Grand Parkway Expansion

[pineda]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spring residents fail to block Grand Parkway

By BILL MURPHY, Houston Chronicle

Despite pleas from a group of Spring residents who oppose the road, Commissioners Court gave the Harris County Toll Road Authority permission today to spend $5.6 million to plot out a 52-mile section of the Grand Parkway in north Houston.

The county has yet to commit to building the section of the Grand Parkway, a 182-mile super loop around Houston that has been planned for decades. The Texas Department of Transportation will make final decisions on expansion of the Grand Parkway, and the county would need TxDot's approval before it could build the section.

The Spring residents say one proposed route for the toll road would divide subdivisions in their town, cut across a high school baseball field and provide no relief to congestion on local roads.

"The more I know, the less I like," said Connie O'Donnell, a member of United to Save Our Spring. "I think it is and always has been a developer's dream of a highway."

Commissioner Jerry Eversole, whose Precinct 4 includes Spring and most of the other areas where the section would be built, said the road is needed to provide solutions to the area's current and future traffic needs.

"It still goes back to I think it's the right thing to do. It has nothing to do with selling homes or building shopping centers," Eversole said. "The solution will be to build the road, to take the consequences and, if it means my defeat, then it means my defeat."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(In other words, to hell with what my constituents want, I'll do as I damn well please, and they'll just have to learn to live with what I've done to them!)

HoustonChronicle.com -- http://www.HoustonChronicle.com | Section: Front page

This article is: http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/3008546

[adagio]

Let's see... if I look at the map posted on the United to Save Our Spring website. The proposed route for Segment f-2 of the Grand Parkway would go through Hildebrandt Intermediate and possibly Klein Oak High School. It would be in front of Northampton Elementary School then continue through the middle of Northampton subdivision. Am I reading this map correctly. If so, is there anyone at the Commissioner's Court thinking clearly?

[westender]

Yes, Sooner or later. But... we can speed up growth in West Houston, and that would place Houston a couple years ahead. Also, will there be another good opportunity to atleast get this laid down, look at FM 1960 (HWY 6) that is what happens when you wait to long, and the Spring area residents get in the way of highway construction. Notice that no other area is protesting this...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think any other area is protesting it because no other area is going to get mowed over by this thing. The completed sections of the freeway extend from 59 to a mile past I10. When they started building this section it went through nothing but farmland. Drive down this stretch now and you see nothing but subdivision developments. If it continus past I10, it will still go through nothing but farmland until you get to the Cypress area. Then you will have to mow down homes and split communites.

I look at it this way: Sure it sounds great, no feeder roads and few exits, but for how long. Like the current stretch, once the road is there come the people. The people notice the freeway and try to use it. Few entrances and exits, more cars trying to get to those exists and entrances. More cars less access, more frustrated people. More frustrated people, more complaints to officials over why not enough exits. More complaints to officials, a new plan to widen the Grand Parkway and add more entrances and exits and while we'e at it we'll throw in a feeder road or two.... so i can earn more and do more coke.

The best way to deal with a junkie is to lock them in a room so withdrawal can set in. I say we lock in the county commisioners in one of the MetroRail trains.

[tw2ntyse7en]

...

[pineda]

"The solution will be to build the road, to take the CONSEQUENCES and, if it means my defeat, then it means my defeat."

Jerry Eversole

Oh, don't we all wish it would be that EASY to get rid of you, Jerry!

[westguy]

I have no pity for those who buy their homes based on the placement of a nonexistant road. It's no secret that home developers build along roads that can't handle the needed capacity because they know that later the rest of us will have to pay through the nose to fix things or watch these places turn into slums.

[Sooner&RiceGrad]

That's not true. The nation's best small city, according to Universal Publications, is a city that is comprised of rolling hills, some neighborhoods, and nothing but 2 lane roads leading to where these people work.

[pineda]

The nation's best small city, according to Universal Publications, is a city that is comprised of rolling hills, some neighborhoods, and nothing but 2 lane roads leading to where these people work.

I'm sorry, Sooner, but did you mean to say "Universal STUDIOS"? JK......

[adagio]

Pineda - I have looked at the map on the United to Save our Spring again and believe I was reading property lines for roads. Is there another map out there that show how this particular alignment will continue going eastward? Were the maps shown at the meeting today updated or the same old material used for public hearing for F-2?

[pineda]

Actually, there were no maps shown or used before the vote was taken and approved for $6 MILLION DOLLARS. This map that you are now referring to seems to be without an author. Art Storey, Mike Strech, Jerry Eversole all clammed up when asked who came up with the map. The Grand Parkway Association claims to have never seen it, even though their symbols were clearly on it. So, we don't know who came up with it. But, since it was a recent aerial and very well-done, I'm guessing the guy who WASN'T in attendance today and has been enjoying some private meetings with developers in this area (that would be Senator Jon Lindsay) is the co-author of the map. As to where it extends eastward, since no one will even claim knowledge of the map, even with HCTRA, GPA and TxDOT symbols on it, who knows? Maybe we'll find out more at the TxDOT meeting to be held this Thursday in Houston near the Galleria.

[Sooner&RiceGrad]

I really hope this goes through... *fingers crossed for Houston*

[tw2ntyse7en]

...

[GovernorAggie]

I don't think the people of Spring are against the Grand Parkway altogether, they just disagree with the current alignment options. I've seen suggestions to push the road further north into Montgomery County.

Pineda, I think you misunderstood my comments regarding Alvin. My point was that people in Spring can't be expected to be as zealous about the southern part of GP through Alvin, just as people in Alvin or anywhere else can be expected to be so exciting about opposing "just" segment F-2. I know Alvin has its own website and coalition standing against GP.

Speaking of that site, Alvin's people are against building GP for reasons e.g. traffic, pollution, crime, and ending their 'rural' lifestyle. But they would rather the money be spent on widening current roads? You get the same problems in either case. One four lane tollroad or 12 roads crisscrossing your area that are 4-6 lanes wide--either way there will be pluses and minuses.

[tw2ntyse7en]

...

[kjb434]

My company manages and assiste developers in MUD 368 just east of SH 249 along Tomball road. A 5 level stack is planned between the grand parkway and SH 249 in this area. The aligment is known through the MUD currently and we are designing the developments around there to accompany the proposed parkway. One ramp will pass over a church parking lot at 249. The alignment will parrallel just south of Boudreaux Road in this area.

Developers that have good relations with TxDOT, GPA, the City of Houston, and Harris County know where the primary location of the parkway will be placed. It is the responsibility of the engineer working with the developer to prevent issues like a proposed freeway that will destroy the development. Typicall a developer will not buy land that is under consideration for a freeway. Some will on purpose to force the government to pay more for the land.

In the spring area, the parkway will not bypass and go to the Woodlands. The bridge for the parkway is currently being built over Spring Creek by Riley Fuzzel Road. This bridge is being design to accomadate the parkway in the future. The bridge is being built as a flood and traffic improvement project along Riley Fuzzel Road across Spring Creek. But this was to get the money to construct the bridge early and go through the lengthy proccess of getting approval by the Army Corps of Engineers for crossing a major stream.

Also, the Grand Parkway in Chambers county south of I-10 to FM 53 is currently under construction. The freeway in this area is meant to pull truck traffic out of residential areas. A new industrial development of warehouses, port facilities, evironmental servicing firms are moving in as part of a planne port expansion to the Chambers County side of Baytown. This leg of the Grand Parkway will be a great benifit to the area.

[GovernorAggie]

This advice may be unwanted, but here goes anyway--

I think the people who don't want the Grand Parkway, e.g. those in Spring and Alvin, whould have their organized groups focus on a list of priorities based on their goals and objectives. For example, 1st priority is no construction of the GP altogether. 2nd priority is to get all the mitigation you can if they decide to build it anyway, such as neighborhood sensitive treatments to the GP (decorations, planings, pedestrian and bike crossings, easements), maybe even try to convince them to make it below grade. A 3rd priority (and actually should go on during the entire protest) is how to maintain (what's left of) your neighborhood after the GP comes through there. I think strong neighborhood advocacy groups that really look out for the interests of the neighborhood and its well-being would prove vital to the upkeep of the area.

I'm sure most of these people own property and homes in these areas, so there is emotional attachment--otherwise they wouldn't fight so passionately.

My point is that if it looks like the GP will be built, don't give up on your neighborhood. You might have to fight a little bit more for it, but it's your home. GP might be a giant sour lemon to you, but hopefully some lemonade can still be made from it.

[kjb434]

I aggree completely with you GovernorAggie.

I really get aggrevated when neighborhood groups will protest something that is inevitable. If the groups would be prepared to work with the agencies, they can get more what they want in a good compromise. The village of Spring Valley had initial complaints of the Katy Freeway expansion in their area, but they worked with TxDOT to achieve a common goal. A few people protested that they wanted no widening of freeway. That goal is obviously impossible to achieve, but understanding the project, they can work issues out.

The Grand Parkway is the same way. The concept of this facility has been on the metropolitan planning commission's Major Thoroughfare and Freeway Plan for years. The construction was inevitable. If residents and business would attempt to understand the project, the reasons for it being built, and who is planning it, they can work with them and get a good solution.

Residents in Fort Bend and Western Harris County have been approaching it this way.

Portions of the unbuilt GP in southern Fort Bend County will pass through environmentally sensitive area. The residents and supporters of the wetland areas have been suggesting alternative alignments and path that don't completely bypass the sensitive portions of land, but instead just minimize the impacts. Don't get me wrong, they did propose a complete bypass option, but the cost and effectiveness of the new roadway would not justify the alignment.

The same issues are being addressed in western Chambers County.

Just wait until Montgomery and Harris County decide to extend the Hardy Toll Road to just south of Conroe. It's already in the planning phases. Developers that have already build in the path of the proposed road have alread taken into account the alignments and have left room for the road.

[MaxConcrete]

kjb434, you seem to be well plugged-in to the developments on the Grand Parkway.

Perhaps you could elaborate on a couple items you mentioned and a few questions I have.

1. Are the contracts awarded this week mainly for engineering or is it a total restudy of the alignment? In other words, can we expect major alignment changes, or will they take the existing recommended alignment and just tweak it where necessary?

2. Will the corridor still be 400 feet wide if Harris County builds it (rather than TxDOT)?

3. Do you know if there is any plan to give the corridor true parkway characteristics? By that I mean not clear-cutting the corridor but instead leaving a wooded median, similar to I-45 north of Conroe? It seems to me that would make the highway much more acceptable to local neighborhoods.

4. In terms of the stack at SH 249 and SH 99, is that a long-term plan or can we expect to see some or all of the ramps built in the initial construction phase?

5. For the Chambers County section currently under construction, do you know if Ric Williamson and his henchmen on the commission are going to force that section to be tolled? It would seem absurd to me to toll it, since it would attract neglible toll-paying traffic and could possibly kill off development in the industrial areas nearby. www.fireRicWilliamson.com

Thanks.

[westguy]

The Katy Freeway widening caused a major spike in property taxes for Spring Valley residents because of the loss of their most valuable properties. They didn't get a compromise, so much as they got steamrolled.

The Grand Parkway project hardly seemed inevitable until it was added to the maps recently by those with lots of land to sell in the West. It was nothing but a crude plot to direct the region's fortunes into their own personal pockets.

I've never seen any evidence that this excessive sprawl is healthy for the community, btw. Cities that enact urban growth boundaries around their perimeters, such as Portland and those in New England, enjoy communities that are many times healthier than the city of Houston. Ones that have let sprawl take over (Los Angeles, Detroit) seem to be decaying from the inside out.

[pineda]

I'm not really familiar with any of the current specs for the layout of the "F-2" (?) segment for the Grand Parkway. From what I've gathered on here is that its going to cut through neighborhoods (existing or planned?) and schools.

What is the "Save our Spring" organization counter-proposing in lieu of the current layout? Is there a safe alternate layout for the GP up there or is it all already too developed and somethings just going to have to give?

27, Please visit our website at:

United to Save Our Spring

[pineda]

But they would rather the money be spent on widening current roads? You get the same problems in either case. One four lane tollroad or 12 roads crisscrossing your area that are 4-6 lanes wide--either way there will be pluses and minuses.

The money is already being spent widening the current roads. And, there is a big difference between widening the current roads and putting in a 1200-1500' wide new path or river of concrete through a semi-rural area.

Please visit our website at:

United to Save Our Spring

[pineda]

There are certain elements that don't want it to go all the way into Montgomery county

This would the Woodlands Development Corporation.

Please visit our website at:

United to Save Our Spring

[pineda]

Developers that have good relations with TxDOT, GPA, the City of Houston, and Harris County know where the primary location of the parkway will be placed.

At the meeting held recently in the offices of Jones & Carter in the Woodlands, several developers in the Spring area were invited to attend by Senator Jon Lindsay. None of them knew where the road was going, neither did Lindsay.

In the spring area, the parkway will not bypass and go to the Woodlands.

In the Spring area, no one yet knows where it will go.

Please visit our website at:

United to Save Our Spring

[pineda]

For example, 1st priority is no construction of the GP altogether. 2nd priority is to get all the mitigation you can if they decide to build it anyway, such as neighborhood sensitive treatments to the GP (decorations, planings, pedestrian and bike crossings, easements), maybe even try to convince them to make it below grade. A 3rd priority (and actually should go on during the entire protest) is how to maintain (what's left of) your neighborhood after the GP comes through there. I think strong neighborhood advocacy groups that really look out for the interests of the neighborhood and its well-being would prove vital to the upkeep of the area.

We've done all this and we've done it for five years now.

Please visit our website at:

United to Save Our Spring

[pineda]

I really get aggrevated when neighborhood groups will protest something that is inevitable. If the groups would be prepared to work with the agencies, they can get more what they want in a good compromise.

Sorry if we aggravate you, we get that a lot from engineers, too. We have been working with all the agencies involved, but so far have not come up with any good compromises. Sorry again for the aggravation....

The Grand Parkway is the same way. The concept of this facility has been on the metropolitan planning commission's Major Thoroughfare and Freeway Plan for years. The construction was inevitable. If residents and business would attempt to understand the project, the reasons for it being built, and who is planning it, they can work with them and get a good solution.

The CONCEPT of this facility was conceived over thirty years ago by Mayor Bob Lanier and his highway cronies. Even Mayor Bob has done a 360 on his position regarding the Grand Parkway, and yes, maybe thirty years ago it might have been a good decision, but not now, thirty years too late. Also, I don't know if you know this about the project, so I apologize in advance if I'm repeating something I'm sure you already know about the Grand Parkway, but the original plan had the entire project running up and down Spring Cypress. Did you know that?

Please visit our website at:

United to Save Our Spring

[pineda]

Are the contracts awarded this week mainly for engineering or is it a total restudy of the alignment? In other words, can we expect major alignment changes, or will they take the existing recommended alignment and just tweak it where necessary?

The contracts awarded this week ($6 Million Dollars of Harris County Tax-Payer Money) to Kellogg, Brown & Root (a division of Halliburton) are for schematics to be drawn up to show a viable route (Alignment E of Segment F-2) that the Harris County Toll Road Authority could take to "fast-track" this project. Gary Trietsch of the Houston division of TxDOT has admitted that the expenditure of funds here could prove wasteful and redundant as the Grand Parkway Association is still continuing their environmental impact studies and as a matter of fact, the GPA did not even know of the agenda item on the Harris County Commissioner's Court. Alignment E, by the way for those who do not know, is not the Preferred Recommended Alignment by the Grand Parkway Association or TxDOT. One interesting item that you may or may not know is that when the Grand Parkway was first conceived, it was supposed to built with donated properties from interested landowners and no taxpayer funds. Now, that has all changed, no one is donating land for this project, and your Harris County tax dollars are the only source of money for this project, not only to purchase the property from landowners and developers but to pay for all the other costs associated with building the Grand Parkway.

Will the corridor still be 400 feet wide if Harris County builds it (rather than TxDOT)?

No, at the last Public Hearing, the Grand Parkway Association had to admit that it may be a tolled road (now a certainty) and that it may be 400', 600, 800' or more wide. Michael Baker, the prime who prepared the Grand Parkway Corridor Study for Segments E, F1, F2, and G of the Grand Parkway says that the project scope included the development of topographic mapping for a 1200-foot width for the entire length of the preferred alignment.

Do you know if there is any plan to give the corridor true parkway characteristics? By that I mean not clear-cutting the corridor but instead leaving a wooded median, similar to I-45 north of Conroe?

No plan has ever been made to make this anything other than what it is; a highway for 18-wheelers to use to avoid the CBD of downtown Houston. As we discussed in the first two Public Hearings, if the documents will not admit that there may be potential impacts from this road, as far as pollution, flooding, noise, whatever, then these impacts do not have to be mitigated.

Please visit our website at;

United to Save Our Spring

[pineda]

The Grand Parkway project hardly seemed inevitable until it was added to the maps recently by those with lots of land to sell in the West. It was nothing but a crude plot to direct the region's fortunes into their own personal pockets.

I think even Mayor Bob Lanier would be willing to openly admit that to anyone these days, but not the developers of the Bridgelands; the Rouse Company.

We are now in the process of matching up developers properties to the route picked by HCTRA to be drawn for schematics. I think it will prove to be very enlightening and show that HCTRA has chosen their route based on minimizing impacts to developers alone, especially those with ties to Montgomery County.

[MaxConcrete]

The contracts awarded this week ($6 Million Dollars of Harris County Tax-Payer Money)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is it really taxpayer money? This money is almost surely coming from HCTRA's budget, which means that users of the Sam Houston Tollway are paying for it.

Now, that has all changed, no one is donating land for this project, and your Harris County tax dollars are the only source of money for this project,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Once again, this is toll revenue at stake, not tax funds. I think it is safe to say that no tax money (or a minimal amount) will be used for this project. If the ultimate tollway does not earn enough revenue to pay for itself, it will be subsidized by the users of the Sam Houston Tollway.

Now, that has all changed, no one is donating land for this project, and your Harris County tax dollars are the only source of money for this project, not only to purchase the property from landowners and developers but to pay for all the other costs associated with building the Grand Parkway.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The donated land model for the project development became non-viable when the area was urbanized. The original plan from the early 1980s was conceived at a time when it didn't take millions of dollars per segment to get environmental clearance. When environmental study costs exploded (mainly with ISTEA in 1991), the original plan developed by Lanier and others was down the drain. More importantly, if this is a tollway it will not use tax funds (or very minimal funds), plus it will not provide the same amount of benefit to the adjacent landowners (since tollways don't attract as much traffic as freeways).

No, at the last Public Hearing, the Grand Parkway Association had to admit that it may be a tolled road (now a certainty) and that it may be 400', 600, 800' or more wide.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If HCTRA builds this project, I think the right-of-way will be narrower, not wider. As you know, HCTRA does things on the cheap. They're not going to buy more land than they need. I would expect a 300-foot-wide corridor from HCTRA. I would be very, very surprised to see the corridor wider than 400 feet. Now if TxDOT builts it, that's a different story. I would expect a 400 foot corridor, maybe even a 500 foot corridor with a set-aside for future multi-modalism.

No plan has ever been made to make this anything other than what it is; a highway for 18-wheelers to use to avoid the CBD of downtown Houston.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

18-wheelers are not going to use the Grand Parkway to any large extent, especially if it is heavily tolled. In fact, I seem to notice very few trucks on the Sam Houston Tollway when I drive it. The real money in the project is commuter traffic.

As for beautification and enhancement, I think Save Our Spring should focus on that aspect rather than wage an opposition battle they are sure to lose. If they could get it built as a parkway rather than a clear-cut corridor freeway, it would be a very large step toward integrating it into the community with less impact and the potential for enhancing property values. After all, driving a nice wooded parkway to home can be viewed as a plus.

Ideally, I think the corridor should be about 400 feet wide with a wooded median and wooded buffers on both sides of the parkway. As you know, HCTRA won't pay any attention to aethetics unless they are forced to. That's where Save Our Spring could play a role.

As for Lanier, his real estate interests are now in downtown Houston so that is probably the main factor in his lack of interest in suburban freeways. Plus, Lanier may perceive downtown redevelopment as more of a challenge than freeway development, and perhaps he's looking to notch one more big accomplishment before he checks out. He really deserves a lot of the credit for the current downtown improvement since he started the process when he became mayor in 1991.

[pineda]

Although you know that I probably do not agree with just about everything you say, please know that I do appreciate your comments as they only spur me on to work even harder to stop the Grand Parkway; thanks again and have a great weekend! (BTW, Ric Williamson is one scary looking old dude in person!)

[GovernorAggie]

Pineda, if they said something about analysis being done in a 1200' foot swath, what they really mean is that they studied a 1200' buffer of either side of each alignment proposed for the Grand Parkway. This is not because of some devious plan to have the ROW take up 1200'. This number mandated by the federal government as part of the environmental impact process.

MaxConcrete, I agree totally with the idea of a wooded parkway, so that it actually is a PARKway. You mentioned I-45 near Conroe, and there are tons of segments of I-20 in Alabama, Georgia, and Mississippi (near Jackson) that are built like this and I'm sure that their ROWs aren't more than 400'. People would be surprised how much difference even a 50' forest in between the lanes would make in the highway's perception.

I know, I know, some here would say, "well, that's until they widen it..." Well, you can build a 4-lane tollway with room for 2 more lanes in about 200' of ROW if you had to, especially with no feeders. If they have a 400' ROW, then they can definitely keep the wooded feel.