Jump to content

HISD needs 805 million in repairs


Recommended Posts

start listening to talk radio. they had an HISD person on some station this afternoon. it appears HISD hired a firm to do the study and the board didn't have a chance to study the recommendations. don't you think HISD should have had some input?

I used to listen to a little bit of Sean Hannity just for fun, but, no, I do not listen to talk radio.

In that case, HISD should have hired an independent firm to provide some input on the size of the bond/which schools to close/etc.

Link to post
Share on other sites
that's what they did with no input from HISD

In other words, HISD did not look at the input of the firm, right?

Does HISD still have a chance to look at the input of the firm?

Which people? :rolleyes:

By the public, musicman meant people like the passionate supporters of Jack Yates High School, who cried against closing Yates (Yates is a tradition in the Third Ward, and many alumni are passionate about the school). When HISD considered closing Yates, some men registered a website asking the public to save Jack Yates. See it archived here: http://web.archive.org/web/20050306112957/...ejackyates.com/

Link to post
Share on other sites
In other words, HISD did not look at the input of the firm, right?

Does HISD still have a chance to look at the input of the firm?

No, HISD had no input to the firm's report. IMO the school district should have had some type of input.

of course they have a chance to look at the input but when the news came out that HISD needs 805 million, sounds like they aren't going to.

By the public, musicman meant
not moi, that was houstonmacbro.
Link to post
Share on other sites

HISD should check to see if there is a significant backlash against the bond proposal. If there is, HISD should at least seek the company that it hired for consulting to see if it needs to ask for less money and/or close more schools.

Anyway, relating to the previous bond, I can state a comparison between Gregory-Lincoln Education Center's old and new campuses.

1. The old campus is three stories tall and has no charm whatsoever. I could not get inside, but the outside looks sickening.

The new campus is two stories tall and looks smaller and unimposing. It seems like HISD knew that enrollment would drop at Gregory-Lincoln, and asked for a smaller campus.

Edited by VicMan
Link to post
Share on other sites
Anyway, relating to the previous bond, I can state a comparison between Gregory-Lincoln Education Center's old and new campuses.

1. The old campus is three stories tall and has no charm whatsoever. I could not get inside, but the outside looks sickening.

The new campus is two stories tall and looks smaller and unimposing.

..and as a taxpayer that provides no justificaiton for building a new campus.
Link to post
Share on other sites

There's significant public backlash against HISD already. No one needs to spend any money on polls; private schools in Houston are thriving.

But,

Where is the public oversight? From where I sit, HISD, with its current leadership, is incapable of making ethical decisions.

The problem with HISD is not its architecture or lack of 'charm'; it's the internal systemic racial preferences, nonfeasance and malfeasance in the implementation of inherently unsound policies.

What I simply don't understand is why HISD's has such a sense of entitlement and arrogance (rather than stewardship) w/regard to public repsonsibility.

Edited by Toggle3
Link to post
Share on other sites
..and as a taxpayer that provides no justificaiton for building a new campus.

In Gregory-Lincoln's case, the rebuilding seemed somewhat questionable since the particular neighborhood gentrified. The deal is that there are a few elementary schools nearby (namely J. Will Jones, MacGregor) that could be closed in the future in order to expand Gregory-Lincoln's geographic area. This would justify the existence of the 4th Ward school.

As for whether to renovate or rebuild, I read an article about Pershing Middle School's new campus. Pershing MS's campus was justified, since the school is fairly popular with magnet school parents and that the neighborhoods served by Pershing remain as family areas (as in fairly wealthy family areas, i. e. West University Place, Bellaire, Braeswood area).

http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive....id=2007_4265447

"The $31 million school is one of the more expensive construction projects in an $808.6 million bond package for Houston Independent School District, approved by voters in 2002. Originally, Pershing was just going to be renovated, but contractors realized the work was much more expensive than forecast.

Building would cost a few million dollars more than renovating. So the district opted for new."

Also, here is an article from the Houston Press about the mess of HSPVA's rebuilding plans (which were later scrapped):

http://www.houstonpress.com/2004-12-30/new...-shaky-grounds/

So, why did HISD scrap HSPVA's building? This is my largest reservation against the new bond. If HISD stated that it would rebuild HSPVA and then forget about the matter after winning the battle to build the Gregory-Lincoln campus, why should I trust that the district would rebuild my high school (this was announced for the upcoming bond election)?

There's significant public backlash against HISD already. No one needs to spend any money on polls; private schools in Houston are thriving.

But you would have to find where the actual private school students come from and the reason for being sent to private school. Yes, there are lots of private schools within HISD's boundaries. Yet, there are also a lot of private schools within SBISD's boundaries. SBISD, by the way, has Memorial High School and Stratford High School, known academic juggernauts.

Edited by VicMan
Link to post
Share on other sites
In Gregory-Lincoln's case, the rebuilding seemed somewhat questionable since the particular neighborhood gentrified.

that's my point....before you said "The old campus is three stories tall and has no charm whatsoever. I could not get inside, but the outside looks sickening" and IMO this isn't a reason to build a new school if it is working fine as is.

But you would have to find where the actual private school students come from and the reason for being sent to private school. Yes, there are lots of private schools within HISD's boundaries. Yet, there are also a lot of private schools within SBISD's boundaries. SBISD, by the way, has Memorial High School and Stratford High School, known academic juggernauts.

most go to private schools because parents feel the education at public schools isn't the best for their child/children.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I wanted to get inside to see if the physical conditions are disgusting. I suspect that the physical inside looks disgusting, but I have no evidence of this. If there is a time when the campus is open, I would like to go inside and take photographs.

Toggle implied that school district's mismanagement is the reason why private school enrollment increased. What I meant is that there are other reasons why parents choose private school, such as:

* They feel that public school, as a concept, is inherently flawed

* The specific private school is the best fit for a given child

* The parents want a religious education for the child

* The parents prefer the social and/or academic climate of the private school over the eligible public schools' climates

that's my point....before you said "The old campus is three stories tall and has no charm whatsoever. I could not get inside, but the outside looks sickening" and IMO this isn't a reason to build a new school if it is working fine as is.

most go to private schools because parents feel the education at public schools isn't the best for their child/children.

Edited by VicMan
Link to post
Share on other sites
so what in your opinion constitutes disgust?

In my opinion, a disgusting school building would contain: General poor maintenance, rust, failed plumbing, graffiti, dingy lights, dirty floors, water leaks, mold, and frequently broken air conditioning.

Anyway, here are three pictures I took of the old school:

* http://s143.photobucket.com/albums/r129/Vi...nt=P1010012.jpg

* http://s143.photobucket.com/albums/r129/Vi...=P1010019-1.jpg

* http://s143.photobucket.com/albums/r129/Vi...nt=P1010018.jpg = The best marquee ever!

Edited by VicMan
Link to post
Share on other sites
In my opinion, a disgusting school building would contain: General poor maintenance, rust, failed plumbing, dingy lights, dirty floors, water leaks, mold, and frequently broken air conditioning.

dingy lights? dirty floors? means they should build a new building? when you have dirty floors and burned out light bulbs at your house what does your family do? build a new house?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Note: I posted a link to some photographs I took of the campus.

Most families would renovate their houses if the conditions were that dire. Then again, remember that there are teardowns and resulting McMansions. My family happens to be the type to renovate.

I understand your reluctance to support a bond that would build a new school in place of an existing campus, especially if there are no new building codes (i.e. ADA) that would hamper the concept of renovating the old campus.

The renovation of Pershing seems to illustrate HISD's mental process when the district decides to rebuild instead of renovate.

dingy lights? dirty floors? means they should build a new building? when you have dirty floors and burned out light bulbs at your house what does your family do? build a new house?
Edited by VicMan
Link to post
Share on other sites
Note: I posted a link to some photographs I took of the campus.

Most families would renovate their houses if the conditions were that dire.

i'm not sure how the pics support your argument. from the pics, all i see are exterior shots that don't show any "dire" conditions that you alluded to. IMO, a good power wash and the building will look new again.

Link to post
Share on other sites
i'm not sure how the pics support your argument. from the pics, all i see are exterior shots that don't show any "dire" conditions that you alluded to. IMO, a good power wash and the building will look new again.

Yeah - I wish I could get inside the school so I could take photographs of the school (maybe the old building is open on Monday - I'm not sure if it is)

Also, if I encounter a staff member, I should ask if the demolition is due to any new building codes.

Edited by VicMan
Link to post
Share on other sites
How HISD keeps asking for money having the type of educational problems that they currently have is mind boggling!!!

Enhouston, many educational problems cannot be solved by any transfusion of money.

The money is strictly for facilities. Remember that, even if the kids demonstrate no interest in school whatsoever, in the end, they are required to attend school. Even if the performance is poor (I will tell you why below), the buildings still have to be maintained.

NOW, with why the kids do not do well, frankly in many communities the support for education does not exist. Parents are unable to instill pro-education values in their children (they are often too busy working). Dysfunctional "homeboy" cultures (i.e. teenage street gangs) seduce children away from school. You can read about this on Richard Geib's website at http://www.rjgeib.com/biography/inner-city...s/innerblu.html

Link to post
Share on other sites
How HISD keeps asking for money having the type of educational problems that they currently have is mind boggling!!!

Very well said.

HISD arrogance and entitlement needs to be replaced with accountability. No bond should be passed until then.

It's HISD policies that are unsound not the school buildings.

Edited by Toggle3
Link to post
Share on other sites
Toggle implied that school district's mismanagement is the reason why private school enrollment increased.

Yep. No implication, that's the reason.

The district documents the reasons student are withdrawn. The main reason parents withdraw their kids is: HISD doesn't provide physically safe or academically sound educational services.

I contend that with proper management and policies of excellence, parents wouldn't feel the need to spend 10K a semester for private school tuition.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Would you do us a favor and scan the documents? Post them on a Photobucket account?

"HISD doesn't provide physically safe or academically sound educational services."

Education services depend on a school by school basis, Toggle. Tell this to a kid who goes to Sam Houston High School, and (if he knew what better schools looked like, smelled like, and tasted like) he would likely agree. Tell this to a kid who goes to HSPVA, and he will be rolling on the floor with laughter.

Anyway, part of the reason why HISD has few middle class kids overall is because the middle class left most of HISD. Most of HISD consists of blue collar neighborhoods filled with people who cannot pay 10K to go to the elite private schools (unless they secure scholarships). Of course, cheaper private schools exist in those areas, and people go there. Remember that HISD schools declined because the neighborhoods declined; remember what happened to Sharpstown in the 1990s? Yes, areas gentrify, but usually they are filled with people who do not have children. Those who do happen to enroll in the Bellaire or Lamar feeder patterns, magnet schools, or private schools.

And, look at this thread, which explains the decline of Lee High School: http://www.houstonarchitecture.info/haif/i...ic=9524&hl=

Toggle, I will tell you that oftentimes people may choose HISD if they get into the "good" schools, and choose private school or charter schools if they do not. For instance, one of my classmates at Carnegie Vanguard previously attended Hamilton Middle in the Heights and Carrillo Elementary in the East End. However, her younger sister, who attended Carrillo, did not get into any of the favored middle schools. Because the family viewed Jackson Middle School, the zoned school, as a poor school, the younger sister went to Catholic school.

Yep. No implication, that's the reason.

The district documents the reasons student are withdrawn. The main reason parents withdraw their kids is: HISD doesn't provide physically safe or academically sound educational services.

I contend that with proper management and policies of excellence, parents wouldn't feel the need to spend 10K a semester for private school tuition.

Edited by VicMan
Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nb/cyf...ws/5029276.html

This article compares and contrasts the bonds of Houston ISD and Cypress-Fairbanks ISD.

"HISD, for instance, is rebuilding many of its aging campuses. In an effort to turn around a reputation for inefficient bureaucracy, the district spent $42 million from its most recent bond issue on project management fees.

Cypress-Fairbanks is working to stay on top of growth, rapidly churning out large, almost cookie-cutter campuses. Even though its total debt is less than HISD's, Cy-Fair's modest tax base requires homeowners to pay twice the rate for bonds as their urban neighbors."

"Even Cy-Fair students might not be able to pick out their own campuses from aerial photos. To mass-produce schools as efficiently as possible, the district uses just a handful of blueprints. It also uses many of the same materials district-wide, down to the trademark "Cy-Fair Blue" carpeting."

"HISD used a prototype to build four pre-kindergarten centers, but the rest of the new schools were custom-built."

"Because HISD opts to replace many of its older schools, it must deal with the constraints of neighborhoods and pre-existing sites. With about a dozen schools built before 1920, the district also pays more to preserve history."

"To accommodate its booming enrollment, Cy-Fair designs larger campuses. A typical HISD elementary school is 86,000 square feet and holds 750 kids, a size Houston leaders say better suits children. Cy-Fair's elementaries are up to 99,350 square feet and can hold up to 1,040 students."

Edited by VicMan
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1 month later...

Complaints from parents, politicians and the city's largest business organization about HISD's $805 million construction plan forced school district officials to unveil a revised proposal Monday that they say shows they're listening.

The concessions include renovating, rather than replacing, a few campuses and abandoning plans to create prekindergarten- through eighth-grade campuses in the Fifth Ward.

The district also vowed to comply with environmentally conscious standards as it builds new schools and to use tougher building standards to construct at least five new campuses

Link to post
Share on other sites
The revisions are "not based on the loudest voices in the community, but in the quiet voices of our children," Superintendent Abelardo Saavedra said. "HISD will not abandon the needs of our children. We will not allow the outside influences to derail us from our commitment."

full article

I just glad someone opended up Saavedra's eye's to the deplorable conditions of the much older schools like Jackson Middle School on Polk in the Near East End. Even he was shocked to see what was and has been going on there. The school was 3rd rate even 35 years ago. :blink:

Link to post
Share on other sites

One of my classmates from high school has a little sister. The little sister did not get into the public middle school that her big sister attended. The mother of the family decided not to send the little sister, previously a student at a public elementary, to Jackson Middle School; therefore the little sister is now in a local Catholic school.

Edited by VicMan
Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.chron.com/disp/commnts.mpl/front/5158571.html

"Blacks urge HISD to delay vote on bond

Coalition vows to fight proposal at ballot box if it's not revamped"

As I said, I don't see how these voters think that voting down the bond will prevent schools from closing; HISD always can simply say "Okay, you voted down our bond, but we are still closing those schools!"

Link to post
Share on other sites

My sister and I attended school in a metal building with little insulation for eleven and nine years respectively. We both graduated with above average scores on SAT and ACT tests. It doesn't take commercial grade buildings with all the bells and whistles to educate.

School Districts are way to concerned with multi-million dollar sports complexes and cow-towing to teacher's unions. None of my teachers had a lounge or private bathrooms. The teachers ate, socialized and went potty with the kids. What a novel way to cut down on bad behavior and expenses.

ditto toggle3's comment.

Link to post
Share on other sites
My sister and I attended school in a metal building with little insulation for eleven and nine years respectively. We both graduated with above average scores on SAT and ACT tests. It doesn't take commercial grade buildings with all the bells and whistles to educate.

concur! people don't believe it when i tell them i went to school with no a/c....and that was in Houston.

Link to post
Share on other sites
ditto toggle3's comment.

Bachanon, I attended an HISD school until Fall 2007, and I got above average with SAT, ACT, and AP tests. Right now I am doing well in university. I did not have to go to a private school because I had access to the good HISD schools.

I agree with the first part of your post, though. I think some people have more "wants" in mind than "needs" when it comes to bonds. I had a good education in HISD, but I am somewhat skeptical of this bond process AND the critics. I would like someone to straighten the details before I decide on how to vote.

Edited by VicMan
Link to post
Share on other sites

As with virtually anything, there are worthwhile AND wasteful projects proposed with this bond election. And, as with anything involving government, you cannot please everyone. So, I'll just point out a few things I think are worth the expenditure, and maybe a few things that are not.

I'll start by saying that Toggle's blanket condemnation and vague accusations mean absolutely nothing. His posts have a sort of "trust me" sound to them, and frankly, his posts make me do a lot of things....however, trust him is not one of them. Be specific, dude.

Likewise, bachanon's "In my day, we walked 5 miles in the snow to school...uphill...both ways!" rant means nothing, especially considering how quick he is to defend the exorbitant tax rates in the Woodlands, just so that they can have nice landscaping. And, given your support of Rudy Giuliani's broken window theory expressed in another thread, your opposition to renovated schools as a tool to discourage vandalism and instill school pride seems at odds with your previous statements.

Given that I believe that ALL school athletics should be run through non-profit organizations like the AAU, Pop Warner, and the National Little League, I am not fond of the $16.6 million proposed to renovate the stadiums. However, given that HISD proposes spending $80 per student on the stadiums, versus $900 per student that Cy-Fair wasted, I guess I will consider myself lucky. It could have been MUCH worse.

Spending $29.2 million to upgrade all science labs in junior and senior high schools is a bargain. In a country that apparently produces scientists and engineers of such poor quality that our auto manufacturers complain that they cannot possibly design cars that achieve fuel efficiency that Toyota's cars ALREADY achieve, maybe $29.2 million is not enough!

I am not overly impressed with spending $90.3 million on security upgrades. The problem is not that I do not think our kids should be safe. The problem is that Americans love to frighten themselves with irrational fears. Far more children are killed being run over by their parents' "safe" SUVs than are ever killed at school, but they keep buying the SUVs, while I get to shell out for a new camera at school. But, I can live with it, I guess. What would you rather have, new cameras, fences and other security measures, or a new football stadium?

As for new schools and renovations, my basic premise is this: We need to keep up our infrastructure. Old schools need to be brought up to standard, and new schools need to be built where overcrowding exists. They do not need to be Taj Mahals, but they should be buildings we can be proud of. And, they should be hurricane proof. I have not seen any proposals to spend the obscene money that Cy-Fair is spending. As for which schools get built where, I don't know. Frankly, neither does bachanon, a Woodlands resident, or musicman, who has no kids. Maybe VicMan knows. He's the only one here who studies that stuff. I'll let the parents fight it out, and if they seem satisfied, I'll vote for it. If they don't, I'll vote No. Seems fair to me.

Well, that's my take on the bond proposal. I notice that the tax rate won't rise, keeping HISD's tax rate the lowext in Houston. I keep my HCAD appraisal in line by protesting, so I'll see a net savings. I look forward to knowledgable comments on the proposal.

Link to post
Share on other sites
As with virtually anything, there are worthwhile AND wasteful projects proposed with this bond election. And, as with anything involving government, you cannot please everyone. So, I'll just point out a few things I think are worth the expenditure, and maybe a few things that are not.

I'll start by saying that Toggle's blanket condemnation and vague accusations mean absolutely nothing. His posts have a sort of "trust me" sound to them, and frankly, his posts make me do a lot of things....however, trust him is not one of them. Be specific, dude.

Likewise, bachanon's "In my day, we walked 5 miles in the snow to school...uphill...both ways!" rant means nothing, especially considering how quick he is to defend the exorbitant tax rates in the Woodlands, just so that they can have nice landscaping. And, given your support of Rudy Giuliani's broken window theory expressed in another thread, your opposition to renovated schools as a tool to discourage vandalism and instill school pride seems at odds with your previous statements.

Given that I believe that ALL school athletics should be run through non-profit organizations like the AAU, Pop Warner, and the National Little League, I am not fond of the $16.6 million proposed to renovate the stadiums. However, given that HISD proposes spending $80 per student on the stadiums, versus $900 per student that Cy-Fair wasted, I guess I will consider myself lucky. It could have been MUCH worse.

Spending $29.2 million to upgrade all science labs in junior and senior high schools is a bargain. In a country that apparently produces scientists and engineers of such poor quality that our auto manufacturers complain that they cannot possibly design cars that achieve fuel efficiency that Toyota's cars ALREADY achieve, maybe $29.2 million is not enough!

I am not overly impressed with spending $90.3 million on security upgrades. The problem is not that I do not think our kids should be safe. The problem is that Americans love to frighten themselves with irrational fears. Far more children are killed being run over by their parents' "safe" SUVs than are ever killed at school, but they keep buying the SUVs, while I get to shell out for a new camera at school. But, I can live with it, I guess. What would you rather have, new cameras, fences and other security measures, or a new football stadium?

As for new schools and renovations, my basic premise is this: We need to keep up our infrastructure. Old schools need to be brought up to standard, and new schools need to be built where overcrowding exists. They do not need to be Taj Mahals, but they should be buildings we can be proud of. And, they should be hurricane proof. I have not seen any proposals to spend the obscene money that Cy-Fair is spending. As for which schools get built where, I don't know. Frankly, neither does bachanon, a Woodlands resident, or musicman, who has no kids. Maybe VicMan knows. He's the only one here who studies that stuff. I'll let the parents fight it out, and if they seem satisfied, I'll vote for it. If they don't, I'll vote No. Seems fair to me.

Well, that's my take on the bond proposal. I notice that the tax rate won't rise, keeping HISD's tax rate the lowext in Houston. I keep my HCAD appraisal in line by protesting, so I'll see a net savings. I look forward to knowledgable comments on the proposal.

i know that when i leave an anecdotal rant, my internal redscare tape plays quietly in my head: "it's anecdotal, it won't hold water.". for the record, i don't believe i've defended the woodlands' taxes, i simply don't mind them or think they are exorbitant. of course, i do not live in an expensive home or spend alot of money. as for the comparison to giuliani's "broken window theory", i see your point; however, a good school does not have to be expensive, nor does it have to be a beauty. clean, safe, in working order, yes. the real source of community pride should be the success of the curriculum and culture.

also, i agree that it should be up to each individual community as to how they want to spend their tax dollars. as a woodlands resident, i have little or no bearing on the matter (an HISD bond proposal). i'm sorry if i took advantage of an opportunity to express that chip on my shoulder. my bad.

back on topic.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Bachanan, we largely agree. I used your quote, along with a few others, to point out some annoying and unhelpful arguments by HISD opponents. For decades, HISD was neglected and used as a whipping boy. The infrastructure was allowed to fall apart as the white flight made its way to the suburbs. Now, as the district tries to bring its facilities back up to snuff, the same tired and vague comments are being made, without substance to back them up. I agree with VicMan that the bond AND the critics make me skeptical. The schools need to serve the students who live here NOW, not the memories of longtime Houstonians who want to keep a half empty school because THEY went there.

As for what HISD has done with previous bond money, I can only look to the schools near me. Reagan HS does not look overdone. They saved the old structure, and added new classrooms, while demolishing the hideous old cafeteria. It is a beautiful school. Same with the elementary school in Woodland Heights. I believe these refurbished schools will help instill pride in the students and parents who use them. Speaking only for myself, I attended a beautiful 80 year old school in North Carolina before moving to Houston. Here, I graduated from that pigsty on Stuebner Airline known as Klein HS. As proud as I am of the first school, I am disgusted by the second. Granted, much of my disgust is a result of the prison-style discipline used at Klein, whereas we had open campuses and "treat 'em like adults" discipline at the other...even during integration...but the school is no source of pride whatsoever.

This attitude toward infrastructure is not confined to our schools. The "No New Taxes" drumbeat invades everything that any government must build. Because the mantra of government waste has become so entrenched, taxpayers believe that we can just cut budgets everywhere and government will magically adjust to build new infrastructure with no money. The bridge in Minneapolis, the steam pipe in NYC, the crappy Texas and Houston roads...all of these things result from a climate of starving government of funds to do what we demand they do.

We get what we pay for. We should look closely at the proposed bond issue. But, those who complain JUST because it is HISD should call the talk radio shows, where unsubstantiated complaints are better appreciated.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I went to Milby and they had AC it just didn't work 95 % of the time, Bond election and that was one of the first things they fixed.

yep that's another problem. i'm for maintenance 100%! the older schools have/had working windows. the newest school i went to had some classrooms that had no windows or only one.

Link to post
Share on other sites
yep that's another problem. i'm for maintenance 100%! the older schools have/had working windows. the newest school i went to had some classrooms that had no windows or only one.

That was one of those brilliant ideas from the 70s. The thought was that windows caused AC bills to go up. Removing windows would lower utility bills. Of course, it also made it impossible to stay in the building if the AC went out, and studies show windowless rooms stifle creativity...not a good school environment.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...

Red Scare claims that we "get what we pay for" but the reality is that HISD sucks up money with no accountability whatsoever.

Get a clue. Look at the evidence. Vicman and Commie can rah-rah-sis-boom-bah all they want for HISD but the facts remain the same: HISD is sub-standard.

Now they want even more taxpayer money. Enough already. Just say no. No wonder there's white flight.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...


×
×
  • Create New...