO bus ?

Edited by Vertigo58
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Bus routes expanding in a neighborhood are a sign of that neighborhood's change, not the cause of it.

In a fantasy world where transit systems had tons of money to expand their tentacles into areas where the service isn't needed -- that's where the "buses bring crime" fear would make sense.

But the fact is that most transit systems, Metro included, are only given enough money to run in the areas with the highest demand. If there's no demand, there's no buses. It's very easy to audit the number of people who get on a bus (and to a lesser extent getting off) to determine if buses are needed in a particular area.

Blaming buses for bringing crime is just lashing out at an obvious symbol of urbanization. The problem is not the buses, it's the crime that is already there.

The problem is that we're all looking for a single "right" answer. There isn't one. I've seen multiple right answers in this thread that when combined do a fair job of explaining the changes in 1960.

Fact: Before there were cars, there was virtually no crime in that area at all. Maybe everyone should get rid of their cars and it would be a utopian paradise? Maybe not.

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I have to agree. Very NICE neighborhood. :)

I was at F. M. 1960 to go to the Container Store to get a special board... Greenwood Forest looked like a Memorial in the northside.

Which stretch of F. M. 1960 is having the crime issues?

Also, I see this as an inevitable decline. Suburbs age, folks.

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road access to older, neighborhoods in Houston has made 1960 to what it is now

for example...veterans memorial runs from I-45 in Acres Home all the way to 1960..so if I lived out there, I can take a bus to work and maybe even move out there now as the bus gives me a reason to live far away. But if you observe Veterans past the Beltwat towards 1960, there are alot of starter homes that were built years ago which is pretty easy to get into...eventually, those folks in those homes move out and someone else moves in...

With a straight shot from Greenspoint and affordable housing in the area, the area was set up to change demographically. As you can see, the Champions area was built and managed well over the years and it hasn't changed but cheap investment property on that end of 1960 by probably some of the same folks who live in Champions have made a turn for the worse.

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With a straight shot from Greenspoint and affordable housing in the area, the area was set up to change demographically. As you can see, the Champions area was built and managed well over the years and it hasn't changed but cheap investment property on that end of 1960 by probably some of the same folks who live in Champions have made a turn for the worse.

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner.

The bus route is symptomatic of some aging and poorly managed apartments; the greater threat and one that is for some reason off the radar to most people north of 1960 is that there has been explosive growth just opposite the highway from them of a sort that would be analogous to Sunnyside just after WW2. Cheap housing for the lower-middle class becomes crappy shacks for po' folks in a short period of time. ...but hey, in 50 or 60 years, your neck of the woods will be putting out world-class rappers (or the equivalent).

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Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner.

The bus route is symptomatic of some aging and poorly managed apartments; the greater threat and one that is for some reason off the radar to most people north of 1960 is that there has been explosive growth just opposite the highway from them of a sort that would be analogous to Sunnyside just after WW2. Cheap housing for the lower-middle class becomes crappy shacks for po' folks in a short period of time. ...but hey, in 50 or 60 years, your neck of the woods will be putting out world-class rappers (or the equivalent).

If you are talking about east of I 45 then you are correct it's starting to look like Greenspoint more and more everyday.

Edited by Marty
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If you are talking about east of I 45 then you are correct it's starting to look like Greenspoint more and more everyday.

That area too. I drove through a neighborhood in that area just on the north side of a large industrial park that had converted a lot of land to a new trailer park. ...it's been a long time since I've seen a new trailer park.

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RE: East of I-45

That's not in the 'GNW', I've always considered that area more or less the 'Greenspoint' area, part of Aldine ISD, which is nice segway to bring us back to the original topic. That area is right next to where this incident occured. And it has never been a very nice area.

While that (Aldine/Greenspoint) area is rough, it pales in comparison the real 'war zone' in SW Houston. In the time we've been talking about this incident, several people have been gunned down, raped and murdered in SW Houston.

Edited by mrfootball
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Criminals may not use Metro to get them to the crime scene but perception is sometimes as important as reality. The fact that a lot of people think that Metro bus lines increase crime causes them to avoid areas that have a lot of bustops. When I'm shopping for a house the first thing I want is to be as far away from an apartment complex as possbile, but the second thing I want to be away from is a bus stop. I'm sure there are a lot of people that think the same way. This can cause homes sales near bus stops and apt. complexes to slow and prices to drop which leads to more crime.

I now avoid Westheimer at all costs because of all the bums and drug addicts at the bus stops staring at me. There are good people who ride the bus too and I feel sorry for them having to sit next to the criminals. I had a friend over from Europe a few months back. He was appalled at the people hanging around the bus stops. I was embarrassed for our city. I made sure not to take him down Westheimer again. My wife will no longer drive our convertible with the top down... too many bums standing right next to the car staring at us from bus stops. We're going to sell it and probably won't get a convertible again.

Your loss. I was driving down Westheimer around Fondren last weekend, and I saw the types you're talking about, but to give up on a cool car because the premiere road in our city is going downhill is probably overreacting. I did instinctively lock my doors when I got to the light at Fondren though. Westheimer, for the most part, is still very safe. It is the westside afterall, and bordered by the Memorial and Briar Forest neighborhoods to the north, but that intersection at Fondren is like the gateway to the SW side, and it gives you just a little taste of the jungle as you drive past.

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Criminals may not use Metro to get them to the crime scene but perception is sometimes as important as reality. The fact that a lot of people think that Metro bus lines increase crime causes them to avoid areas that have a lot of bustops. When I'm shopping for a house the first thing I want is to be as far away from an apartment complex as possbile, but the second thing I want to be away from is a bus stop. I'm sure there are a lot of people that think the same way. This can cause homes sales near bus stops and apt. complexes to slow and prices to drop which leads to more crime.

I now avoid Westheimer at all costs because of all the bums and drug addicts at the bus stops staring at me. There are good people who ride the bus too and I feel sorry for them having to sit next to the criminals. I had a friend over from Europe a few months back. He was appalled at the people hanging around the bus stops. I was embarrassed for our city. I made sure not to take him down Westheimer again. My wife will no longer drive our convertible with the top down... too many bums standing right next to the car staring at us from bus stops. We're going to sell it and probably won't get a convertible again.

There are some exceptions to what you're saying about home sales near bus stops and apartment complexes. I just got an apartment in the Willowbrook Mall area right by Methodist Hospital. There are at least 10 apartment complexes within a 2 mile radius, (which is no big deal, since it's Willowbrook and a major employment hub), but there are also 2 bus routes, the 86 and the 44, which run right by my complex and the bus stop is literally 30 yards from my glass sliding door, but I am really not worried at all, because I know the area is nice, and if anything is INCREASING in value because of the solid demographics and people moving in wanting to get away from other parts of town.

The fact that there are luxury townhomes being built, going for 240k, that are surrounded by mid-priced apartments and a few feet away from several bus stops on the Metro route, would go against your assertion. I know Willowbrook has more of a police presence (HPD and Harris County Sheriffs) than say, Ponderosa Forest and Westador, which have bus stops near their entrances, but the fact that townhomes are going for 240k while surrounded by apartments and several bus routes on all sides, should tell you something about the real effect of the bus routes and perceptions of crime.

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I lived behind Willowbrook Mall but the bus route was a long walk away and the apartments were secluded so there wasn't much of a presence...but the apartments behind Fiesta was a different story as folks took advantage of the bus route and lived out there.

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  • 1 month later...

I imagine everyone has seen and or heard of recent crackdowns or sting ops in this same area. The number of DUI's was staggering. It has always been notorius for the numerous bars/clubs so the DUI's are nothing new. It could take years before there is any real visible change in crime. The area is just too over crowded now.

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  • The title was changed to War Zone On FM 1960?

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