811 Main: Office Skyscraper At 811 Main St.

[Pumapayam]

It would be better if we could delay the inevitable HAIF pessimism and doubts until we even see a rendering. Or Hines's website even mentions the project. We all are aware projects change as they go forth (or die) but it would be a much more pleasurable experience if we could learn just a little more before comments like that (true or not).

Too many nice projects get downsized. I am still perplexed who decided to remove the residential portion from the Pavilions project. I agree, and I do hope this project stay at a grand 47 stories.

That's what I am hoping as well. Street level retail would be awesome - it's in an area where there is already a lot going on. I can't remmeber what is in the "New West Building". Is it just empty or does it have retail? It's not the building with the dollar store, is it?

The city should mandate all new building incorporate it. What to point of having sidewalks and grids if 3 of the 4 sides of the block have nothing on them.

[GovernorAggie]

It has one of the Dollar Stores as well as Rama's African Boutique and it had the Metro soul food restaurant (no, METRO did not own it). I saw the "New West Building" is ripped down already and Metro is closed down.

[Jax]

Oh yeah, it has the sketchy t-shirt / wig shop right?

Maybe if the "New West Building" is torn down, the t-shirt / wig shop will move into the new building when they complete it!

[musicman]

The city should mandate all new building incorporate it. What to point of having sidewalks and grids if 3 of the 4 sides of the block have nothing on them.

Downtown still doesn't have that much of a market for retail to make it mandatory.

making it mandatory would mean that some great lobby spaces wouldn't be possible.

[TheNiche]

Maybe if the "New West Building" is torn down...

It will be torn down, per HBJ.

[MidtownCoog]

making it mandatory would mean that some great lobby spaces wouldn't be possible.

Do we even have any buildings downtown with "great lobby space"? Many (like Wells Fargo) hardly have any, and what they have is not even worth looking at.

Edit: The old Chase bank lobby is lovely.

Edited July 13, 2007 by MidtownCoog

[Jax]

By the way I was just kidding about the wig shop. I hope something better moves in if the new building has retail.

Does the "New West Building" have any historical significance?

[Pumapayam]

making it mandatory would mean that some great lobby spaces wouldn't be possible.

I am sure they could disguise the lobby elevation with some staircase action up a floor and leave the entire first floor to retail.

[musicman]

I am sure they could disguise the lobby elevation with some staircase action up a floor and leave the entire first floor to retail.

...which results in a poor lobby. IMO adding retail on classic/classy buildings would be tacky in most instances.

[sevfiv]

Does the "New West Building" have any historical significance?

well, that's relative

it was built in 1912 as the Beatty Building (David R. Beatty - oil business) and designed by Henry C. Cooke (Magnolia Brewery).

the original James Coney Island location was there, too

here's a thread about a restoration that never happened:

http://www.houstonarchitecture.info/haif/i...?showtopic=1114

and a postcard from that thread:

Edited July 13, 2007 by sevfiv

[MidtownCoog]

...which results in a poor lobby. IMO adding retail on classic/classy buildings would be tacky in most instances.

That's assuming the lobby is on the ground floor. Allen Center's lobby is technically on the second floor, with (gasp) retail on the first. OK, the retail is a Fantastic Sams, Banc of America, etc. But still.

[Jax]

...which results in a poor lobby. IMO adding retail on classic/classy buildings would be tacky in most instances.

The Empire State Building is both classic and classy and it has retail on the ground floor.

[musicman]

The Empire State Building is both classic and classy and it has retail on the ground floor.

that's why i said in most instances. if there was sufficient demand for retail, it would be built.

[sevfiv]

that's why i said in most instances. if there was sufficient demand for retail, it would be built.

at the risk of sounding silly, how is the demand determined?

[musicman]

at the risk of sounding silly, how is the demand determined?

silly? nope. there are numerous empty business spaces currently along main. if there was that much demand those business spaces would be taken up and i would believe that the hrs of the ones that are there currently would be extended beyond typical business hrs.

[TheNiche]

at the risk of sounding silly, how is the demand determined?

These fellows take a crack at it in a report comissioned for the Downtown Management District, but their conclusions are limited to the neighborhood level. It is a little off, I think, because there are a lot of different kinds of consumers represented in downtown Houston, the only one that really has a critical mass is office-oriented convenience retail. Dining has done fairly well because they can work the office crowd, hotel crowd, and some residents, but bars and entertainment establishments are in a state of flux right now, and it's hard to pin down that market. Destination retail, such as apparel stores, has always floundered in downtown. The Park Shops at Houston Center are doing terribly. Houston Pavilions could really make or break this segment in my estimation, and there is no foregone conclusion one way or the other.

The folks that did this study do not attempt to figure out the suitability of individual parcels for retail. Your question becomes more difficult when applied to a specific site within downtown Houston because of traffic (both public and private) and pedestrian volume and patterns, visibility, adjacency to various types of property, the levels of occupancy and upside opportunities for population and employment growth in adjacent and nearby properties, and of course physical suitability--the Wells Fargo Building is never going to have outdoor storefront retail, for instance, in spite of the density of the skyline district. To try and tackle all these issues, a broker/appraiser/developer looks at retail offerings that are most comparable to what is on his site and can observe how rapidly retail space has absorbed and the frequency of tenant turnover given the rents that those similar properties are charging.

Edited July 13, 2007 by TheNiche

[Jax]

It's true, there does seem to be a lot of empty space on main that needs to be filled in. I guess what I worry about is if they build this tower with absolutely no room for retail, and downtown really takes off in the next few years, that area will always be empty. It's more of an investment in the future, but I guess business people don't like that sort of uncertainty.

With HP being so near by, and Macy's and American Apparel (?), it seems like downtown will become more busy in the next few years and it might be a good investment in that case. But I guess it's still a risk.

[tenoeight]

Although the thought of a 47 story modern monument sounds grand, bigger isn't always better. The superstructures in downtown have eclipsed some of the true Texas landmarks... Like the crown of downtown The Neils Esperson.

[Subdude]

I can't imagine that ground floor retail would be considered "tacky," or that a classic skyscraper couldn't have it. Ultimately they are buildings that should be useful to people, not just sculpture.

As of yet this block does not have a tunnel connection. I'm guessing that a connection will be made to the tunnel system through the 806 Main building. A project of this scope wouldn't be built without a connection. What I can see is a combination of tunnel and street retail, as in 1000 Main. That's not tacky, is it?

Also, according to the HBJ print edition, Hines intends that the new tower be LEED-certified. Good for them!

It is really amazing to see this kind of skyscraper activity going on - serious proposals from Hines, Brookwoods, and Trammel-Crow. This must be the first time since the 1980s when downtown has been booming like this. The HBJ article mentions that Trammel has an advantage with Disco Tower because they already own the land and it is surface parking so no demo necessary. The article has a quote that at least three of the proposed downtown projects will be built.

[Trae]

It would be nice if this tower had a tunnel connection and the retail was two stories, starting from the tunnel and up to the ground floor.

[shasta]

Hines has done residential before- haven't they?

Why can't they do a 47 story mixed use building with retail, residential, and office space? If it's on or close to Main it makes sense to diversify this development. The restaurants/ bars on the ground level of the Rice lofts seem to be holding their own and last I checked the Rice lofts are 98% occupied and the rent is around 1500 a month. There is a demand for housing. Hines really needs to make a splash in downtown with a 'new' type of development for downtown Houston. They really do. The more we can put people in a quality building 24/7 the more there will be a demand for retail, restaurants, and other services in downtown. As great as Pennzoil and Republic/Nations bank are they almost do a disservice at the street level because you are walking past a blank wall that kills any momentum on the street level. We need to create synergy not voids.

In Chicago the city goes one step further and they require that even parking garages contribute by adding retail or restaurants around the perimeter. They require the parking garages to be architectural. We are not Chicago but it would be nice for the developers to think this way because that is what the market demands.

[TheNiche]

Hines has done residential before- haven't they?

Why can't they do a 47 story mixed use building with retail, residential, and office space? If it's on or close to Main it makes sense to diversify this development. The restaurants/ bars on the ground level of the Rice lofts seem to be holding their own and last I checked the Rice lofts are 98% occupied and the rent is around 1500 a month. There is a demand for housing. Hines really needs to make a splash in downtown with a 'new' type of development for downtown Houston. They really do. The more we can put people in a quality building 24/7 the more there will be a demand for retail, restaurants, and other services in downtown. As great as Pennzoil and Republic/Nations bank are they almost do a disservice at the street level because you are walking past a blank wall that kills any momentum on the street level. We need to create synergy not voids.

In Chicago the city goes one step further and they require that even parking garages contribute by adding retail or restaurants around the perimeter. They require the parking garages to be architectural. We are not Chicago but it would be nice for the developers to think this way because that is what the market demands.

The most that Post Rice can get is $1.77 per square foot for a 1/1 unit that is 733 square feet. Their average lease rate is $1.54 per square foot. Not even close to the rates that are required to justify new highrise residential construction, which is somewhere north of $2.00 per square foot, and at which point, demand really thins out. Also, as of 6/20/07, Post Rice was 92% occupied, down from a peak of 99% in November 2005.

Aside from a few rental units in the Four Seasons that are outrageously priced, the rental units in 917 Main have the highest average ask rates in downtown, at $1.75 per square foot.

[shasta]

The most that Post Rice can get is $1.77 per square foot for a 1/1 unit that is 733 square feet. Their average lease rate is $1.54 per square foot. Not even close to the rates that are required to justify new highrise residential construction, which is somewhere north of $2.00 per square foot, and at which point, demand really thins out. Also, as of 6/20/07, Post Rice was 92% occupied, down from a peak of 99% in November 2005.

Aside from a few rental units in the Four Seasons that are outrageously priced, the rental units in 917 Main have the highest average ask rates in downtown, at $1.75 per square foot.

I checked last week. I was looking for an apartment and every place that I checked near downtown, midtown, etc was at least 96% occupied. This would justify Camden building a second large complex in midtown because the demand is there. Rice only had two or three 1 bedroom units available in the next 1-2 months. Go check for yourself.

Edited July 14, 2007 by shasta

[TheNiche]

I checked last week. I was looking for an apartment and every place that I checked near downtown, midtown, etc was at least 96% occupied. This would justify Camden building a second large complex in midtown because the demand is there. Rice only had two or three 1 bedroom units available in the next 1-2 months. Go check for yourself.

What they were telling you was the sum of what is physically occupied and those units for which they have accepted applications but don't yet have income. To a financier, all that matters is cash flow. All that matters is the 92%. Also, the one-bedroom units tend to have the highest occupancy levels. I don't doubt your figures in the least, but it is important to bear in mind the financial risks from the developers' perspective when assessing real estate markets.

Midtown is a somewhat different story because midrises don't cost as much to build as do highrises and the land doesn't cost quite as much, which means that they can be made affordable to a greater number of people. It is easier to justify Midtown or 4th Ward at this time.

[musicman]

It's true, there does seem to be a lot of empty space on main that needs to be filled in. I guess what I worry about is if they build this tower with absolutely no room for retail, and downtown really takes off in the next few years, that area will always be empty. It's more of an investment in the future, but I guess business people don't like that sort of uncertainty.

With HP being so near by, and Macy's and American Apparel (?), it seems like downtown will become more busy in the next few years and it might be a good investment in that case. But I guess it's still a risk.

very risky indeed. look at midtown growth along the rail line or lack thereof.

[musicman]

Why can't they do a 47 story mixed use building with retail, residential, and office space? If it's on or close to Main it makes sense to diversify this development. The restaurants/ bars on the ground level of the Rice lofts seem to be holding their own

The retail on the ground level of rice has been cyclical that's why some have gone and others took the chance and opened something back up. i know that the company in dallas that manages the rice wasn't really as friendly as they could be to the businesses which is why some left. i still think macy's is a good indication of the shopping situation. their hours indicate when people are actually down there to make it profitable.

sounds like hines is assuming that with the positive business environment in houston that office space is more critical downtown and hence the office building.

[TheNiche]

The retail on the ground level of rice has been cyclical that's why some have gone and others took the chance and opened something back up. i know that the company in dallas that manages the rice wasn't really as friendly as they could be to the businesses which is why some left. i still think macy's is a good indication of the shopping situation. their hours indicate when people are actually down there to make it profitable.

I spoke with a rep from Post Properties a year or so back, and they commented that one of the most challenging factors about their urban projects is that retailers--especially restaurants--generate a lot of garbage but can't just take it out the back door and put it in an out-of-sight dumpster like they can with a strip center. And they don't like taking garbage through the front of the establishment.

sounds like hines is assuming that with the positive business environment in houston that office space is more critical downtown and hence the office building.

There's certainly a highest-and-best-use thing going on downtown. For several years, the highest use was residential pretty much throughout. It seems as though there's now a better mix of sites.

Also something for shasta to consider, btw, is that residential and office uses don't often mix all that well because institutional investors tend to look for office properties or residential properties, but rarely both. If an investor wants both downtown residential and downtown office in their portfolio so as to diversify away risk, it is easy enough to buy all or part of two seperate buildings, but if they want only one and not the other, which is entirely possible depending on varying market conditions and expectations, then they'll move along to something that suits them better.

Additionally, it is difficult to justify a rent premium on space in buildings that mix residential and office. Retail mixes well with either use, but there are really very few people that would rather lease a home in the same building that they work--most prefer to seperate the living and working function by at least a short walk, if not by a greater distance. The greater virtue in mixing uses is not so much to give a building as many functions as possible so much as it is to ensure that the elements that comprise a neighborhood are well within walking distance of one another.

[Trae]

I would live in the same building that I work in. That would be SO easy. If you have to be at work at 9 AM, you can wake up at 8:15 or 8:30. Lunch break? Head upstairs.

[TheNiche]

I would live in the same building that I work in. That would be SO easy. If you have to be at work at 9 AM, you can wake up at 8:15 or 8:30. Lunch break? Head upstairs.

Most people don't like being that tied to their job. If they don't like what they do, being in the same building for so much of their waking life creates a feeling of entrapment.

Additionally, the interests of both residential and office tenants are to keep a secure premesis, but that becomes exceptionally difficult if the same elevator bank serves different populations that come and go at different hours. The best solution would likely entail giving each building use its own lobby with either a seperate entrance or an access-controlled interior passageway, but then you may as well have one office building next to a residential building, joined by a skywalk or tunnel. Same difference, more or less.

...now live-work units--that's a whole different story altogether. Those really can be sweet little deals, but the target market for those tends to be an entrepreneurial or telecommuting crowd, so I come back full circle to the bit about people needing to be happy with their work.

Edited July 14, 2007 by TheNiche

[musicman]

I would live in the same building that I work in. That would be SO easy.

there might be a slot on baker st.

Also something for shasta to consider, btw, is that residential and office uses don't often mix all that well because institutional investors tend to look for office properties or residential properties, but rarely both.

managing a mixed property might be more challenging as well.