800 Bell St. (Former Exxon Building) Conversion to Residential

[Houston19514]

15 minutes ago, tigereye said:

Anyone know what’s up with the Municipal Courts (Lubbock)? I thought there was a plan for the city to relocate municipal to 800 Bell and sell the land on Lubbock? 

Not really a "plan".  It was little more than an idea that was floated and pretty quickly dropped for cost and other reasons.  It seems the Municipal Courts/police project got put on a very back burner after the City got hit by Harvey and then COVID.  

Edited June 23, 2021 by Houston19514

[cougarpad]

So basically with all the comments in the above thread would it be more cost effective to just implode the building and start from scratch to build something more to spec of what a client wants? I so wish that the City of Houston would just order that the Holiday Inn building is not up to code enough for purchase and remodel and have the thing imploded. This is city government and when they want something done they usually can find loops holes and ways to get it done. At least get one of the empty buildings that is an eyesore out of the way. As far as the old Exon building, there are options it just needs someone to take action.

[thatguysly]

It costs millions to demo so it'll just sit there until someone figures they can recoup the costs with a new development on top of the demo costs. They already complain the margins are thin. It is the same reason the City voted to demo the Astrodome and then the City and County looked at the costs and nothing happened.

[Houston19514]

1 hour ago, thatguysly said:

It costs millions to demo so it'll just sit there until someone figures they can recoup the costs with a new development on top of the demo costs. They already complain the margins are thin. It is the same reason the City voted to demo the Astrodome and then the City and County looked at the costs and nothing happened.

FWIW, nobody, least of all the City, has ever voted to demo the Astrodome.

[thatguysly]

On 6/29/2021 at 5:13 PM, Houston19514 said:

FWIW, nobody, least of all the City, has ever voted to demo the Astrodome.

I was implying the residents. And it was Harris County.

 

[Houston19514]

Just now, thatguysly said:

I was implying the residents. And it was Harris County.

 

Again, there has never been a vote by any body or group to demo the Astrodome.  Has. Not. Happened.

[thatguysly]

25 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

Again, there has never been a vote by any body or group to demo the Astrodome.  Has. Not. Happened.

Fine. Voted against renovating it. The point remains that demo costs are too high to get rid of worthless structures unless the developer is willing to pay a premium. 

[HouTXRanger]

Speaking of the Astrodome, just saw this article on it recently. It also has the most up-to-date info on the state of its "renovations."

https://kinder.rice.edu/urbanedge/2021/06/28/we-need-talk-about-astrodome

[Ross]

Shorenstein sold 800 Bell to Bell Business Investments llc on January 3, 2023. Tax notices to be sent to CMI Developers https://www.cmidevelopers.com/

[urbanize713]

27 minutes ago, Ross said:

Shorenstein sold 800 Bell to Bell Business Investments llc on January 3, 2023. Tax notices to be sent to CMI Developers https://www.cmidevelopers.com/

From their website:

"CMI Developers LLC is the development arm of a New York City-based real estate firm with decades of experience in real estate acquisition, development, and management. CMI has successfully developed properties in Brooklyn, The Bronx, Manhattan, and Upstate New York, and is at work on several large-scale historic adaptive reuse projects across the U.S."

Could this be one of the best developments of 2023? (so far)

[BEES?!]

This is so exciting!! I really had hoped it’d be the Days Inn, but this is honestly awesome news.

I hope they keep the character of the building. It’s a really cool MCM skyscraper and I love the shades. 

[strickn]

4 hours ago, urbanize713 said:

Could this be one of the best developments of 2023? (so far)

😊

[Brooklyn173]

CMI stands for Carnegie Management Inc. The address is in a bank building in Williamsburg Brooklyn. None of that is glamorous but you never know. It seems most of their business is tenant management all over NYC. I tried sending an email to the email address listed but it was bounced back as 'undeliverable'.

There is another CMI in Houston (Central Management) but at a different website. https://cmirealestate.com/ I don't think that they are related.

This project seems very much out of the ordinary for what I could find out about CMI Brooklyn. In size and complexity and location. It doesn't mean that they couldn't do it but I'd lean more towards the possibility that they are buying the property for a private trust or the like.

My hopes are high but my expectations are very tempered.

[strickn]

Yeah, but the featured projects on their site do account for at least four recent actual buildings that went vastly beyond tenant management.

maybe e-mail them a link about the Howard Cottonseed warehouse listing while you're looking for active inboxes?

 

[mkultra25]

Ran across a Mold-A-Rama history site containing some scans of an interesting period article about the building when it first opened. For those who aren't aware, the building originally had a coin-operated Mold-A-Rama machine installed on the floor that was publicly accessible as an observation deck, from which you could obtain your own plastic injection-molded replica of the building.

Humble Oil Building

[DotCom]

Ralph Bivins wrote about the sale yesterday in his Realty News Report email...it's not on his website yet.  He has been around for a minute (or two), so he always gives great historic recaps.  https://realtynewsreport.com/

Exxon Skyscraper Sold for Conversion to Residential in Downtown Houston

By Ralph Bivins

HOUSTON - The 45-story former headquarters of Humble Oil, a predecessor to Exxon, has been sold to a developer that plans to convert the vacant office building to residential units – a redevelopment that could supercharge downtown revitalization. 

The 1.2 million-SF building, located at 800 Bell, has been empty since the oil company relocated to its new campus about eight years ago. 

The buyer, a New York investment group affiliated with CMI Developers, has experience in historic redevelopment and apartment conversions.  The tower was completed in 1962. The age and prominence of the Exxon building might enable the developers to obtain tax credits designated for redeveloping historic buildings.

When the Exxon tower opened it was considered the tallest building west of the Mississippi River. At one time the top two floors of the building were the home of the Petroleum Club, a place where thousands of oil and gas plays were discussed and deals were struck. 

The large scale of the Exxon tower raises the opportunity for placing a significant amount of retail or restaurants in the lower levels of the building, located between Milam and Travis. The old Exxon parking garage, located nearby, comes with the deal. A number of surface parking lots, owned by others, are located in the area, carrying the potential for new development in the neighborhood.  

In 2013, Shorenstein Properties of San Francisco paid about $50 million to acquire the Exxon building, for a redevelopment. As part of the deal, Exxon Mobil, agreed to lease back the entire building until 2015, when it relocated its employees to its new 385-acre corporate campus in northern Harris County. 

When Shorenstein bought the Exxon building, Houston’s office market was soaring because fracking created a surge in the oil business. But oil prices took a nosedive in 2015 and Houston office vacancy escalated at a frightening pace. 

Shorenstein hired the Transwestern firm to lease the Exxon building. Ziegler Cooper Architects, a Houston firm led by Scott Ziegler, won a design competition, earning the opportunity to design the transformation for Shorenstein.  

But Houston’s office vacancy persisted. Covid hit. Downtown office vacancy is now approaching 26 percent, according to Jones Lang LaSalle. The hopes of revitalizing the Exxon building as office space faded. 

So last year, Shorenstein retained JLL Capital Markets’ Jeff Hollinden and Rick Goings to sell the property. In 2021, Hollinden and Goings had handled the sale of Shorenstein’s 28-story Five Post Oak Park office tower in Houston’s Inner Loop. The Exxon building’s sales price could not be determined over the MLK holiday weekend, but there has been speculation that the eventual price of 800 Bell would come in around $25 million, or about half of what Shorenstein paid for it years ago.  

Importantly, the Exxon building is located about five blocks north of the Pierce Elevated freeway. The Pierce Elevated freeway is expected to be re-routed and removed someday, according to the controversial Texas Department of Transportation plan for Interstate 45 and the downtown freeway network. Both projects – the removal of the Pierce Elevated and the 800 Bell redo - would provide significant momentum in the southern end of downtown.

[Naviguessor]

The Best of News!  I want a unit already.  

[MidCenturyMoldy]

Somebody tell Ralph it's 44 stories, not 45. And it was completed in 1963, not '62. I mean, really! 😉😄

Edited January 17 by MidCenturyMoldy

[mollusk]

On 1/13/2023 at 3:46 PM, mkultra25 said:

Ran across a Mold-A-Rama history site containing some scans of an interesting period article about the building when it first opened. For those who aren't aware, the building originally had a coin-operated Mold-A-Rama machine installed on the floor that was publicly accessible as an observation deck, from which you could obtain your own plastic injection-molded replica of the building.

Humble Oil Building

If I could only find the one I had... that probably failed to survive some move or another decades ago. 🤷‍♂️

[mkultra25]

14 minutes ago, mollusk said:

If I could only find the one I had... that probably failed to survive some move or another decades ago. 🤷‍♂️

Likewise. Unfortunately, that particular model is highly sought after by Mold-A-Rama collectors due to its apparent scarcity. Some years ago I thought I'd replace my long-lost one, and figured it would be easy to locate one for cheap on eBay. I was mistaken. I've only seen two there in probably the last ten years, and the last one sold for over $100. 

You'd think there'd be more of them around, given the thousands of people that passed through that observation deck, but as I recall they weren't exactly inexpensive. At a time when coin-op candy/gum machines were usually a penny, even a quarter had a non-trivial amount of purchasing power, and I think the Mold-A-Rama replicas were closer to a dollar than a quarter. 

[CREguy13]

I really hope this developer has the expertise, able to source the necessary capital, and receives a substantial credit from CHI to produce a very quality MF conversion.  This building has a lottt of issues, but the opportunity is so huge for this area if they do it right.  If Chevron moves their HQ and starts construction on a new building, along with this, that'd put a lot of eyes on an area RIPE for major development.  If KBR were to move out of 601 Jefferson and that was also converted? Goosebumps

[MidCenturyMoldy]

On 1/13/2023 at 3:46 PM, mkultra25 said:

Ran across a Mold-A-Rama history site containing some scans of an interesting period article about the building when it first opened. For those who aren't aware, the building originally had a coin-operated Mold-A-Rama machine installed on the floor that was publicly accessible as an observation deck, from which you could obtain your own plastic injection-molded replica of the building.

Humble Oil Building

My dad worked in that building when it first opened. While visiting him to see the building, we went up to the top (Oooh! Ear-popping elevator!) and I got a Mold-A-Rama Humble Building. What I really wanted was a Mold-A-Rama Domed Stadium. 😡

Edited January 17 by MidCenturyMoldy

[toxtethogrady]

The original thread disappeared, but this is now looking like it will happen. 800 Bell is being converted to residences.
Exxon Skyscraper Sold for Apartment Conversion

[ChannelTwoNews]

2 minutes ago, toxtethogrady said:

The original thread disappeared, but this is now looking like it will happen. 800 Bell is being converted to residences.
Exxon Skyscraper Sold for Apartment Conversion

This is the thread you mentioned.

 

[ChannelTwoNews]

I kept thinking I had heard the buzz about the photos taken by a fan of this tower from this site first, late last year. Guess not.

https://magazine.texasarchitects.org/2022/11/07/800-bell-reconsidering-an-iconic-midcentury-tower/

https://apalmanac.com/potw/check-out-the-passion-project-of-photographer-leonid-furmansky-as-he-photographs-800-bell-over-two-years-179187

https://www.ricedesignalliance.org/800bell-lf - Which briefly quotes the HAI entry on the tower to boot... 

 

The photographer's section on this tower: http://leonidfurmansky.com/800-bell-st-george-pierce-abel-b-pierce-and-wilson-morris-crane-anderson

Edited January 20 by ChannelTwoNews
link edited

[cloud713]

Any idea when a conversion is planned to start? This building will be a big part of my view this semester.

Hoping they retain the design and don’t try to reclad it like shorestein wanted to do.. wish those fins were structural enough to put glass walled balconies on.

[Ross]

2 hours ago, cloud713 said:

Any idea when a conversion is planned to start? This building will be a big part of my view this semester.

Hoping they retain the design and don’t try to reclad it like shorestein wanted to do.. wish those fins were structural enough to put glass walled balconies on.

I think it will be months before any real conversion work is done. The building needs to be gutted first, and all of the asbestos removed. I know the walls were designed to be easily moves, so that may be simpler than for other buildings.

The building has a basic floor size of 28,000+ sq ft, so it should be fairly easy to get 10-20 units per floor. I haven't seen any real diagrams of proposed layouts.

[hindesky]

I used this once for the easiest Bike Tag ever if you are willing to ride up 8 floors of parking garage.

[mattyt36]

On 1/20/2023 at 2:43 PM, cloud713 said:

Hoping they retain the design and don’t try to reclad it like shorestein wanted to do.. 

AMEN

On 1/20/2023 at 2:43 PM, cloud713 said:

Any idea when a conversion is planned to start? 

Well, if I had to guess, the building was just sold. Seems like they’re waiting on the new legislation to pass Council (which seems in the pretty early stages), then they have to design it, then get the financing. I’d be shocked if anything visible happened within six months, but what do I know?

[hindesky]

[004n063]

Somebody on Reddit said that the parking lots adjacent to this building cannot be developed due to structurally integral underground cables for this building.

Anybody know if there is any truth to that?

(If so, I withdraw my support for this conversion, and instead would like to start a pitchfork mob calling for its demolition.)

[Tumbleweed_Tx]

On 1/20/2023 at 5:45 PM, hindesky said:

I used this once for the easiest Bike Tag ever if you are willing to ride up 8 floors of parking garage.

that's one of the best spots in town for taking pictures at night

[phillip_white]

15 hours ago, 004n063 said:

Somebody on Reddit said that the parking lots adjacent to this building cannot be developed due to structurally integral underground cables for this building.

Anybody know if there is any truth to that?

I call malarkey.

[004n063]

1 hour ago, phillip_white said:

I call malarkey.

I hope you are right!

[mattyt36]

3 hours ago, phillip_white said:

I call malarkey.

How would that even work legally?  It'd be quite the encroachment.

[Houston19514]

57 minutes ago, mattyt36 said:

How would that even work legally?  It'd be quite the encroachment.

Exactly.  And it's hard to imagine how it would work physically as well...

[mattyt36]

12 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

Exactly.  And it's hard to imagine how it would work physically as well...

Well there’s that, too, now that you mention it. 🙃  Structurally integral underground cables on adjacent blocks? I’m no engineer but rings hollow to me.

[jdbaker]

20 hours ago, 004n063 said:

Somebody on Reddit said that the parking lots adjacent to this building cannot be developed due to structurally integral underground cables for this building.

Anybody know if there is any truth to that?

(If so, I withdraw my support for this conversion, and instead would like to start a pitchfork mob calling for its demolition.)

This is not true. I'm familiar with the ownership of three of the parking lot blocks surrounding 800 Bell. They are very sophisticated long term investors from NYC. They will go vertical at some point, but are happy to hold as long as it takes for the right deal. 

[004n063]

I was skeptical, but it sounded just horrible enough to be possible. So glad to here it's false.

[hindesky]

https://www.carnegiemanagementinc.com/index.html

https://www.cmidevelopers.com
 

[phillip_white]

9 hours ago, hindesky said:

https://www.carnegiemanagementinc.com/index.html

https://www.cmidevelopers.com
 

Uh oh... hopefully they aren't structural 😆

[ultimate_ed]

New article about the project.

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/houston-apartments-exxon-building-17736880.php

[hindesky]

[HoustonIsHome]

800 Bell really needs some neighbors. They don't have to be ballers. A few 20-25 floor (Skyhouse height) residential would be great. 

No parking podiums though. We need to loosen our hold on those, and that area has a couple monster ones already. To the North, on Clay the view is just a wall of parking. Does anyone know how full this get during peak use? 

The last hotel I stayed at in New Orleans was next to a giant parking garage and I didn't realize it until I was about to leave. There was retail in 3 sides that created so much ground level activity that I never bothered to look up. And even after looking up the only hint that this buildings were parking was the lack of windows. 

Here is an example in the French Quarter: 900 Iberville St
https://maps.app.goo.gl/AMrgN528ZfzCnCoR8

Compared to the ones near 800 Bell: 872 Clay St
https://maps.app.goo.gl/1q7Ny28EPDAChLT56

What do yall think of putting in stiffer regulations on downtown garage facades (especially fronting major thoroughfares).

Also, I know Randall’s is close, but I think this would be a great area for an alternative. 

[004n063]

4 minutes ago, HoustonIsHome said:

800 Bell really needs some neighbors. They don't have to be ballers. A few 20-25 floor (Skyhouse height) residential would be great. 

No parking podiums though. We need to loosen our hold on those, and that area has a couple monster ones already. To the North, on Clay the view is just a wall of parking. Does anyone know how full this get during peak use? 

The last hotel I stayed at in New Orleans was next to a giant parking garage and I didn't realize it until I was about to leave. There was retail in 3 sides that created so much ground level activity that I never bothered to look up. And even after looking up the only hint that this buildings were parking was the lack of windows. 

Here is an example in the French Quarter: 900 Iberville St
https://maps.app.goo.gl/AMrgN528ZfzCnCoR8

Compared to the ones near 800 Bell: 872 Clay St
https://maps.app.goo.gl/1q7Ny28EPDAChLT56

What do yall think of putting in stiffer regulations on downtown garage facades (especially fronting major thoroughfares).

Also, I know Randall’s is close, but I think this would be a great area for an alternative. 

I highly doubt a "full-sized" grocery store could work there, but it'd be nice to see more city-sized grocers (think Phoenicia at the very large end) spring up around the city.

 

I also agree that this parking district could be reinvisioned as a really nice urban village. In my fantasy, the blocks are criss-crossed by narrow pedestrian streets, but I don't see that happening. More likely several Texas Donuts à la 1810 Main. 

(Which would still be a massive improvement over the current configuration.)

[HoustonIsHome]

Ha ha, when the rail was first built it didn't take much to improve that area. No one got off at Bell. That stop was just... potential .. Spilling a can of paint would have been an improvement. 

It has slooooowly changed in the last few years.

I agree this can develop into a nice urban village,  but why don't you think a full sized grocer would not work? It's the Randall’s considered a full sized grocer? 

I don't mean something like a Super Walmart.  I was thinking more along the lines of Rouses in the CBD in Orleans (there's also a smaller version in their downtown but the CBD version is the one I'm thinking of). 900 Girod St
https://maps.app.goo.gl/HvcsHDaJdt3H7N528

That area used to be dead dead. Day or night. But since the grocery came in, there's been tons of activity day and night and a supporting cast of additional retail and restaurants have been popping up. 

Phoenicias is great and all but it's just one store. New Orleans downtown and it's CBD has probably 8 of the little grocers in addition to Rouses, the little corner stores like Brothers and the regular Walgreens and CVSs.

 

Sorry for going on and on, but why do you think another Randall’s-like supermarket won't work in that area? An urban Kroger or even better, an Aldi would probably work.  Heck even a Phoenicia2.0

There used to be another grocery store on the north end of Downtown. It started with a 'G' was it Georginas? It was cool but waaaay too pricey to do any regular shopping. Wasn't surprised that it didn't last long.

 

[004n063]

3 hours ago, HoustonIsHome said:

Ha ha, when the rail was first built it didn't take much to improve that area. No one got off at Bell. That stop was just... potential .. Spilling a can of paint would have been an improvement. 

It has slooooowly changed in the last few years.

I agree this can develop into a nice urban village,  but why don't you think a full sized grocer would not work? It's the Randall’s considered a full sized grocer? 

I don't mean something like a Super Walmart.  I was thinking more along the lines of Rouses in the CBD in Orleans (there's also a smaller version in their downtown but the CBD version is the one I'm thinking of). 900 Girod St
https://maps.app.goo.gl/HvcsHDaJdt3H7N528

That area used to be dead dead. Day or night. But since the grocery came in, there's been tons of activity day and night and a supporting cast of additional retail and restaurants have been popping up. 

Phoenicias is great and all but it's just one store. New Orleans downtown and it's CBD has probably 8 of the little grocers in addition to Rouses, the little corner stores like Brothers and the regular Walgreens and CVSs.

 

Sorry for going on and on, but why do you think another Randall’s-like supermarket won't work in that area? An urban Kroger or even better, an Aldi would probably work.  Heck even a Phoenicia2.0

There used to be another grocery store on the north end of Downtown. It started with a 'G' was it Georginas? It was cool but waaaay too pricey to do any regular shopping. Wasn't surprised that it didn't last long.

 

I am not an expert in grocery store economics, but my sense is just that the fact that there's a full-sized Randall's half a mile (if that) away would make it tough to pull in enough customers, especially since the Randall's is in a much more densely populated area that becomes denser still as you proceed southwest. 

All that said, there are zero grocery stores of any size directly on the Red Line, and Randall's is...well, not my favorite, anyway. So maybe a top-tier HEB or Whole Foods could do well and just put that Randall's out of business. But in either case, I'd say there's a "this [part of Down]town ain't big enough for the two of us" thing going on. 

But yeah, something like the Buffalo Heights HEB or the Midtown WF, with ground floor grocery and apartments above, might be successful at one of the current SP+ Parking lots. 

I think it'd need to be part of a bigger SoDo district plan, though, somewhere in the range of 2,000 total units. 

Again, I have zero expertise in any of this, so my thoughts here are worth nothing. But grocery stores do seem to have pretty huge overhead costs, especially in pricey real estate, and it seems to me that they tend to be averse to purely prospective/ hypothetical catchments.

Edited February 20 by 004n063

[HoustonIsHome]

I get what you are saying, but you are looking at your baby and saying she is the right size for these onesies and the 1T dress is just too big. Are you planning on your baby being onesie sized for ever? 

But With:

1. 1801 Smith,

2. 800 Bell,

3. the new 1801 Main apartments 

 4&5. the 2 Skyhouses,

6. Houston House,

7. 2016 Main

8. Eighteen25 Downtown 

9. Hamilton Downtown 

10. 2111 Austin Apartments 

11. 1711 Caroline Apartments 

12. Camden Downtown Apartments 

13. Block 334 Apartments 

14. Camden City Center

15. Skyline @ Midtown 

16. The Edge Condominiums 

17. Post Midtown 

18. 2222 Smith

19. Camden Midtown 

20. Camden Travis

21. Camden McGowan Station

22. Drewery Place

23. The Travis 

24. Mid Main Lofts

25. Midtown on the rail

26. Temenos Apartments ro

27. New Temenos Apartments....

There's probably a dozen others that I'm forgetting but the point is the baby isn't going to be onesie sized for ever don't you think a forward thinking plan for that area shouldn't include a grocery store? 

People can work, play and go out to eat Downtown, but the live part is verrrry difficult without a car because Phoenicias is too specialized and Randall’s is OK but doesn't fit the bill. I mean I can live on what's there but I don't want to and I think with all the options further west most people wouldn't want to either unless they have a car and that brings us back to the monster parking podiums or standalone garages. 

New Orleans downtown and it's CBD doesn't have any more people than Houston's downtown and midtown and yet they have close to a dozen to our 3. And out midtown and down town is about 4 miles compared to theirs at under 2 miles.

I think if we keep the it wouldn't work mentality we won't ever develop anything vibrant. 

800 bell at 45 floors can host a ton of people, 1801 Smith are going to host hundreds more, there's 3 empty blocks next to 800 bell that can host thousands. If they get rid of Pierce that would free up a dozen more blocks that could potentially hold thousands more. 

The Greyhound and McDonalds site is ripe for development, so it's that fenced field across from Greyhound,  then there's those 3 Cadillac blocks, there's sooooo much potential in that area but if Randall’s is the only option then forget about it. There would have to be at least an HEB AND at least a target for it to be worth it.  Otherwise give me the Heights, Montrose,  Rice Millitary any day. If i have to drive over there to shop why not just live there?

It is the missing piece in the puzzle. Heck even the CVSs in New Orleans stock more options than the ones in downtown/midtown Houston.  Corner stores like Brothers sell everything from booze to cooked food. 

 

Downtown and midtown (eado and 3rd ward too) has the bones for a real walkable environment but if you can't walk to get every day items then what's the point on it being walkable. Your grocery allotment would definitely have to be bumped up if you are relying on Phoenicia or Randall’s for your everyday needs.

[004n063]

1 hour ago, HoustonIsHome said:

I get what you are saying, but you are looking at your baby and saying she is the right size for these onesies and the 1T dress is just too big. Are you planning on your baby being onesie sized for ever? 

But With:

1. 1801 Smith,

2. 800 Bell,

3. the new 1801 Main apartments 

 4&5. the 2 Skyhouses,

6. Houston House,

7. 2016 Main

8. Eighteen25 Downtown 

9. Hamilton Downtown 

10. 2111 Austin Apartments 

11. 1711 Caroline Apartments 

12. Camden Downtown Apartments 

13. Block 334 Apartments 

14. Camden City Center

15. Skyline @ Midtown 

16. The Edge Condominiums 

17. Post Midtown 

18. 2222 Smith

19. Camden Midtown 

20. Camden Travis

21. Camden McGowan Station

22. Drewery Place

23. The Travis 

24. Mid Main Lofts

25. Midtown on the rail

26. Temenos Apartments ro

27. New Temenos Apartments....

There's probably a dozen others that I'm forgetting but the point is the baby isn't going to be onesie sized for ever don't you think a forward thinking plan for that area shouldn't include a grocery store? 

People can work, play and go out to eat Downtown, but the live part is verrrry difficult without a car because Phoenicias is too specialized and Randall’s is OK but doesn't fit the bill. I mean I can live on what's there but I don't want to and I think with all the options further west most people wouldn't want to either unless they have a car and that brings us back to the monster parking podiums or standalone garages. 

New Orleans downtown and it's CBD doesn't have any more people than Houston's downtown and midtown and yet they have close to a dozen to our 3. And out midtown and down town is about 4 miles compared to theirs at under 2 miles.

I think if we keep the it wouldn't work mentality we won't ever develop anything vibrant. 

800 bell at 45 floors can host a ton of people, 1801 Smith are going to host hundreds more, there's 3 empty blocks next to 800 bell that can host thousands. If they get rid of Pierce that would free up a dozen more blocks that could potentially hold thousands more. 

The Greyhound and McDonalds site is ripe for development, so it's that fenced field across from Greyhound,  then there's those 3 Cadillac blocks, there's sooooo much potential in that area but if Randall’s is the only option then forget about it. There would have to be at least an HEB AND at least a target for it to be worth it.  Otherwise give me the Heights, Montrose,  Rice Millitary any day. If i have to drive over there to shop why not just live there?

It is the missing piece in the puzzle. Heck even the CVSs in New Orleans stock more options than the ones in downtown/midtown Houston.  Corner stores like Brothers sell everything from booze to cooked food. 

 

Downtown and midtown (eado and 3rd ward too) has the bones for a real walkable environment but if you can't walk to get every day items then what's the point on it being walkable. Your grocery allotment would definitely have to be bumped up if you are relying on Phoenicia or Randall’s for your everyday needs.

Yeah, I pretty much agree with all of this. I just think that a full-sized grocer would probably need to view putting the Midtown Randall's out of business as a necessity (an outcome that would not bother me, personally). I don't think even a robustly realized future catchment can realistically sustain both.

I also think it's unlikely that a lot of people further south than, say, McGowan would choose a downtown grocery store over the Midtown Whole Foods.

[HoustonIsHome]

3 hours ago, 004n063 said:

Yeah, I pretty much agree with all of this. I just think that a full-sized grocer would probably need to view putting the Midtown Randall's out of business as a necessity (an outcome that would not bother me, personally). I don't think even a robustly realized future catchment can realistically sustain both.

I also think it's unlikely that a lot of people further south than, say, McGowan would choose a downtown grocery store over the Midtown Whole Foods.

If Randall’s doesn't make it then oh well it didn't make it.  I wouldn't care either. And I think the residents in the McGowan area would still use a supermarket near 800 Bell.

The closest rail stations to Whole Foods is Ensemble station or McGowan Station. Both are about 9 blocks away from Whole Foods. 

If they build a Store on the ground level on one of the two empty blocks next to 800 Bell you know how many blocks away it would be? ZERO!!! There is 2 blocks right @ the rail stop and a 3rd one block away. 

 

Idk about you but I would rather going two stops to Bell and have zero walk than to go one stop to ensemble and then walk 9 freaking blocks or tabs no rail at all and walk 9 freaking blocks.

Don't under-estimate how convenient those blocks around 800 mail are to a pedestrian life.

But knowing us we will build a parking garage right on the rail, and the other 2 lots will be a drive up CVS and McDonalds drive thru 

Edited February 21 by HoustonIsHome