Museum Tower - 42 Stories

[KinkaidAlum]

Is the 63% leased space for the Ritz Carlton a good indicator that this tower will succeed? I'm not sure how this stuff works.

The Ritz-Carlton isn't a rental building. These are for-sale condos. Having 35 our of the 95 units remaining unsold is a disaster.

The building opened on September 1, 2009. They've been actively marketing the units since 2007. To have that many remaining unsold almost a full year after the building opened and nearly 3 years since marketing began doesn't speak well for the high-end Dallas condo market.

Additionally, the other issue is which units have sold in the building. In high-rise living, it isn't just the size of the unit that matters but the floor level too. Generally speaking, the higher the floor the better the view. That also means, the better the view the costlier the pricetag.

While both 4 bedroom penthouses did sell, the rest of the picture looks bleak. Only 1 of the 3 bedrooms have sold. 18 of the 2 bedrooms remain unsold too.

Going further, the tower is only 23 stories tall. None of the units on the 21st floor have sold. 2 of the 3 on the 20th floor remain unsold. On floors 13-19, 13 of the 23 units remain vacant. That ain't good.

The simple fact of the matter is that someone on the Museum Tower development team worked a sweetheart deal with the pension fund. It's really this simple, this building shouldn't be built. Just do a google search for high rise condos in Dallas. You'll be SHOCKED by the amount of inventory available.

[C2H]

The Ritz-Carlton isn't a rental building. These are for-sale condos. Having 35 our of the 95 units remaining unsold is a disaster.

The building opened on September 1, 2009. They've been actively marketing the units since 2007. To have that many remaining unsold almost a full year after the building opened and nearly 3 years since marketing began doesn't speak well for the high-end Dallas condo market.

Additionally, the other issue is which units have sold in the building. In high-rise living, it isn't just the size of the unit that matters but the floor level too. Generally speaking, the higher the floor the better the view. That also means, the better the view the costlier the pricetag.

While both 4 bedroom penthouses did sell, the rest of the picture looks bleak. Only 1 of the 3 bedrooms have sold. 18 of the 2 bedrooms remain unsold too.

Going further, the tower is only 23 stories tall. None of the units on the 21st floor have sold. 2 of the 3 on the 20th floor remain unsold. On floors 13-19, 13 of the 23 units remain vacant. That ain't good.

The simple fact of the matter is that someone on the Museum Tower development team worked a sweetheart deal with the pension fund. It's really this simple, this building shouldn't be built. Just do a google search for high rise condos in Dallas. You'll be SHOCKED by the amount of inventory available.

Thanks for explaining that.

So really, Dallas is repeating the same mistakes over again. Still focusing on style and pizazz rather than building a city that has character. These new neighborhoods , with the exception of Uptown/Turtle creek have no character at all. The Arts District may be new but it was built way too fast to really have sustainability.

[AtticaFlinch]

Thanks for explaining that.

So really, Dallas is repeating the same mistakes over again. Still focusing on style and pizazz rather than building a city that has character. These new neighborhoods , with the exception of Uptown/Turtle creek have no character at all. The Arts District may be new but it was built way too fast to really have sustainability.

As a teen, Steve Miller wanted to play guitar so badly, his wealthy parents hired Les Paul as a teacher. For all his parents' money and for all the skill he acquired under the master's tutelage, his most memorable songs are "The Joker" and "Take the Money and Run". For all that money and the skills it bought, he was never able to pen a "Layla", a "Stairway to Heaven", a "Strawberry Fields" or even a "Hotel California".

You can't buy soul, and any attempt to do so makes you appear even more soulless. The City of Dallas is the Steve Miller of cities.

[Dallascaper]

The question might be asked, why are you only interested in the aesthetics? Why not discuss the financing schemes and what effect they have on other buildings and the city itself? Why be so superficial?

Here's the deal. The building makes no economic sense to me either, but it's a private building, with private funding that as far as I know has received no special tax incentives from Dallas. To me, the topic of how is building is financed is mundane because I have no skin in the game. An example of an interesting financing topic is the convention center hotel - because as a Dallas property owner, in a sense I am now in the hotel business and have a vested interest in the enterprise.

If you wish to discuss the financing of the Museum Tower, then knock yourself out. But I fail to see how the building of a relatively modest condo tower has anything to do with Dallas' attempts at becoming a world class city. I fail to see how your imaginative description of the Margaret Hunt Hill Bridge has anything to do with the tower. I fail to see how anything in your post made any relevant, factual point regarding the financing of the tower.

Seems to me you are no more interested in discussing the nuts-and-bolts of how this building was financed any more than I am.

[TheNiche]

If you wish to discuss the financing of the Museum Tower, then knock yourself out.

We weren't asking permission.

But I fail to see how the building of a relatively modest condo tower has anything to do with Dallas' attempts at becoming a world class city.

Given the number of units, the price point, and the market conditions, I wouldn't really describe the Museum Tower as modest. "Ambitious" perhaps, if I wanted to be polite about it. Not "modest".

One way or the other, this tower is an enigma (not that Houston doesn't have a few of those itself; Mosaic was "ambitious" too, and Montage was "insane"). And whether your career was cut short by crappy deals like this one or not (that's my excuse), it's definitely fun to speculate about.

[Coaster]

At the rate they build 40+ story towers in Dallas, in 60 years they'll have 3 more empty towers downtown. The last one was 20 years ago and in all this time the only way they could build a 40+ story tower is for the city to do it. This tower will keep private investors away from dt Dallas for decades.

[troyboy]

The city of Dallas had little to do with this tower. As Dallascaper said, it's totally privately funded and only the investors and buyers have anything to lose. If the tower fails, it will surely become apartments, which do very well downtown and will fill up anyway. How is that "bad" for the Arts District? Condos aren't selling like crazy in Houston either. For some reason, developers love Dallas and have for a long time. The 52-story Elm Place tower was vacated a few months ago, and already a developer announced plans for a residential conversion just yesteday. And some other poster said something about Dallas having no natural beauty as if when I think of natural beauty Houston comes to mind. Really? I've been away from this forum for over a year, come back to visit and Dallas is still the topic of conversation.

[AtticaFlinch]

I've been away from this forum for over a year, come back to visit and Dallas is still the topic of conversation.

Weird how the threads in the Dallas forum are about Dallas.

[Coaster]

That Elm Place thing is far from a done deal. City, Fire Department, Police Department, what's the difference?. No bank would go anywhere near Museum Tower because even a first year business major at at 3rd rate business college KNOWS it will lose a fortune.

Houston doesn't have much natural beauty either, but at least there is more to see in the area than prairies in every direction.

BTW, I wouldn't put any weight in that people at HAIF are discussing a 40+ story tower that might be built in Dallas. They only happen once in a generation. And it probably won't happen again in our lifetimes.

[KinkaidAlum]

Funny that you bring up Elm Place. Seems to me that the real news is that ANOTHER former office tower in downtown Dallas has now gone belly up. As to whether or not the conversion goes forward, we'll see. Either way, there's going to be a HUGE vacant building for awhile. For comparison's sake, that would be like the entire Fulbright Tower in Houston Center going dark!

[RedScare]

The 52-story Elm Place tower was vacated a few months ago, and already a developer announced plans for a residential conversion just yesteday.

Nice attempt at putting lipstick on a pig. The article was a press release by an architect touting its drawing of ideas to re-adapt the building to residential. Not only has the developer not bought the building, they do not even have an AGREEMENT to buy the building. Have you guys grown so desparate for something to brag about that you'll trumpet PR press releases as actual developments?

Having lived in Houston in the mid-80s, I am uniguely qualified to advise you on how to handle this problem. Drink heavily, screw anything that moves, and stop listening to PR people of any kind. Trust me, this works.

Hope that helps.

[713 To 214]

It's interesting to see so many Houston-based HAIF forumers have been keeping up with what's going on in and around Dallas.

As one poster pointed out. This is a private development. It will make a great addition to the skyline. The City of Dallas had nothing to do with it's funding and upcoming construction, other than the City's investments in the Arts District, Victory, the Woodall Rodgers Deck Park, and the upcoming Marget Hunt-Hill bridge, among other things. One could say that the culmination of all of these things, in addition to the development of The Woodall Rodgers corridor (including the forthcoming Natural History Museum), incentivized the investment in this tower. I'm sure Museum Tower's developers and investors realize that with the surrounding Starchitecture, and amenities, Museum Tower will be successful.

[713 To 214]

Btw, the (unprovoked) pot shots taken at "Dallas" are predictible, funny, and pathetic at the same time.

[TheNiche]

The city of Dallas had little to do with this tower. As Dallascaper said, it's totally privately funded and only the investors and buyers have anything to lose. If the tower fails, it will surely become apartments, which do very well downtown and will fill up anyway. How is that "bad" for the Arts District?

A residential project's failure is no good if you're trying to prove that residential development in the Arts District is viable. It scares away new investment.

Have you guys grown so desparate for something to brag about that you'll trumpet PR press releases as actual developments?

In all fairness, Houston does this about theme parks.

[713 To 214]

^Don't forget the W Hotel and the Ritz (as if those projects were ever going to happen).

[RedScare]

^Don't forget the W Hotel and the Ritz (as if those projects were ever going to happen).

Oh, we haven't. They were exhibits 1 and 2 in our discussion of the viability of this building.

35 of the 95 units at the Ritz-Carlton remain UNSOLD. The Ritz has a better brand name and amenities as well as a "safer" location closer to the uber wealthy Dallas hoods. They've been marketing the Ritz for FOUR YEARS now.

The W Residences have been a flop. Numerous units have never sold. Most of the ones that did sell sold to investors who are now actively trying to lease the units.

That pension fund is going to take a blood bath...

We also haven't forgotten House, which the Dallas Morning News stated has only sold 10% of its units.

Dallas, Texas: Miami on the Prairie!

[scarface]

What I don't get is why some Dallas people on here are so concerned why we keep up with Dallas in discussing things that the city is doing that appear to be detrimental? Like AF said, that's what the Dallas subforum is for. Dallasites love to come on here and post information about what's going up or what's proposed, but can't handle it when there's a little criticism and skeptism?

[Coaster]

Btw, the (unprovoked) pot shots taken at "Dallas" are predictible, funny, and pathetic at the same time.

Not as pathetic as a disgruntled Dallass enthusiast that keeps returning to a Houston based architecture forum to see what Houstonians think about Dallas projects. I know the opinions around here mean a lot to you. You're always slithering in here looking for trouble. Pathetic.

Museum tower would not happen unless the Dallas Police and Fireman's Pension Fund was willing to invest in it. And they are only doing it because they want to keep their investments local. As I said before no unbiased bank or investment group who knows what they are doing would go anywhere near the downtown dallas real estate market. And won't be doing it for decades to come after this financial bloodbath.

You're right these posts are funny. HA! HA!

[Coaster]

Nice attempt at putting lipstick on a pig.

Welcome to Dallas, Texas. The pig lipstick capital of America.

Empty towers, billion dollar bridges over ditches to nowhere, empty light rail cars, faux arts districts, and jumbotrons that nobody watches. Pathetic. HA! HA!

[Coaster]

In all fairness, Houston does this about theme parks.

At least the theme park idea is based on Houston having a market for such a thing. It's not like there are dozens of theme parks in Houston that are standing empty and a local pension fund might possibly be funding another one - unlike what's going on in pig-lipstick city. Besides, 7 million dollars have already been invested in EarthQuest. The development is well beyond the PR press release stage at this point. At least the PR is believable when you consider the market. Talking about it with hope that it will happen is one thing, bragging about it is a different issue altogether, and I wouldn't be doing that - YET. Just like I wouldn't be bragging on Museum tower until I saw cement trucks on the site if I lived up in Pigtown. And even IF that tower gets built it won't be all that much to brag about. The tower is pretty but the logic behind building it is asinine - and I think that takes some of the bragging rights away when you know that this tower (much like that eyesore of a bridge) serves NO purpose.

[jgriff]

Museum tower would not happen unless the Dallas Police and Fireman's Pension Fund was willing to invest in it. And they are only doing it because they want to keep their investments local.

And they can probably count on the city to pony up when the pension fund fails.

[Urbannizer]

August 4th:

Flickr

[TheNiche]

Why does it look like Westchase?

[dfwcre8tive]

Here's the webcam. Crane is up now.

http://commercial.austinprojects.com/museumtower.html

[LTAWACS]

Why does it look like Westchase?

Negative. Westchase is nowhere near as dense.

[TheNiche]

Negative. Westchase is nowhere near as dense.

You misunderstood. It was more of a shot at the bland, boxy architecture.

[dfwcre8tive]

November 23:

[KinkaidAlum]

Is that a ramp to/from a freeway that is literally surrounding the project?

[TheNiche]

Is that a ramp to/from a freeway that is literally surrounding the project?

Not entirely, but yep, the project is a traffic island.

[TxDave]

The freeway is being covered for a park. Even with the ramp behind, the site will have access on two sides - one with direct park access.

Whether or not it is wise or necessary, the project will be in a prime location.