Harris County Commissioners to vote to raise toll fees

[KatyGuy]

To double the toll from $1.25 to $2.50 during peak hours is a bit extreme. What are these extra funds collected used for?

[musicman]

thread here.

[desirous]

Sounds good. They should toll a few more freeways, and use revenues to pay for utilities improvement and transit investment.

[Scharpe St Guy]

The obvious but not politically correct solution is for a system to be designed that matches license plate info up with current / active insurance records. This would at least on my side of town eliminate a lot of traffic from all those that don't carry insurance, crash into a vehicle and either drive off or run off. If police could scan plates not just for the regular items but also current insurance we could fix traffic and the need for more roads, etc....

Just think less traffic and cheaper insurance.

Scharpe St Guy

[Brak]

How about this for WestPark....

Using the unique number given for your EZ tag.........ending in even or odd number....

Monday Odd number scanned - pay current toll

Even number scanned - pay $5 per gate

Tuesday Even number scanned - pay current toll

Odd number scanned - pay $5 per gate

This would give everyone (rich and poor) over a two week period a chance to use it at 5 days out of 10 at current cost.

If rich people want to use it all the time, well it is only money......

I am sure a simple software change could be done to support this........

[Brak]

How about this for WestPark....

Using the unique number given for your EZ tag.........ending in even or odd number....

Monday Odd number scanned - pay current toll

Even number scanned - pay $5 per gate

Tuesday Even number scanned - pay current toll

Odd number scanned - pay $5 per gate

This would give everyone (rich and poor) over a two week period a chance to use it at 5 days out of 10 at current cost.

If rich people want to use it all the time, well it is only money......

I am sure a simple software change could be done to support this........

[T 2 THA C]

The obvious but not politically correct solution is for a system to be designed that matches license plate info up with current / active insurance records. This would at least on my side of town eliminate a lot of traffic from all those that don't carry insurance, crash into a vehicle and either drive off or run off. If police could scan plates not just for the regular items but also current insurance we could fix traffic and the need for more roads, etc....

Just think less traffic and cheaper insurance.

Scharpe St Guy

The state has in fact passed such a law and are in the process with insurance companies to verify insurance information by the license plates.

SB 1670

[moni]

The state has in fact passed such a law and are in the process with insurance companies to verify insurance information by the license plates.

SB 1670

We have that law in New Mexico and it has helped get unlicensed drivers off the road. People come here from Mexico that never had a driver's license in their lives and certainly never consider insurance. Well, now they do. That law has helped keep the worst off the roads.

[editor]

Back on topic -- There will be an announcement tomorrow (Thursday, June 21) morning about the Westpark Tollway. I don't know if it's related to tolling, or not, but keep your ears open.

[musicman]

Back on topic -- There will be an announcement tomorrow (Thursday, June 21) morning about the Westpark Tollway. I don't know if it's related to tolling, or not, but keep your ears open.

looks like the complaints received are causing the commissioners to reexamine the fee AND the hrs it will be effective. IF they could present rationale for doubling the fee, it would help. saying there's too much traffic isn't rationale enough.

[woolie]

Occasionally I agree with Niche.

When the toll roads were approved and built, (hopefully) no one was naive enough to think the toll would be the same forever. It was built with the understanding that it was a finite resource and the purpose of the toll was to fairly allocate the resource to those who felt it was important enough to pay for. In the situation where the roadway is beyond capacity even with the toll, the built-in mechanism (and only logical solution) is to increase the toll to reduce congestion.

Anyone who constructed their life in any way around access to the tollway at a current price level and congestion is in fact guilty of NIMBYism. It's well demonstrated that NIMBYism is a selfish and indefensible position. It's the assertion that the maintenance of one's own status quo supersedes the property rights of all others. This is the intellectual dishonesty and hypocrisy of NIMBYism: at one moment to claim you are only defending your property rights, while in fact your claim is based on restricting the property rights of others.

Beyond that, personally I've always felt the suburban lifestyle with a 30 mile commute is unsustainable because of land use, gasoline use, carbon dioxide and other emissions, etc. I think it's wasteful. So I have little sympathy for long-distance commuters to begin with. JH Kunstler provides a rhetorically entertaining view of this position.

[Subdude]

looks like the complaints received are causing the commissioners to reexamine the fee AND the hrs it will be effective. IF they could present rationale for doubling the fee, it would help. saying there's too much traffic isn't rationale enough.

The rationale was that it was estimated as a price high enough to deter enough traffic to get back to the targeted level for Westpark. The approach makes sense to me.

[jt16]

I think we're making this a much more complicated issue than it really is. The Harris County Commissioners view toll roads as a business venture. They're positioning themselves for a big payday when they sellout a 50 year road monopoly to Goldman Sachs for $10B. The Commissioners have forgotten who they work for. They are supposed to represent the hardworking taxpayers in Harris County.

When will we see commuter rail? Probably not for a long time. There's too much money in the business of forcing commuters on to a fee driven roadway.

[TheNiche]

I think we're making this a much more complicated issue than it really is. The Harris County Commissioners view toll roads as a business venture. They're positioning themselves for a big payday when they sellout a 50 year road monopoly to Goldman Sachs for $10B. The Commissioners have forgotten who they work for. They are supposed to represent the hardworking taxpayers in Harris County.

If they sold out the toll road system in exchange for a butt-load of cash, what do you think happens to the cash? Does it just sit there, depreciating in value at the rate of inflation? Do the n^th generation of Commissioners embezzle it, as surely was the plan all along? What?

When will we see commuter rail? Probably not for a long time. There's too much money in the business of forcing commuters on to a fee driven roadway.

The County and METRO are two seperate organizations. They act independently of one another although admittedly each of their actions have repercussions on the other. ...and with that in mind, if commuters are willing to pay for toll road infrastructure WILLFULLY, whereas METRO has to susidize (or in essence, pay commuters to use) infrastructure, doesn't that say something about which is the preferred mode of travel? You are correct that we will probably not see commuter rail for a long time, but that has more to do with a successful P&R system and the acquisition of trackage rights from UP and BNSF than it does with the County or HCTRA vetoing anything.

[musicman]

The rationale was that it was estimated as a price high enough to deter enough traffic to get back to the targeted level for Westpark. The approach makes sense to me.

rationale of "a price high enough to deter enough traffic" would not be thought of highly for those i know in the budget world. in the morning the area of concern is between the old westheimer and fondren while in the afternoon it is from the beltway to eldridge. if these are the main areas of congestion then here specifically is where the fees should be raised and the other areas where traffic isn't going over their allotted 3600 vehicles, then consideration should be given raising it $.25 as is being done on the other toll roads. if there's no problem in certain areas then why would they generically raise it more than $.25 which would take away riders on areas that aren't congested?

[TheNiche]

rationale of "a price high enough to deter enough traffic" would not be thought of highly for those i know in the budget world. in the morning the area of concern is between the old westheimer and fondren while in the afternoon it is from the beltway to eldridge. if these are the main areas of congestion then here specifically is where the fees should be raised and the other areas where traffic isn't going over their allotted 3600 vehicles, then consideration should be given raising it $.25 as is being done on the other toll roads. if there's no problem in certain areas then why would they generically raise it more than $.25 which would take away riders on areas that aren't congested?

Fair point.

[KinkaidAlum]

If they sold out the toll road system in exchange for a butt-load of cash, what do you think happens to the cash? Does it just sit there, depreciating in value at the rate of inflation? Do the n^th generation of Commissioners embezzle it, as surely was the plan all along? What?

The County and METRO are two seperate organizations. They act independently of one another although admittedly each of their actions have repercussions on the other. ...and with that in mind, if commuters are willing to pay for toll road infrastructure WILLFULLY, whereas METRO has to susidize (or in essence, pay commuters to use) infrastructure, doesn't that say something about which is the preferred mode of travel? You are correct that we will probably not see commuter rail for a long time, but that has more to do with a successful P&R system and the acquisition of trackage rights from UP and BNSF than it does with the County or HCTRA vetoing anything.

Uh, where in this latest fight did you stumble upon the idea that commuters are willing "to pay for toll road infrastructure WILLFULLY?" Have you been following this story? People are OUTRAGED by the proposed toll increase. I don't see anyone saying, "hey, I prefer to drive my single occupancy car even if it will cost up to $2,300 a year to do so on this road." To take away from this mess the idea that toll roads are more popular than rail/bus options is pretty damn stupid.

The fact of the matter is that people are not realistic. They want things like commuter rail, unclogged freeways and toll roads, high quality schools, green space, etc... but they don't want a state income tax, they don't like property taxes, they don't like school taxes, they are generally opposed to bond elections, and they hate the idea of paying increased tolls.

Where is Santa when we need him?

[westguy]

When the toll roads were approved and built, (hopefully) no one was naive enough to think the toll would be the same forever. It was built with the understanding that it was a finite resource and the purpose of the toll was to fairly allocate the resource to those who felt it was important enough to pay for. In the situation where the roadway is beyond capacity even with the toll, the built-in mechanism (and only logical solution) is to increase the toll to reduce congestion.

The original segment of WPT was to extend to Hwy 6 and remain in Harris County. Later in the design they added extensions to 1464 and the Grand Parkway, where, presumably, it would have access to lots of developable land. As of 2005 they were working on extending the road to Fulshear. I don't think they had higher tolls in mind, but who knows what goes through those peoples' heads? Had they kept the original configuration, the tollway traffic would've grown more steadily and improved parts of SW Houston that still lacked a controlled-access road. The planners clearly overextended this to a bunch of worthless farmland that will now be divided into tiny lots and sold as "luxury" homes. I think it is too expensive for SW Houston drivers, so it is becoming a people mover from the suburbs to 610.

North-south and East-west corridors with potential are in scarce supply, and it is unfortunate we have HCTRA and FBCTRA controlling this. The only way to aquire enough land for more roads is through another smash-and-grab a la I-45 and I-10. I don't think TxDOT is much better because they wasted a lot of valuable real estate building a tollroad down the Katy Freeway.

It these are the main areas of congestion then here specifically is where the fees should be raised and the other areas where traffic isn't going over their allotted 3600 vehicles

That is due to poor design rather than traffic on the tollway. Those areas are literally impossible to exit at rush hour because there is too much traffic coming along Fondren and OW.

[jt16]

If they sold out the toll road system in exchange for a butt-load of cash, what do you think happens to the cash? Does it just sit there, depreciating in value at the rate of inflation? Do the n^th generation of Commissioners embezzle it, as surely was the plan all along? What?

The County and METRO are two seperate organizations. They act independently of one another although admittedly each of their actions have repercussions on the other. ...and with that in mind, if commuters are willing to pay for toll road infrastructure WILLFULLY, whereas METRO has to susidize (or in essence, pay commuters to use) infrastructure, doesn't that say something about which is the preferred mode of travel? You are correct that we will probably not see commuter rail for a long time, but that has more to do with a successful P&R system and the acquisition of trackage rights from UP and BNSF than it does with the County or HCTRA vetoing anything.

Off The Kuff

"Harris County is casting its eye on five additional corridors to study for potential commuter rail lines.

Commissioners Court is expected next Tuesday to tell the county's Public Infrastructure Department to begin negotiations with a consultant to conduct a preliminary study of existing freight lines along Texas 3, Mykawa Road, FM 521, Hardy Road and U.S. 59 North.

The consultant, DMJM+Harris, already has performed a preliminary assessment of potential commuter rail corridors along U.S. 290, Texas 249 and U.S. 90A.

That study, completed last December, concluded that by using existing freight lines, the county could get more than 80 miles of commuter rail in northwest Harris County at a cost of about $295 million, or about $3.5 million per mile.

Since then, Eckels and Commissioners Court have said they wanted to look at other potential corridors. Eckels and Commissioner Steve Radack have championed the idea of commuter rail, arguing that it would be cheaper to implement than the Metropolitan Transit Authority's $5.8 billion rail plan.

Eckels, who could not be reached for comment Friday, has said he believes the county could have as much as 100 miles of commuter rail within five years."

This was originally printed in the Chronicle, but the article is no longer on the page. Commuter rail is most definitely a county inititiative. But I do agree, commuters do pay willfully for toll roads.

And you obviously have more faith in your elected officials to do the proper thing with billions of dollars in cash than I do. I never implied anybody would embezzle money. You made that on your own. But there are other, more legal ways for politicos to squander taxpayer money.

[TheNiche]

Uh, where in this latest fight did you stumble upon the idea that commuters are willing "to pay for toll road infrastructure WILLFULLY?" Have you been following this story? People are OUTRAGED by the proposed toll increase. I don't see anyone saying, "hey, I prefer to drive my single occupancy car even if it will cost up to $2,300 a year to do so on this road." To take away from this mess the idea that toll roads are more popular than rail/bus options is pretty damn stupid.

Yeah, people get mad about a lot of things. [shrug] Actions speak louder than words.

Frankly, I think that you answered your own question:

The fact of the matter is that people are not realistic.

[GovernorAggie]

Wow, I can't believe how many people are outraged about this. Welcome to the future, folks. Every toll facility will have some sort of congestion pricing built in from now on. Hempstead Tollway will not be a tollway a la the Belt. Look at the 290 document...they're called "managed lanes" which means they "manage" the congestion to keep traffic flowing at a certain LOS and a certain speed. That means the Hempstead Tollway (an EZ Tag only facility once built) will have adjustable tolls.

We just got an earlier than we were supposed to. Somehow the Katy Tollway hasn't made it into this discussion so I'll bring it up--it will be a "managed" facility as well, and I seem to remember hearing some time back that the cap on the tolls for Katy Tollway have been set at $6 at the most. Westpark will seem like a bargain at $2.50 or even $4.00 once traffic on the new KT Frwy causes HCTRA to raise the toll on the managed lanes to $6.

One project they failed to mention that the tolls will pay for is the Grand Parkway--eventually. It's not in the paper because HCTRA doesn't have to tell us anything if they don't want to (no environmental process, remember Niche?)

I see these tolls to be like the gas prices. People will whine about the sticker shock, but they'll adjust. Even in 20 yrs. when Westpark's toll is at least $5.

[jt16]

Yeah, people get mad about a lot of things. [shrug] Actions speak louder than words.

Frankly, I think that you answered your own question:

County commissioners are elected to 4 year terms. With this kind of outrage, there will be action eventually. Why do you see the commissioners scrambling to justify their actions less than 24 hours after a vote?

[MidtownCoog]

Niche is a bit oblivious to reality.

The star of this zoo crew, County Judge Ed Emmett, wants to run for Co. Commissioner. He's been raising money for ove a year.

The headline says it all: County to take another look at doubling fees.

[TheNiche]

This was originally printed in the Chronicle, but the article is no longer on the page. Commuter rail is most definitely a county inititiative. But I do agree, commuters do pay willfully for toll roads.

And you obviously have more faith in your elected officials to do the proper thing with billions of dollars in cash than I do. I never implied anybody would embezzle money. You made that on your own. But there are other, more legal ways for politicos to squander taxpayer money.

Interesting reading, there...but it seemed to indicate that the County may try to implement something other than the METRO Solutions plan which was approved by voters. This could get...interesting. I'm not sure how this might play out.

No, you never did imply embezzlement, but that's one of the very few ways in which all the proceeds from the sale of a toll road system could just disappear and not come back around to benefit the citizens of Harris County in some form or another. That's not to say that they won't make some bad decisions in allocating such proceeds, but hey, cash assets and infrastructure assets can each be mismanaged. The only way to avoid government waste is not to have government involvement in the first place; I'd be OK with privately-funded toll roads built from scratch, but then we come right back to the basis for your initial complaint.

[TheNiche]

County commissioners are elected to 4 year terms. With this kind of outrage, there will be action eventually. Why do you see the commissioners scrambling to justify their actions less than 24 hours after a vote?

Because its been a PR fiasco rooting from poor communications and highly vocal (if not always rational) constituents. ...that doesn't necessarily mean that it is a bad decision.

[westguy]

Nothing was ever to come from the commuter rail study. They announced it just as the transit-expansion referendum was gaining momentum. We all knew where Eckels and the Commissioners Court stood on rail. There would be no follow-through for any plan they proposed.

[Porchman]

Folded! Judge Emmett announced they're not going to double the Westpark tolls, but the 25 cent hike stays.

[MidtownCoog]

Too funny.

Niche may poo-poo the "highly vocal constituents", but when the benefit of the hike was to "get the poor people off the toll roards" you can always expect a revolt.

[musicman]

Folded! Judge Emmett announced they're not going to double the Westpark tolls, but the 25 cent hike stays.

County Judge Ed Emmett announced today that the county will not double fees during peak hours on the Westpark Tollway, backing off a decision made two days earlier that was assailed by many tollway drivers and area residents.

"We will cancel the Westpark (peak-hours) increase," he said.

Member of Commissioners Court, especially Commissioner Steve Radack, have received phone calls and e-mails since Tuesday from residents criticizing the decision to raise Westpark fees from $1 to $2.50 per transaction in September.

Rescinding Tuesday's unanimous vote by the court "was certainly influenced by the public's reaction," Emmett said.

i think this is a wimp response and just as bad as doubling the fee. If there's a good reason to raise it more (and there is supposedly) justify it to the constituents!

[T 2 THA C]

Anyone with a brain already takes the HOV or a Park and Ride bus downtown from the burbs.

The daily drivers are the exception.

Agreed, I have to say that the trade off of better schools & lower crime is worth the wait in traffic, not to mention worth the toll. Especially when you can take P&R or carpool. The $2.50 is justified by me just by saving my time. I want a Bentley also, but I can not afford it.