Burj Dubai -- World's tallest and still going

[editor]

They're mostly migrant workers from South Asia who don't live in anything that fancy, and they are treated quite poorly. Dubai won't become a tourist playground because it's in the middle of an Islamic country.

Dubai is already a tourist playground. Being in the middle of an Islamic region doesn't mean anything. There are lots of fancy tourist playgrounds in the Middle East like Bahrain. Heck, there's even an island off the coast of Iran where anything goes; the Islamist government turns a blind eye to it because of all the hard currency (dollars and euros) that it brings in. As Americans we don't often associate the Middle East with being a playground for the rich and famous, but it is, and has been for decades.

And every time you drive your SUV into a gas station, a rich kid on the other side of the world thanks you for enabling his government to pay for his lavish lifestyle.

[WesternGulf]

Wow Dubai doesn't look nearly as dense from the photos attached to the article, as in that rendering.

Don't be fooled. There are older parts of Dubai that have the "foreign" density that you see in most international cities. It is just that a lot or most of the new development is happening in the parts that the original Dubai did not sprawl upon yet.

[Jax]

Interesting. I've never seen that angle of Dubai, and I actually went out looking for pictures. I thought it was all empty desert with a cluster of highways and skyscrapers. The old Dubai looks sort of interesting. I wonder why there are so few photos of it.

[TheNiche]

My problem is that ... well ... it's Dubai. It's not NYC or Paris, but that could change in 100 years or so.

What's so great about NYC or Paris?

[WesternGulf]

Interesting. I've never seen that angle of Dubai, and I actually went out looking for pictures. I thought it was all empty desert with a cluster of highways and skyscrapers. The old Dubai looks sort of interesting. I wonder why there are so few photos of it.

That area of town is called Deira. That may be an easier seacrh than Dubai. Here is a better view. The Parisian density is found around the creek. Sorry for the size but it will shrink:

[Chamo]

That area of town is called Deira. That may be an easier seacrh than Dubai. Here is a better view. The Parisian density is found around the creek. Sorry for the size but it will shrink:

Busy Port.... I Remember they were close to managing the Port of Houston and several more in the US.

[TheNiche]

I'd be interested to see what people here think the political implications of such a project in an Arab country are. I'd also like to know what this means to future urban planning and building design. Can you imagine the safety engineering that would be required for such a structure here in the US? Can you imagine what it would do to Houston's urban core if the parking and transportation, electrical and plumbing, approaches to airports, financial, occupancy, etc. concerns all had to be addressed here?

Is there a city outside maybe NY or Chicago in North America that could support such a building? Could they really?

Any attempt to apply problems created by the Burj Dubai to hypothetical developments in the U.S. or Western Europe would be a wasted effort. Nobody has that kind of money to throw away in a democratic market-driven economy.

[TheNiche]

This thing is so far beyond absurd -- such a whimsical test of the engineering envelope as to ensure it won't be surpassed for maybe 100 years, if ever. So, for the next century, this will be the bar. This will be the measure of engineering greatness. This will rewrite what we consider the manmade wonders of the world. It may even end up as a strange curiosity to future alien anthropologists trying to figure out the demise of human kind and wondering what our civilizations must have been like. I truly believe this is on the order of the great pyramids, in their time. They must have looked pretty crazy to the non-Egyptians, too.

Or, maybe this is a modern day tower of Babel -- with "international prestige and a show of economic power" being the new God that mankind is aspiring to touch.

I strongly suspect that the Burj Dubai will be surpassed several times over in the coming decade. Dictators and the like love phallic symbols.

However, relative to the economic effort expended on the pyramids, these supertalls are drops in a bucket.

[TheNiche]

I read somewhere in the last few days that Dubai is gaining 120,000 new residents EACH YEAR. I think they'll fill it.

According to the BEA, the old eight-county Houston MSA (Harris, Galveston, Brazoria, Fort Bend, Waller, Montgomery, Liberty, and Chambers) gained:

115,400 in 2003

116,100 in 2004

119,800 in 2005

According to projections from the UH Institute for Regional Forecasting, population growth in the Houston MSA between 2005 and 2010 is expected to average 140,593 persons per year.

I don't think that they'll fill all that space, except in the very long term. That's probably the idea.

[editor]

Busy Port.... I Remember they were close to managing the Port of Houston and several more in the US.

The ever-so-brief "Dubai Ports World" scandal. Certain elements in congress were outraged that the White House was awarding the contract to a UAE company in order to win favor in the moderate Arab state. Well, duh!!! It's called diplomacy.

Others were outraged that the United States would entrust the operation of its ports to a company in a foreign land, and the contract should remain with P&O, which is based in Britain. Somehow Britain isn't a foreign land.

Double whammy from both sides. It didn't stand a chance.

[Trae]

Dubai is building an extensive subway system, too.

[dalparadise]

Any attempt to apply problems created by the Burj Dubai to hypothetical developments in the U.S. or Western Europe would be a wasted effort. Nobody has that kind of money to throw away in a democratic market-driven economy.

That, in itself, is one of the points I was getting at.

[Trae]

And another thing, Dubai is building a tower that will be taller than the Burj Dubai. It was suppose to be 1,600 meters (just under one mile), but had to be scaled back to 3,937 feet. Here is a rendering:

[nmainguy]

Almost 7/8ths of the UAE's construction workforce are immigrants contracted by a dictatorial monarch. I suppose we could blame the workers for their own lot because they feel the need to make what they can to send back home to their families no more than we should fault the dictator for taking advantage of them.

[TheNiche]

Almost 7/8ths of the UAE's construction workforce are immigrants contracted by a dictatorial monarch. I suppose we could blame the workers for their own lot because they feel the need to make what they can to send back home to their families no more than we should fault the dictator for taking advantage of them.

That dictating bastard, providing other nations' poor people with jobs that they willingly take! How dare he!!!

[grumbling_to_self]Damn dictators, don't know how to use the tip of a gun barrel anymore...[/grumble]

...

[editor]

Almost 7/8ths of the UAE's construction workforce are immigrants contracted by a dictatorial monarch. I suppose we could blame the workers for their own lot because they feel the need to make what they can to send back home to their families no more than we should fault the dictator for taking advantage of them.

Monarch, yes. Dictator? First time I've heard that. While many groups may disagree with the UAE's politics and policies, it's probably the most liberal/Westernized country in the region. No, it's not up to American standards, but you can't change 3,000 years of history in ten years.

[CDeb]

And another thing, Dubai is building a tower that will be taller than the Burj Dubai. It was suppose to be 1,600 meters (just under one miles), but had to be scaled back to 3,937 feet. Here is a rendering:

The foundation on that thing must be a mutha.

[MidtownCoog]

Dubai is a trend that won't last. No matter how many fancy buildings they build.

PRINT IT

[nmainguy]

That dictating bastard, providing other nations' poor people with jobs that they willingly take! How dare he!!!

[grumbling_to_self]Damn dictators, don't know how to use the tip of a gun barrel anymore...[/grumble]

...

Monarch, yes. Dictator? First time I've heard that. While many groups may disagree with the UAE's politics and policies, it's probably the most liberal/Westernized country in the region. No, it's not up to American standards, but you can't change 3,000 years of history in ten years.

So what would you call a heriditary premiership and presidency?

So let's just go along to get along. That's the "American Way." Except if we hadn't always been the antithesis to tyranny we would have remained in the niche's cave along with the UAE's dictatorial monarchy.

I always find it amazing how willing some are to give up freedom for the temporary comfort of tyranny.

[nmm]

This whole argument about dictators and such is a complete waste of time. To me it sounds like this criticism comes from a people who increasingly feel marginalized in world affairs.

As for Dubai, i have heard from locals that they prefer Dubai open herself more towards Easterners rather than Westerners. Easterners (Malays, Indians, Chinese, Japanese, etc) tend to share some of the cultural nuances and idiyosyncrecies of the Arab World.

Btw not all the towers are for business, some are for residential.

And yes, it is indentured servitude building those megatowers. However i wouldnt place 100% blame on the government. The government in its ideals of increasing business investment allows companies to have a direct relationship with their employees with minimal government intervention. Remember, it isnt the government who hired these workers, its independent Construction Companies. It is truly free trade with no government intervention. Some blame, not all, can be shifted on the government.

[editor]

So what would you call a heriditary premiership and presidency?

A legislative monarchy, similar to Britain, The Netherlands, Belgium, and a dozen other countries. I don't think anyone in their right mind considers Queen Elizabeth or Queen Beatrix to be dictators.

Again, the UAE is not a Western nation. It has its own laws, customs, culture, and traditions. It is trying hard to Westernize. It's come farther in 20 years than the United States did in 200. Just because its government isn't a mirror of Washington, DC doesn't make it a dictatorship.

[MidtownCoog]

It's come farther in 20 years than the United States did in 200.

That's one very odd way to look at it. Too bad it makes zero sense.

[TheNiche]

So what would you call a heriditary premiership and presidency?

So let's just go along to get along. That's the "American Way." Except if we hadn't always been the antithesis to tyranny we would have remained in the niche's cave along with the UAE's dictatorial monarchy.

I always find it amazing how willing some are to give up freedom for the temporary comfort of tyranny.

Actually, on this point I agree with you, nmainguy. A hereditarily-based monarchy is pretty much a dictatorship. ...but that doesn't mean that every single dictator is a bad dictator. The big problem with dictatorships is that the good ones eventually die, and replacing them with other good ones can be difficult. In the long run, political volatility and eventually revolution is inevitable without reforms being made whereby one of the good dictators voluntarily surrenders a bit of power at a time.

...now as far as my "cave," I just don't really understand what you're getting at. Please clarify.

[TheNiche]

This whole argument about dictators and such is a complete waste of time. To me it sounds like this criticism comes from a people who increasingly feel marginalized in world affairs.

Nope. The resources being misallocated to a single tall building that serves the same function as many less expensive smaller buildings side-by-side could've been given back to the people in the form of tax breaks/refunds, social services, infrastructure, parks, etc., or the saved funds could've just been invested in a permanent fund with proceeds are given to the people or used to reduce taxes.

The opportunity cost of the scale of the Burj is great. For enduring that, I pity the people of the U.A.E.

[WesternGulf]

Great pic of the construction at noght:

[nmm]

The guest workers in Dubai have much better treatment on paper than the (illegal) guest workers of the USA.

[nmainguy]

The guest workers in Dubai have much better treatment on paper than the (illegal) guest workers of the USA.

US illegals are just that: Illegals-not guests. They have the freedom to come and go. They have the freedom to not live in labor camps. They have the freedom to assimilate if they so choose and to become citizens if they so choose. Of course those in Dubai could have choosen to not enter into what amounts to indentured servantship...but they did. Shame on them. It's stupid to compare the two groups as equal regarding rights.

[nmm]

The ones in Dubai come as Guest Workers. They are Guests. They are guaranteed certain things:

$1/HR

Free Health Care

Free Living Quarters

It is true that they get treated like crap, but thats a social problem. All South Asians get treated like crap by Arabs.

Why did i relate them to US Illegals? Because unlike the US, the UAE recognizes these guest workers. On the other hand, the US government has a good estimation of how many illegals live in their country and of what sector these illegals find jobs. Im sure the federal government discusses these things and realizes the benefits illegals pose to the US economy.

As for the "indentured servants" in Dubai, they chose to enter into this deal because they saw some benefit. This is the face of Capitalism.

[KatieDidIt]

The guest workers in Dubai have much better treatment on paper than the (illegal) guest workers of the USA.

If you are illegal, you aren't a GUEST.

Guests would be those with work visas and green cards.

Thank you

[editor]

I've always found it curious that the United States and other top tier nations don't have guest worker programs, while nations like Hong Kong, China, U.A.E., Singapore and others do.

Anyway -- please keep this thread on topic. If you want to talk about guest worker programs, start a thread in Off Topic.