Harris County Commissioners to vote to raise toll fees

[musicman]

ch 13 news just reported that Harris County will vote tomorrow to raise toll road fees and if passed, will be enacted in the next 60 to 90 days. The story mentioned that the westpark tollway round trip could go from $6 to $12. I"m sure we'll all hear more about this.

Edited June 19, 2007 by musicman

[Houstonian in Iraq]

ch 13 news just reported that Harris County will vote tomorrow to raise toll road fees and if passed, will be enacted in the next 60 to 90 days. The story mentioned that the westpark tollway round trip could go from $6 to $12. I"m sure we'll all hear more about this.

That sucks. I never drive on Westpark so it doesn't affect me.

What about the other roads? If I paid I would really be ticked off.

Is it greed? Or is it an actual just reason for the hike?

[musicman]

That sucks. I never drive on Westpark so it doesn't affect me.

What about the other roads? If I paid I would really be ticked off.

Is it greed? Or is it an actual just reason for the hike?

fees will be raised on all of them. i think they specifically mentioned westpark because it was going up quite a bit at peak times. i think the minimum increase will be at least $.25

[Houstonian in Iraq]

Anyone want to buy a slightly used spare military ID so thay can ride for free?

Kidding I could never do that

[CDeb]

At a higher price, less people will use the toll roads, meaning traffic will actually move on them, providing a time savings for the price that people pay to use them.

[KatieDidIt]

Whew. Hubby is already paying about 130 a month on tolls already, Beltwaying around to the West side of town. Another reason I'm glad to move back to H-Town.

This is going to kill I-45. A 100 increase for most commuters will force them to use un- tolled roads therefore revenue will be LOST.

Yeah, its greed.

[musicman]

Whew. Hubby is already paying about 130 a month on tolls already, Beltwaying around to the West side of town. Another reason I'm glad to move back to H-Town.

This is going to kill I-45. A 100 increase for most commuters will force them to use un- tolled roads therefore revenue will be LOST.

Yeah, its greed.

the 100% increase on the westpark is supposedly isolated because of traffic numbers like CDeb mentioned. they said the minimum would be $.25/tollbooth

Edited June 19, 2007 by musicman

[TheNiche]

Is it greed? Or is it an actual just reason for the hike?

Depends where the money goes. If the commissioners' salaries don't change and they aren't getting kickbacks from whereever the money is spent, then no. It isn't greed. Frankly, if all they do is use the money to build more toll roads and increase capacity, that'd be ideal.

[RedScare]

So, a nice air conditioned 30 mile commute from Sugar Land will cost $15 roundtrip (including FB toll) in tolls and $12 in gas, plus $8 in parking fees downtown, for a total of $35...over the course of a month (22 work days) that comes to a sweet $770.

Man, you really gotta love those leather seats in your Suburban to pay that.

[TheNiche]

So, a nice air conditioned 30 mile commute from Sugar Land will cost $15 roundtrip (including FB toll) in tolls and $12 in gas, plus $8 in parking fees downtown, for a total of $35...over the course of a month (22 work days) that comes to a sweet $770.

Man, you really gotta love those leather seats in your Suburban to pay that.

...ether that or you REALLY gotta love those leather seats NOT to pay it, and just take the feeder.

[westguy76]

So, a nice air conditioned 30 mile commute from Sugar Land will cost $15 roundtrip (including FB toll) in tolls and $12 in gas, plus $8 in parking fees downtown, for a total of $35...over the course of a month (22 work days) that comes to a sweet $770.

Man, you really gotta love those leather seats in your Suburban to pay that.

And you need to get your gasoline leak fixed if you are getting that kind of gas mileage.

[MidtownCoog]

Anyone with a brain already takes the HOV or a Park and Ride bus downtown from the burbs.

The daily drivers are the exception.

[ssullivan]

I don't have a lot of sympathy for daily commuters who chose to live way out in the suburbs and work downtown (or anywhere else in the center of the city). It was your choice to live 25-30 miles from where you work, and nobody promised you gas would be cheap, that there would be no traffic, and that tolls would never go up. There are tradeoffs for everything, and while I realize that housing in the suburbs is cheaper and schools are often better, the tradeoff is a longer, more expensive commute. You can't have it both ways, unless you're willing to do something like carpool and get in the HOV lane, or take a Metro Park and Ride. Of course, for the people in Ft. Bend County, Metro isn't much help since most of that area has repeatedly opted to not be part of Metro's service area.

[Chris]

Yeah, I just heard about it on 13 Eyewitness News at 11 also. I think it is rediculous. Was it a rumor that part of SH 249 was being converted to a tollway?

[musicman]

Yeah, I just heard about it on 13 Eyewitness News at 11 also. I think it is rediculous. Was it a rumor that part of SH 249 was being converted to a tollway?

i had heard something that they were thinking about it to help pay for it to be extended. rumor though.

[VelvetJ]

Just heard it has unanimously passed.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong. The Westpark Tollway, QUICKLY became congested as some predicted. The answer to relieving traffic on the tollways is to continuously increase the toll fees until the desired congestion level is reached? Then repeat this action if it happens again?

[musicman]

Just heard it has unanimously passed.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong. The Westpark Tollway, QUICKLY became congested as some predicted. The answer to relieving traffic on the tollways is to continuously increase the toll fees until the desired congestion level is reached? Then repeat this action if it happens again?

one temporary, albeit long problem, is the construction on i-10 which caused some commuters to use the westpark tollway instead. the i-10 construction is why it was finished so quickly in the first place. as i-10 opens, more relief should be provided as people move back to i-10 which will have hov and toll managed lanes. FYI, evidently the gulf freeway is next for toll managed lanes according to a report i heard 2 days ago.

Edited June 19, 2007 by musicman

[VelvetJ]

one temporary, albeit long problem, is the construction on i-10 which caused some commuters to use the westpark tollway instead. the i-10 construction is why it was finished so quickly in the first place. as i-10 opens, more relief should be provided as people move back to i-10 which will have hov and toll managed lanes. FYI, evidently the gulf freeway is next for toll managed lanes according to a report i heard 2 days ago.

Thanks for addressing the Westpark situation.

Now what about other portions of the tollway system? Are my previous questions on target with regard to how tollway congestion is relieved?

[musicman]

Thanks for addressing the Westpark situation.

Now what about other portions of the tollway system? Are my previous questions on target with regard to how tollway congestion is relieved?

they plan to expand most freeways into at least partial tolls. 290 45n, etc. the story just said that the gulf freeway was the next to be addressed.

tollway relief is usually brought by increasing fares, which lessens the number of users. with the recent state proposal to change eminent domain rights, toll roads all over the state were worried because they felt it would limit their growth by defining what "public use" of property really is. i'll bet most lobbied the governor so he would veto it as he did.

Edited June 19, 2007 by musicman

[EatSleepMOD]

i had heard something that they were thinking about it to help pay for it to be extended. rumor though.

I just moved back to the southeast side from Tomball. In 2006,

TXDOT and HCTRA had meetings in Tomball with citizens on various dates

about the obvious expansion of SH 249, as well as

making parts of it a toll road.

http://www.txdot.gov/news/candidate_toll_projects.pdf

http://www.txdot.gov/news/candidate_toll_projects.pdf

[pestofan]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metrop...an/4902488.html

County Commissioner Steve ("Marie Antoinette") Radack said those who cannot afford the rush hour fees should use alternate roads.

"Let them go down Richmond Road," he said.

Edited June 19, 2007 by pestofan

[VelvetJ]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metrop...an/4902488.html

County Commissioner Steve ("Marie Antoinette") Radack said those who cannot afford the rush hour fees should use alternate roads.

"Let them go down Richmond Road," he said.

So who should be allowed to use the toll roads? Only the wealthy?

Increase the toll fee to increase revenue to build more toll roads which will bring in more revenue?

[MidtownCoog]

I can see it now:

"When visting Houston, be sure to avoid the "poor roads". Not poor in quality per se, just filled to capacity with poor dumb bastards who can't afford the toll."

Everybody follow the dancing ball and sing along, now:

"Oh ye'll take the poor road and I'll take the rich road, An' I'll be to work before ye', ... "

Edited June 19, 2007 by MidtownCoog

[TheNiche]

So who should be allowed to use the toll roads? Only the wealthy?

No, just anyone willing to pay for the road they use.

Increase the toll fee to increase revenue to build more toll roads which will bring in more revenue?

That's exactly right. We should keep increasing prices and building more toll roads and added capacity until there is insufficient revenue (at any toll rate) to cover further expansion.

[N Judah]

Yep...Fulshear's going upscale. I knew it.

[westguy]

one temporary, albeit long problem, is the construction on i-10 which caused some commuters to use the westpark tollway instead. the i-10 construction is why it was finished so quickly in the first place. as i-10 opens, more relief should be provided as people move back to i-10 which will have hov and toll managed lanes. FYI, evidently the gulf freeway is next for toll managed lanes according to a report i heard 2 days ago.

The traffic increase should've been more gradual, but congestion jumped markedly after August 2005. Therefore it would make sense for FBCTRA to raise their rates, since they are the ones feeding the mess. Maybe people are trying to avoid construction mess on I-10, but press releases like this do not give me much hope.

That's exactly right. We should keep increasing prices and building more toll roads and added capacity until there is insufficient revenue (at any toll rate) to cover further expansion.

That's just a dumb idea.

Edited June 19, 2007 by westguy

[TheNiche]

That's just a dumb idea.

Care to explain why? I'm not proposing that we stop using any state or federal monies that come our way for free-access transportation projects either, btw.

[Pumapayam]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metrop...an/4902488.html

County Commissioner Steve ("Marie Antoinette") Radack said those who cannot afford the rush hour fees should use alternate roads.

"Let them go down Richmond Road," he said.

I will if he is standing in the middle of the street.

Who votes for these things, and how much are THEY being compensated!

tollway relief is usually brought by increasing fares, which lessens the number of users. with the recent state proposal to change eminent domain rights, toll roads all over the state were worried because they felt it would limit their growth by defining what "public use" of property really is. i'll bet most lobbied the governor so he would veto it as he did.

They will just go back to Richmond Ave. The same number of people have to go from point A to point B.

What bastards we have in office.

[Subdude]

People are angry (from the Chronicle)

As Westpark tolls rise, so do tempers

Drivers up in arms after officials double the fee at peak hours to ease congestion

By BILL MURPHY

Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

Harris County Commissioners Court's decision Tuesday to fight congestion on the three-year-old Westpark Tollway by forcing some drivers off the road with higher rush-hour fees drew the ire of cash-strapped commuters.

And a dismissive response from Commissioner Steve Radack

[musicman]

People are angry (from the Chronicle)

just about every talk show this morning had this as the topic too. it would be interesting to see what rationale they used for doubling the cost vs. raising it less.

[KatyGuy]

To double the toll from $1.25 to $2.50 during peak hours is a bit extreme. What are these extra funds collected used for?

[musicman]

thread here.

[desirous]

Sounds good. They should toll a few more freeways, and use revenues to pay for utilities improvement and transit investment.

[Scharpe St Guy]

The obvious but not politically correct solution is for a system to be designed that matches license plate info up with current / active insurance records. This would at least on my side of town eliminate a lot of traffic from all those that don't carry insurance, crash into a vehicle and either drive off or run off. If police could scan plates not just for the regular items but also current insurance we could fix traffic and the need for more roads, etc....

Just think less traffic and cheaper insurance.

Scharpe St Guy

[Brak]

How about this for WestPark....

Using the unique number given for your EZ tag.........ending in even or odd number....

Monday Odd number scanned - pay current toll

Even number scanned - pay $5 per gate

Tuesday Even number scanned - pay current toll

Odd number scanned - pay $5 per gate

This would give everyone (rich and poor) over a two week period a chance to use it at 5 days out of 10 at current cost.

If rich people want to use it all the time, well it is only money......

I am sure a simple software change could be done to support this........

[Brak]

How about this for WestPark....

Using the unique number given for your EZ tag.........ending in even or odd number....

Monday Odd number scanned - pay current toll

Even number scanned - pay $5 per gate

Tuesday Even number scanned - pay current toll

Odd number scanned - pay $5 per gate

This would give everyone (rich and poor) over a two week period a chance to use it at 5 days out of 10 at current cost.

If rich people want to use it all the time, well it is only money......

I am sure a simple software change could be done to support this........

[T 2 THA C]

The obvious but not politically correct solution is for a system to be designed that matches license plate info up with current / active insurance records. This would at least on my side of town eliminate a lot of traffic from all those that don't carry insurance, crash into a vehicle and either drive off or run off. If police could scan plates not just for the regular items but also current insurance we could fix traffic and the need for more roads, etc....

Just think less traffic and cheaper insurance.

Scharpe St Guy

The state has in fact passed such a law and are in the process with insurance companies to verify insurance information by the license plates.

SB 1670

Edited June 21, 2007 by T 2 THA C

[moni]

The state has in fact passed such a law and are in the process with insurance companies to verify insurance information by the license plates.

SB 1670

We have that law in New Mexico and it has helped get unlicensed drivers off the road. People come here from Mexico that never had a driver's license in their lives and certainly never consider insurance. Well, now they do. That law has helped keep the worst off the roads.

[editor]

Back on topic -- There will be an announcement tomorrow (Thursday, June 21) morning about the Westpark Tollway. I don't know if it's related to tolling, or not, but keep your ears open.

[musicman]

Back on topic -- There will be an announcement tomorrow (Thursday, June 21) morning about the Westpark Tollway. I don't know if it's related to tolling, or not, but keep your ears open.

looks like the complaints received are causing the commissioners to reexamine the fee AND the hrs it will be effective. IF they could present rationale for doubling the fee, it would help. saying there's too much traffic isn't rationale enough.

Edited June 21, 2007 by musicman

[woolie]

Occasionally I agree with Niche.

When the toll roads were approved and built, (hopefully) no one was naive enough to think the toll would be the same forever. It was built with the understanding that it was a finite resource and the purpose of the toll was to fairly allocate the resource to those who felt it was important enough to pay for. In the situation where the roadway is beyond capacity even with the toll, the built-in mechanism (and only logical solution) is to increase the toll to reduce congestion.

Anyone who constructed their life in any way around access to the tollway at a current price level and congestion is in fact guilty of NIMBYism. It's well demonstrated that NIMBYism is a selfish and indefensible position. It's the assertion that the maintenance of one's own status quo supersedes the property rights of all others. This is the intellectual dishonesty and hypocrisy of NIMBYism: at one moment to claim you are only defending your property rights, while in fact your claim is based on restricting the property rights of others.

Beyond that, personally I've always felt the suburban lifestyle with a 30 mile commute is unsustainable because of land use, gasoline use, carbon dioxide and other emissions, etc. I think it's wasteful. So I have little sympathy for long-distance commuters to begin with. JH Kunstler provides a rhetorically entertaining view of this position.

[Subdude]

looks like the complaints received are causing the commissioners to reexamine the fee AND the hrs it will be effective. IF they could present rationale for doubling the fee, it would help. saying there's too much traffic isn't rationale enough.

The rationale was that it was estimated as a price high enough to deter enough traffic to get back to the targeted level for Westpark. The approach makes sense to me.

[jt16]

I think we're making this a much more complicated issue than it really is. The Harris County Commissioners view toll roads as a business venture. They're positioning themselves for a big payday when they sellout a 50 year road monopoly to Goldman Sachs for $10B. The Commissioners have forgotten who they work for. They are supposed to represent the hardworking taxpayers in Harris County.

When will we see commuter rail? Probably not for a long time. There's too much money in the business of forcing commuters on to a fee driven roadway.

[TheNiche]

I think we're making this a much more complicated issue than it really is. The Harris County Commissioners view toll roads as a business venture. They're positioning themselves for a big payday when they sellout a 50 year road monopoly to Goldman Sachs for $10B. The Commissioners have forgotten who they work for. They are supposed to represent the hardworking taxpayers in Harris County.

If they sold out the toll road system in exchange for a butt-load of cash, what do you think happens to the cash? Does it just sit there, depreciating in value at the rate of inflation? Do the n^th generation of Commissioners embezzle it, as surely was the plan all along? What?

When will we see commuter rail? Probably not for a long time. There's too much money in the business of forcing commuters on to a fee driven roadway.

The County and METRO are two seperate organizations. They act independently of one another although admittedly each of their actions have repercussions on the other. ...and with that in mind, if commuters are willing to pay for toll road infrastructure WILLFULLY, whereas METRO has to susidize (or in essence, pay commuters to use) infrastructure, doesn't that say something about which is the preferred mode of travel? You are correct that we will probably not see commuter rail for a long time, but that has more to do with a successful P&R system and the acquisition of trackage rights from UP and BNSF than it does with the County or HCTRA vetoing anything.

[musicman]

The rationale was that it was estimated as a price high enough to deter enough traffic to get back to the targeted level for Westpark. The approach makes sense to me.

rationale of "a price high enough to deter enough traffic" would not be thought of highly for those i know in the budget world. in the morning the area of concern is between the old westheimer and fondren while in the afternoon it is from the beltway to eldridge. if these are the main areas of congestion then here specifically is where the fees should be raised and the other areas where traffic isn't going over their allotted 3600 vehicles, then consideration should be given raising it $.25 as is being done on the other toll roads. if there's no problem in certain areas then why would they generically raise it more than $.25 which would take away riders on areas that aren't congested?

[TheNiche]

rationale of "a price high enough to deter enough traffic" would not be thought of highly for those i know in the budget world. in the morning the area of concern is between the old westheimer and fondren while in the afternoon it is from the beltway to eldridge. if these are the main areas of congestion then here specifically is where the fees should be raised and the other areas where traffic isn't going over their allotted 3600 vehicles, then consideration should be given raising it $.25 as is being done on the other toll roads. if there's no problem in certain areas then why would they generically raise it more than $.25 which would take away riders on areas that aren't congested?

Fair point.

[KinkaidAlum]

If they sold out the toll road system in exchange for a butt-load of cash, what do you think happens to the cash? Does it just sit there, depreciating in value at the rate of inflation? Do the n^th generation of Commissioners embezzle it, as surely was the plan all along? What?

The County and METRO are two seperate organizations. They act independently of one another although admittedly each of their actions have repercussions on the other. ...and with that in mind, if commuters are willing to pay for toll road infrastructure WILLFULLY, whereas METRO has to susidize (or in essence, pay commuters to use) infrastructure, doesn't that say something about which is the preferred mode of travel? You are correct that we will probably not see commuter rail for a long time, but that has more to do with a successful P&R system and the acquisition of trackage rights from UP and BNSF than it does with the County or HCTRA vetoing anything.

Uh, where in this latest fight did you stumble upon the idea that commuters are willing "to pay for toll road infrastructure WILLFULLY?" Have you been following this story? People are OUTRAGED by the proposed toll increase. I don't see anyone saying, "hey, I prefer to drive my single occupancy car even if it will cost up to $2,300 a year to do so on this road." To take away from this mess the idea that toll roads are more popular than rail/bus options is pretty damn stupid.

The fact of the matter is that people are not realistic. They want things like commuter rail, unclogged freeways and toll roads, high quality schools, green space, etc... but they don't want a state income tax, they don't like property taxes, they don't like school taxes, they are generally opposed to bond elections, and they hate the idea of paying increased tolls.

Where is Santa when we need him?

[westguy]

When the toll roads were approved and built, (hopefully) no one was naive enough to think the toll would be the same forever. It was built with the understanding that it was a finite resource and the purpose of the toll was to fairly allocate the resource to those who felt it was important enough to pay for. In the situation where the roadway is beyond capacity even with the toll, the built-in mechanism (and only logical solution) is to increase the toll to reduce congestion.

The original segment of WPT was to extend to Hwy 6 and remain in Harris County. Later in the design they added extensions to 1464 and the Grand Parkway, where, presumably, it would have access to lots of developable land. As of 2005 they were working on extending the road to Fulshear. I don't think they had higher tolls in mind, but who knows what goes through those peoples' heads? Had they kept the original configuration, the tollway traffic would've grown more steadily and improved parts of SW Houston that still lacked a controlled-access road. The planners clearly overextended this to a bunch of worthless farmland that will now be divided into tiny lots and sold as "luxury" homes. I think it is too expensive for SW Houston drivers, so it is becoming a people mover from the suburbs to 610.

North-south and East-west corridors with potential are in scarce supply, and it is unfortunate we have HCTRA and FBCTRA controlling this. The only way to aquire enough land for more roads is through another smash-and-grab a la I-45 and I-10. I don't think TxDOT is much better because they wasted a lot of valuable real estate building a tollroad down the Katy Freeway.

It these are the main areas of congestion then here specifically is where the fees should be raised and the other areas where traffic isn't going over their allotted 3600 vehicles

That is due to poor design rather than traffic on the tollway. Those areas are literally impossible to exit at rush hour because there is too much traffic coming along Fondren and OW.

Edited June 21, 2007 by westguy

[jt16]

If they sold out the toll road system in exchange for a butt-load of cash, what do you think happens to the cash? Does it just sit there, depreciating in value at the rate of inflation? Do the n^th generation of Commissioners embezzle it, as surely was the plan all along? What?

The County and METRO are two seperate organizations. They act independently of one another although admittedly each of their actions have repercussions on the other. ...and with that in mind, if commuters are willing to pay for toll road infrastructure WILLFULLY, whereas METRO has to susidize (or in essence, pay commuters to use) infrastructure, doesn't that say something about which is the preferred mode of travel? You are correct that we will probably not see commuter rail for a long time, but that has more to do with a successful P&R system and the acquisition of trackage rights from UP and BNSF than it does with the County or HCTRA vetoing anything.

Off The Kuff

"Harris County is casting its eye on five additional corridors to study for potential commuter rail lines.

Commissioners Court is expected next Tuesday to tell the county's Public Infrastructure Department to begin negotiations with a consultant to conduct a preliminary study of existing freight lines along Texas 3, Mykawa Road, FM 521, Hardy Road and U.S. 59 North.

The consultant, DMJM+Harris, already has performed a preliminary assessment of potential commuter rail corridors along U.S. 290, Texas 249 and U.S. 90A.

That study, completed last December, concluded that by using existing freight lines, the county could get more than 80 miles of commuter rail in northwest Harris County at a cost of about $295 million, or about $3.5 million per mile.

Since then, Eckels and Commissioners Court have said they wanted to look at other potential corridors. Eckels and Commissioner Steve Radack have championed the idea of commuter rail, arguing that it would be cheaper to implement than the Metropolitan Transit Authority's $5.8 billion rail plan.

Eckels, who could not be reached for comment Friday, has said he believes the county could have as much as 100 miles of commuter rail within five years."

This was originally printed in the Chronicle, but the article is no longer on the page. Commuter rail is most definitely a county inititiative. But I do agree, commuters do pay willfully for toll roads.

And you obviously have more faith in your elected officials to do the proper thing with billions of dollars in cash than I do. I never implied anybody would embezzle money. You made that on your own. But there are other, more legal ways for politicos to squander taxpayer money.

[TheNiche]

Uh, where in this latest fight did you stumble upon the idea that commuters are willing "to pay for toll road infrastructure WILLFULLY?" Have you been following this story? People are OUTRAGED by the proposed toll increase. I don't see anyone saying, "hey, I prefer to drive my single occupancy car even if it will cost up to $2,300 a year to do so on this road." To take away from this mess the idea that toll roads are more popular than rail/bus options is pretty damn stupid.

Yeah, people get mad about a lot of things. [shrug] Actions speak louder than words.

Frankly, I think that you answered your own question:

The fact of the matter is that people are not realistic.