Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Trae

Museum Tower - 42 Stories

Recommended Posts

As I said before, the building looks pretty good but, IMO, would look even better if they'd ease up on the glass facade. A bit TOO much glass.

Outside of that, it would seem like a nice addition, even if it seems to sit a bit away from the rest of the skyline.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think it's too far away from Downtown.

That is the middle of downtown. The Art's district in Dallas is along the new Main Street of Woodall Rogers Freeway. Check out all the development going on in that area and you will see that the vast majority of it is being built 2 or 3 blocks from Woodall Rogers. This is why the building will get filled up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This tower may or may not get built - most of us are not actually real estate experts who can truly say if this is a brilliant project or impending failure. At this point in this thread those possibilities has been well addressed.

So, aside from that speculation, I would be more interested in hearing the opinions about the building itself, and its overall impact on the surrounding area IF it does actually get get built.

In my opinion, the rendering makes it look like a fairly unique and interesting building that would probably add a lot to the skyline, but at 42 stories it will completely dwarf its low-rise Arts District neighbors (and Woodall Rodgers Park) and stand somewhat isolated.

Perhaps it isn't much different than the Trammel Crow Center looming over the district, and if anything ever happens with the old Lone Star site across from the Meyerson, it might fit in better.

All in all, I think it will be a nice asset if it does get completed, although it may not be the best fit for that site.

Not only is this project going to get built, but don't be surprised if a lot more projects similar to this get started in order to match the timing of the completion of this next phase of the Art's district. The city of Dallas has been working too hard for decades to build this thing and it is going to be a smash hit on global proportions when it is completed.

Add to this the planned building of a park plaza over Woodall Rogers Freeway, the new bridge accross the Trinity, the booming Victory and Uptown areas, the new corporations headquartered in the Art's district and the ultimate completion of the Trinity River project and one has all the ingredients necessary for major development to happen in and around the Art's district.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Not only is this project going to get built, but don't be surprised if a lot more projects similar to this get started in order to match the timing of the completion of this next phase of the Art's district. The city of Dallas has been working too hard for decades to build this thing and it is going to be a smash hit on global proportions when it is completed.

Add to this the planned building of a park plaza over Woodall Rogers Freeway, the new bridge accross the Trinity, the booming Victory and Uptown areas, the new corporations headquartered in the Art's district and the ultimate completion of the Trinity River project and one has all the ingredients necessary for major development to happen in and around the Art's district.

LOL If nothing else, at least your posts are entertaining. I LOVE the line "a smash hit on global proportions". I'm going to try to use it often... ;-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The city of Dallas has been working too hard for decades to build this thing and it is going to be a smash hit on global proportions when it is completed.

You've got to be kidding. Comments like this are the reason Dallas threads can't stay civil.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is on hold. Guess what I said in the beginning of the thread was true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So...........Did u have an orgasm? <_<

I did as soon as I thought about your anguish while hearing the news...

Seriously, I thought it was a cool tower.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So...........Did u have an orgasm? <_<

You mad? This is a pretty nice tower, but the market is overbuilt up there in Dallas. No big deal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There's talk over on Dallas Metropolis that this building is "on hold".

When I spoke to the office in November they said ground breaking is planned for May 2008. We'll have to wait and see. The latest press release on their website (dated 12/13/07) still mentions a start of 2008 with completion in 2010.

Edited by njjeppson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dallas Police and Fire Pension System to fund Arts District condo project

09:35 AM CDT on Wednesday, June 16, 2010 By STEVE BROWN / The Dallas Morning News

Developers who have been working for more a decade to build a soaring downtown Dallas condo tower say they are moving ahead with those plans.

***

The builders reached an agreement with the Dallas Police and Fire Pension System to fund the $200 million development, partner John Sughrue said Tuesday.

Construction will start as soon as next week on what will be the largest private-sector real estate project started in Dallas in more than two years.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/061610dnbusmuseumtower.18749d4.html

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dallas's Museum Tower is under construction which makes very little economic sense. These are 1 million dollar condos and there isn't a market in downtown Dallas to support it. Victory Park wasn't enough beating for Dallas adding to the already high vacancy rates, and with the fairly recent vacancy of Elm Place, this will only add to an already existing problem. Why does Dallas insist on doing this to itself?

http://www.realestatechannel.com/us-markets/commercial-real-estate-1/real-estate-news-dallas-real-estate-developers-museum-tower-dallas-office-space-john-sughrue-brook-partners-kevin-brass-international-property-journal-2725.php

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OOPS, I apologize, i didn't realize this topic was already discussed. Please merge with existing topic.

Edited by scarface

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dallas's Museum Tower is under construction which makes very little economic sense. These are 1 million dollar condos and there isn't a market in downtown Dallas to support it. Victory Park wasn't enough beating for Dallas adding to the already high vacancy rates, and with the fairly recent vacancy of Elm Place, this will only add to an already existing problem. Why does Dallas insist on doing this to itself?

Well...look at where the money came from, figure the politics of real estate in Dallas--watch closely in the coming years--and do the math.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OOPS, I apologize, i didn't realize this topic was already discussed. Please merge with existing topic.

Done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dallas's Museum Tower is under construction which makes very little economic sense. These are 1 million dollar condos and there isn't a market in downtown Dallas to support it. Victory Park wasn't enough beating for Dallas adding to the already high vacancy rates, and with the fairly recent vacancy of Elm Place, this will only add to an already existing problem. Why does Dallas insist on doing this to itself?

Excellent question. I've been trying to figure that one out too. For the sake of Dallas, I hope they don't end up with another Stonehenge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

200 people show up for Museum Tower groundbreaking in Dallas Arts District

11:48 AM CDT on Thursday, June 24, 2010

By STEVE BROWN / The Dallas Morning News

stevebrown@dallasnews.com

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/062510dnbusMuseum.d4ba980f.html

Building groundbreakings are few and far between these days.

So maybe that’s why more than 200 people turned out on a hot summer morning to watch construction kick off on the Museum Tower condo project in downtown’s Arts District.

The 42-story building is the tallest building started in Dallas since work began on the Cityplace Tower in the mid-1980s.

...

“This will be one of the great addresses in the U.S.” said Museum Tower partner Dan Boeckman.

It’s also one of the few skyscrapers going up in the country because of the recession and credit crunch, which has cut off funds for most building.

“This tower is one of the first in the U.S. to turn the corner in the economic slowdown,” said project architect Scott Johnson.

Museum Tower is being paid for by the Dallas Police and Fire Pension System, which will own the building and plans to profit from the condo sales.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why is Dallas doing this?

I mean, really???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

35 of the 95 units at the Ritz-Carlton remain UNSOLD. The Ritz has a better brand name and amenities as well as a "safer" location closer to the uber wealthy Dallas hoods. They've been marketing the Ritz for FOUR YEARS now.

The W Residences have been a flop. Numerous units have never sold. Most of the ones that did sell sold to investors who are now actively trying to lease the units.

That pension fund is going to take a blood bath...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

35 of the 95 units at the Ritz-Carlton remain UNSOLD. The Ritz has a better brand name and amenities as well as a "safer" location closer to the uber wealthy Dallas hoods. They've been marketing the Ritz for FOUR YEARS now.

The W Residences have been a flop. Numerous units have never sold. Most of the ones that did sell sold to investors who are now actively trying to lease the units.

That pension fund is going to take a blood bath...

Agreed. The question is: are they that ignorant or is there some nefarious "back story" here?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

35 of the 95 units at the Ritz-Carlton remain UNSOLD. The Ritz has a better brand name and amenities as well as a "safer" location closer to the uber wealthy Dallas hoods. They've been marketing the Ritz for FOUR YEARS now.

The W Residences have been a flop. Numerous units have never sold. Most of the ones that did sell sold to investors who are now actively trying to lease the units.

That pension fund is going to take a blood bath...

I agree. And on a related note, they're going through with the Trinity Suspension Bridges that are going to cost several millions dollars to rise over a man-made body of water. They say developers are snatching up property around it in high anticipation. All of this makes "ZERO" sense. I find it frustrating that Dallas wants to try this hard to "look" like a world class city when its clear its not ready yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree. And on a related note, they're going through with the Trinity Suspension Bridges that are going to cost several millions dollars to rise over a man-made body of water. They say developers are snatching up property around it in high anticipation. All of this makes "ZERO" sense. I find it frustrating that Dallas wants to try this hard to "look" like a world class city when its clear its not ready yet.

Not 'several millions'. More like $120 million. And that is only for the first one, which, coincidentally, does not even connect any roads to each other. Because the Trinity levees must be rebuilt, it could take another 6 years and $150 million if you believe Dallas City Council, or up to $2 Billion, if you believe opponents. Lately, opponents have been right more than Council.

In this sense, Museum Tower IS similar to the Calatrava bridge(s). In Dallas' desparation to eat at the big kids' table, they have squandered hundreds of millions of dollars on a bridge that connects to nothing, and now are mortgaging the retirements of their police and firefighters on a condo tower that likely cannot be sold, all in the hope that they will be 'hip and cool'. I don't know what a bridge with no connecting streets, or an empty tower is, but 'hip and cool' are not the words that come to mind

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not 'several millions'. More like $120 million. And that is only for the first one, which, coincidentally, does not even connect any roads to each other. Because the Trinity levees must be rebuilt, it could take another 6 years and $150 million if you believe Dallas City Council, or up to $2 Billion, if you believe opponents. Lately, opponents have been right more than Council.

In this sense, Museum Tower IS similar to the Calatrava bridge(s). In Dallas' desparation to eat at the big kids' table, they have squandered hundreds of millions of dollars on a bridge that connects to nothing, and now are mortgaging the retirements of their police and firefighters on a condo tower that likely cannot be sold, all in the hope that they will be 'hip and cool'. I don't know what a bridge with no connecting streets, or an empty tower is, but 'hip and cool' are not the words that come to mind

Not to disagree, because Dallas clearly didn't do due diligence in planning the bridge, but my understanding is that the bridge approaches have been cleared by the Army Corps of Engineers. I'm not an engineer, so maybe I missed something and you are right.

As for the tower, who cares? I'm never going to live there, I'm never going to pay for it, so I will just sit back and enjoy the show. And frankly, I don't care to know the balance sheet or funding sources for every tower, bridge or road built in Houston, so why are you guys in a tizzy over Dallas? Chill out - it's pretty tower, what more do you really need to know?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

so why are you guys in a tizzy over Dallas? Chill out - it's pretty tower, what more do you really need to know?

I can't speak for everyone, only me. I just have a hard time understanding why Dallas is so hell bent on trying to BE a world class city, its constantly willing to shoot itself in the foot. Victory park hasn't even begun to recover and most of those stores are sitting vacant.

Quit trying to make it seem like we're are losing sleep over this. This topic has already been started and is the perfect place to discuss. It's not a crime to state our observations on clear mistakes your city continues to make. Same goes for Miami or any other city that makes bonehead moves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As for the tower, who cares? I'm never going to live there, I'm never going to pay for it, so I will just sit back and enjoy the show.

How wonderful for you. I wonder if DPD and DFD personnel feel similarly.

You can attribute my own interest in the subject to careerism. I no longer have a job or any prospects in the development field, and in no small part because investors the world over did too many dumb projects like these.

Edited by TheNiche

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This topic has already been started and is the perfect place to discuss. It's not a crime to state our observations on clear mistakes your city continues to make. Same goes for Miami or any other city that makes bonehead moves.

Just to nitpick on a pet peeve of mine, the corporeal form of a city does not decide anything. It is not a self-aware entity. And any notion that a collective consciousness is responsible for the financing of high-profile projects in a particular city is outright bunk.

When referring to a polity such as the City of Dallas (as may very well be appropriate in this particular case), capitalize the word 'City'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not to disagree, because Dallas clearly didn't do due diligence in planning the bridge, but my understanding is that the bridge approaches have been cleared by the Army Corps of Engineers. I'm not an engineer, so maybe I missed something and you are right.

As for the tower, who cares? I'm never going to live there, I'm never going to pay for it, so I will just sit back and enjoy the show. And frankly, I don't care to know the balance sheet or funding sources for every tower, bridge or road built in Houston, so why are you guys in a tizzy over Dallas? Chill out - it's pretty tower, what more do you really need to know?

My knowledge comes from the articles I cited. It does appear that one was dated July 2009, but the second one is dated June 2010. That article discusses the fact that the entire levee system must be substantially rebuilt. You are correct that the Corps appears to have approved the piers going in with certain modifications.

As for the tower, many of us on this forum enjoy debating the financial merits of projects as well as the architectural merits. While we will debate Houston projects too, nothing compares to Dallas, as they routinely begin projects that make no financial sense. And they've been doing it for decades, adding to the head scratching. Frankly, it is much more interesting than simply saying, 'that's a pretty building'. FWIW, we are not alone. I noticed this to be a common theme on Dallas Metropolis, too. The question might be asked, why are you only interested in the aesthetics? Why not discuss the financing schemes and what effect they have on other buildings and the city itself? Why be so superficial?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I smell a lawsuit coming. This tower really makes no sense. Seriously, who is going to buy a condo, starting from $1 million, in Downtown Dallas? This isn't Manhattan. Not even the Trump Tower Chicago starts off that high. What are presales like for the Museum Tower? Why do they feel the need to rush this tower, considering all of the other high vacancies in other condo towers in the area? Dallas continues to amaze me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I smell a lawsuit coming. This tower really makes no sense. Seriously, who is going to buy a condo, starting from $1 million, in Downtown Dallas? This isn't Manhattan. Not even the Trump Tower Chicago starts off that high. What are presales like for the Museum Tower? Why do they feel the need to rush this tower, considering all of the other high vacancies in other condo towers in the area? Dallas continues to amaze me.

The City of Dallas operates under the Field of Dreams principle:

If you build it, ghosts will walk out of the cornfields and secretly be your father... or whatever. I never stayed awake through the entire movie.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is the 63% leased space for the Ritz Carlton a good indicator that this tower will succeed? I'm not sure how this stuff works.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A clear case of civic pride gone mad.

But that just about sums up Dallas' entire existence. So I guess there is nothing wrong with it. When you live in a place with no natural beauty, baking temperatures and all you were given by God is endless boring prairies to look at in every direction, you have to keep building interesting things to look at. Without billion dollar suspension bridges over ditches, McMansion style, instant arts districts with no soul, assuredly empty million dollar condos, and jumbo screen plazas and light rail cars with no people there would not be much to get exited about in Dallas. But who cares -we all know that money and practicality doesn't matter. All that matters is that all these useless things that Dallas builds will look great on internet photo websites.

I don't blame Dallas enthusiast for being in favor these projects. If more people in Houston were willing to take extreme financial risk all for the sake of 'cool' every once in a while I wouldn't be complaining. It sure looks like Dallas is taking this coolness thing to the extreme, tho. I guess inland cities have to work harder to do something to try and make up for not having ocean front property nearby.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Note that this tower is still not actually under construction. The only thing that has actually happened is the "official ceremonial" groundbreaking. I have a sneaking suspicion this might be nothing more than another wacky marketing scheme by the Museum Tower folk who in the past produced such knee-slappers as "We're going to start construction as soon as the King Tut exhibit closes because we don't want to cause additional traffic congestion." Mark me down as - Not yet convinced that construction will actually happen any time soon (in part because it is hard to believe anyone would be that foolish).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is the 63% leased space for the Ritz Carlton a good indicator that this tower will succeed? I'm not sure how this stuff works.

The Ritz-Carlton isn't a rental building. These are for-sale condos. Having 35 our of the 95 units remaining unsold is a disaster.

The building opened on September 1, 2009. They've been actively marketing the units since 2007. To have that many remaining unsold almost a full year after the building opened and nearly 3 years since marketing began doesn't speak well for the high-end Dallas condo market.

Additionally, the other issue is which units have sold in the building. In high-rise living, it isn't just the size of the unit that matters but the floor level too. Generally speaking, the higher the floor the better the view. That also means, the better the view the costlier the pricetag.

While both 4 bedroom penthouses did sell, the rest of the picture looks bleak. Only 1 of the 3 bedrooms have sold. 18 of the 2 bedrooms remain unsold too.

Going further, the tower is only 23 stories tall. None of the units on the 21st floor have sold. 2 of the 3 on the 20th floor remain unsold. On floors 13-19, 13 of the 23 units remain vacant. That ain't good.

The simple fact of the matter is that someone on the Museum Tower development team worked a sweetheart deal with the pension fund. It's really this simple, this building shouldn't be built. Just do a google search for high rise condos in Dallas. You'll be SHOCKED by the amount of inventory available.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Ritz-Carlton isn't a rental building. These are for-sale condos. Having 35 our of the 95 units remaining unsold is a disaster.

The building opened on September 1, 2009. They've been actively marketing the units since 2007. To have that many remaining unsold almost a full year after the building opened and nearly 3 years since marketing began doesn't speak well for the high-end Dallas condo market.

Additionally, the other issue is which units have sold in the building. In high-rise living, it isn't just the size of the unit that matters but the floor level too. Generally speaking, the higher the floor the better the view. That also means, the better the view the costlier the pricetag.

While both 4 bedroom penthouses did sell, the rest of the picture looks bleak. Only 1 of the 3 bedrooms have sold. 18 of the 2 bedrooms remain unsold too.

Going further, the tower is only 23 stories tall. None of the units on the 21st floor have sold. 2 of the 3 on the 20th floor remain unsold. On floors 13-19, 13 of the 23 units remain vacant. That ain't good.

The simple fact of the matter is that someone on the Museum Tower development team worked a sweetheart deal with the pension fund. It's really this simple, this building shouldn't be built. Just do a google search for high rise condos in Dallas. You'll be SHOCKED by the amount of inventory available.

Thanks for explaining that.

So really, Dallas is repeating the same mistakes over again. Still focusing on style and pizazz rather than building a city that has character. These new neighborhoods , with the exception of Uptown/Turtle creek have no character at all. The Arts District may be new but it was built way too fast to really have sustainability.

Edited by C2H

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for explaining that.

So really, Dallas is repeating the same mistakes over again. Still focusing on style and pizazz rather than building a city that has character. These new neighborhoods , with the exception of Uptown/Turtle creek have no character at all. The Arts District may be new but it was built way too fast to really have sustainability.

As a teen, Steve Miller wanted to play guitar so badly, his wealthy parents hired Les Paul as a teacher. For all his parents' money and for all the skill he acquired under the master's tutelage, his most memorable songs are "The Joker" and "Take the Money and Run". For all that money and the skills it bought, he was never able to pen a "Layla", a "Stairway to Heaven", a "Strawberry Fields" or even a "Hotel California".

You can't buy soul, and any attempt to do so makes you appear even more soulless. The City of Dallas is the Steve Miller of cities.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The question might be asked, why are you only interested in the aesthetics? Why not discuss the financing schemes and what effect they have on other buildings and the city itself? Why be so superficial?

Here's the deal. The building makes no economic sense to me either, but it's a private building, with private funding that as far as I know has received no special tax incentives from Dallas. To me, the topic of how is building is financed is mundane because I have no skin in the game. An example of an interesting financing topic is the convention center hotel - because as a Dallas property owner, in a sense I am now in the hotel business and have a vested interest in the enterprise.

If you wish to discuss the financing of the Museum Tower, then knock yourself out. But I fail to see how the building of a relatively modest condo tower has anything to do with Dallas' attempts at becoming a world class city. I fail to see how your imaginative description of the Margaret Hunt Hill Bridge has anything to do with the tower. I fail to see how anything in your post made any relevant, factual point regarding the financing of the tower.

Seems to me you are no more interested in discussing the nuts-and-bolts of how this building was financed any more than I am.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you wish to discuss the financing of the Museum Tower, then knock yourself out.

We weren't asking permission.

But I fail to see how the building of a relatively modest condo tower has anything to do with Dallas' attempts at becoming a world class city.

Given the number of units, the price point, and the market conditions, I wouldn't really describe the Museum Tower as modest. "Ambitious" perhaps, if I wanted to be polite about it. Not "modest".

One way or the other, this tower is an enigma (not that Houston doesn't have a few of those itself; Mosaic was "ambitious" too, and Montage was "insane"). And whether your career was cut short by crappy deals like this one or not (that's my excuse), it's definitely fun to speculate about.

Edited by TheNiche

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At the rate they build 40+ story towers in Dallas, in 60 years they'll have 3 more empty towers downtown. The last one was 20 years ago and in all this time the only way they could build a 40+ story tower is for the city to do it. This tower will keep private investors away from dt Dallas for decades.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The city of Dallas had little to do with this tower. As Dallascaper said, it's totally privately funded and only the investors and buyers have anything to lose. If the tower fails, it will surely become apartments, which do very well downtown and will fill up anyway. How is that "bad" for the Arts District? Condos aren't selling like crazy in Houston either. For some reason, developers love Dallas and have for a long time. The 52-story Elm Place tower was vacated a few months ago, and already a developer announced plans for a residential conversion just yesteday. And some other poster said something about Dallas having no natural beauty as if when I think of natural beauty Houston comes to mind. Really? I've been away from this forum for over a year, come back to visit and Dallas is still the topic of conversation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been away from this forum for over a year, come back to visit and Dallas is still the topic of conversation.

Weird how the threads in the Dallas forum are about Dallas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That Elm Place thing is far from a done deal. City, Fire Department, Police Department, what's the difference?. No bank would go anywhere near Museum Tower because even a first year business major at at 3rd rate business college KNOWS it will lose a fortune.

Houston doesn't have much natural beauty either, but at least there is more to see in the area than prairies in every direction.

BTW, I wouldn't put any weight in that people at HAIF are discussing a 40+ story tower that might be built in Dallas. They only happen once in a generation. And it probably won't happen again in our lifetimes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Funny that you bring up Elm Place. Seems to me that the real news is that ANOTHER former office tower in downtown Dallas has now gone belly up. As to whether or not the conversion goes forward, we'll see. Either way, there's going to be a HUGE vacant building for awhile. For comparison's sake, that would be like the entire Fulbright Tower in Houston Center going dark!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...