2007-2008 Crude Oil Cost

[musicman]

when the cost of energy increases faster (and beyond) than the rate of inflation, you really "f"-ed up.

have you considered driving less? using turning up the thermostat? using less electricity? it's called lessening the demand and you're in total control of how much you use.

[TheNiche]

Nice tangent, I know people run everything, including the government and corporations. But I, being part of the "people", don't get special privileges that corporations (particularly energy).

If you call $600 a privilege, then I will sit quiet, but when "Mr. Corp" get that $600/$1200 too, PLUS tax breaks and exemptions . . .

"Mr. Corp" is a more than just "people" then, don't you agree.

You, being part of the "people", can buy ownership of ExxonMobil and other corporations just like Red and I have. Nobody's stopping you. The distributive argument doesn't hold a lot of water with me; demanding that you be afforded some standard of living or being jealous of that afforded to others (whether by force or wit) is just pathetic and whiny.

If you want to talk about effective policy, now there, I'll agree with you. Tax breaks such as have been implemented are minimally effective and need to be rethought.

[Pumapayam]

It's almost as if you don't think the Bush adminisitration had anything decision wise to do with why we are in the "high cost energy crisis" state we are in, and almost accepting of it because you can "cash" in as well if you own stock in "said" oil company. Things should be better than this.

It's sad that you (TheNiche) think the "bright side" of this is that you can profit off this and that should be cause for me to stop whining.

I could care less about profiting, I just want to live a live within my means where I don't see the rapidly increasing percentage of my income go into filling my gas tank.

[KatieDidIt]

It's almost as if you don't think the Bush adminisitration had anything decision wise to do with why we are in the "high cost energy crisis" state we are in, and almost accepting of it because you can "cash" in as well if you own stock in "said" oil company. Things should be better than this.

It's sad that you (TheNiche) think the "bright side" of this is that you can profit off this and that should be cause for me to stop whining.

I could care less about profiting, I just want to live a live within my means where I don't see the percentage of my income go into filling my gas tank.

I don't mind paying at the pump, its good for Houston's economy and that has a trickle down affect to everyone who lives here.

HOWEVER- Groceries are getting stupidly expensive due to it. I think we've gone up about 50 bucks a week on the basics. And if you want to buy organic lately, take out a loan.

[Pumapayam]

have you considered driving less? using turning up the thermostat? using less electricity? it's called lessening the demand and you're in total control of how much you use.

I am in control of my usage, I agree with you.

I am not in control of the price, which is what this topic covers.

Energy conservation is great, but I would do it to be environmentally friendly, saving money is just a secondary benefit.

I can afford my current usage and am pretty efficient already.

You can only conserve so much and the price increase will still hurt you. Using less is not a real long term solution, the price will still go up.

[ricco67]

Who owns corporations? Space aliens? Which race of aliens, do you think? The Ancients, Asgards, Ewoks, Ferengi, the ones from Independence Day, Goa'uld, Jem'Hadar, Klingons, Kryptonians, Martians as portrayed in Mars Attacks, Ocampans, Ori, Protoss, Romulans, Vulcans, Wookies, Wraith, or Zerg? Or is it an even more obscure species from a less popular sci-fi show or movie? Possibly from a book?

Dude! How much Sci-fi do you watch? I don't even remember HAIF ( ) of those and struggled with the rest.

Remind me to buy some Exxon stock. Damn my procrastination.

[CDeb]

Groceries are getting stupidly expensive due to it.

Now the cost of groceries IS something that you can blame on Bush and his misguided ethanol policy.

[KatieDidIt]

Now the cost of groceries IS something that you can blame on Bush and his misguided ethanol policy.

Ethanol- The great scam of the 21st Century.

[TheNiche]

It's almost as if you don't think the Bush adminisitration had anything decision wise to do with why we are in the "high cost energy crisis" state we are in, and almost accepting of it because you can "cash" in as well if you own stock in "said" oil company. Things should be better than this.

It's sad that you (TheNiche) think the "bright side" of this is that you can profit off this and that should be cause for me to stop whining.

I could care less about profiting, I just want to live a live within my means where I don't see the rapidly increasing percentage of my income go into filling my gas tank.

I didn't say anything about a "bright side". Why are you attributing those words to me using quotation marks when I haven't used them in this thread? Moreover, I haven't even put forth the slightest notion that there is a "bright side". Look, I'm going to cash in on any opportunity I see, and have even at various times hedged my Exxon by buying JB Hunt stock. If energy prices were declining, I'd probably be invested more in airlines or hotel REITs. I'm going to find a way to make a buck one way or the other, but in the mean time, I resent being counted as a non-person on account of my ownership of ExxonMobil.

What I have been trying to tell you is that you're looking at this as a zero-sum distributive policy issue. I'm looking at it from a Pareto Efficiency standpoint. I don't care who makes the most money, I just want to max out long-run average annual GDP growth.

[jgriff]

For all you guys who think gas is too expensive...

I've worked for nearly all the major oil companies and own stock in most of them as well. If the government stops allowing them to make profits and pay me I'm not going to come to work and build plants to make your gasoline anymore. That's the bottom line, if you think someone else out there can make fuel to get you to work cheaper I suggest you buy it from them. And if you have an idea on how to make cars run cheaper I suggest you raise some funds and start doing it, you'll make a fortune.

[Pumapayam]

Now the cost of groceries IS something that you can blame on Bush and his misguided ethanol policy.

Well, they should have produced more corn dedicated for energy, not take away from the food stream.

That was the mistake on the farmers, they chose to farm the same amount of corn but sell it for ethanol.

[CDeb]

Well, they should have produced more corn dedicated for energy, not take away from the food stream.

That was the mistake on the farmers, they chose to farm the same amount of corn but sell it for ethanol.

Your ignorance of the basic concepts of supply and demand is astounding.

[jgriff]

Well, they should have produced more corn dedicated for energy, not take away from the food stream.

That was the mistake on the farmers, they chose to farm the same amount of corn but sell it for ethanol.

I guess we should send the feds out to the farms and make those farmers plant more corn.

[TheNiche]

Well, they should have produced more corn dedicated for energy, not take away from the food stream.

That was the mistake on the farmers, they chose to farm the same amount of corn but sell it for ethanol.

Doesn't work like that. Factors of production (land, labor, capital) are finite.

[cottonmather0]

Your ignorance of the basic concepts of supply and demand is astounding.

+1

Jimminy, did anyone pay attention in high school economics?

[jgriff]

+1

Jimminy, did anyone pay attention in high school economics?

I don't think high school is what it used to be.

[Pumapayam]

Doesn't work like that. Factors of production (land, labor, capital) are finite.

More so farm land is shrinking, but yes finite.

Still plenty of empty land that no one is using.

[jgriff]

More so farm land is shrinking, but yes finite.

Still plenty of empty land that no one is using.

I still don't think that you're getting how supply and demand works. Higher prices will bring more production.

I guess if you don't like that we could have some government program to force people to grow corn on their land. After all, everything else the government does turns out great, doesn't it?

[houstonmacbro]

More so Bush's policies, but yes, it was the worst thing we could have done since Vietnam..

Are we just trying to use up everyone else's oil before we use ours, or did we already run out oil on our own land. I am hearing conflicting stories with that, but I assume the former.

I think one thing we can agree on is we've picked all the 'low hanging fruit' in the oil patch. There is not going to be much more cheap oil.

Now, some people talk about peak oil being a renewable energy source (after all ... there couldn't have been THAT many dinosaurs rotting deep in the earth) and that something else is making oil. Something like a natural process that replenishes supplies.

Oh yeah, I agree ... we cannot conserve our way out of this. Not in Houston's 95 degree summers. Who is gonna sit in a house with no a/c?!? Same in the winter ... you can turn down the thermostat, but there is a point where the house is just too damned cold to be comfortable.

Anyhow, I am just rambling, but don't expect oil to zip down to $60/barrel anytime soon. And you might want to think about trading in a gas guzzler if you have one (or unless you can afford $100 fill ups).

Just rambling but those are a few of my thoughts on this matter.

[N Judah]

I still don't think that you're getting how supply and demand works. Higher prices will bring more production.

I guess if you don't like that we could have some government program to force people to grow corn on their land. After all, everything else the government does turns out great, doesn't it?

Well government programs/subsidies are the reason we are so oil-dependent in the first place. Without the trillion dollars in interstate highway subsidies, where would your job be?

The fact is that the technology is already there, if we subsidized it to the extent that we have gamed consumers into giving in to the oil industry we'd be just fine. It's like the old adage, if the computer industry were in charge of the oil industry we'd get 100 mpg and cars would be $1000 each.

If the government stops allowing them to make profits and pay me I'm not going to come to work and build plants to make your gasoline anymore.

You seem really dependent on the government. Is there some other way?

[houstonmacbro]

Well government programs/subsidies are the reason we are so oil-dependent in the first place. Without the trillion dollars in interstate highway subsidies, where would your job be?

The fact is that the technology is already there, if we subsidized it to the extent that we have gamed consumers into giving in to the oil industry we'd be just fine. It's like the old adage, if the computer industry were in charge of the oil industry we'd get 100 mpg and cars would be $1000 each.

Most computers are not that efficient. But I agree with you on the technological invention front. At last most computer manufacturers (including chip makers) are constantly improving their products mainly because the public demands it and because of fierce competition.

[N Judah]

Most computers are not that efficient. But I agree with you on the technological invention front. At last most computer manufacturers (including chip makers) are constantly improving their products mainly because the public demands it and because of fierce competition.

Silicon Valley has been dropping money like gangstas for the past few years into ventures related to energy efficiency and alternative energy. It will be interesting to see how it all turns out. They have already churned out many massively fuel-efficient cars but the trick is getting people to buy them.

[houstonmacbro]

Silicon Valley has been dropping money like gangstas for the past few years into ventures related to energy efficiency and alternative energy. It will be interesting to see how it all turns out. They have already churned out many massively fuel-efficient cars but the trick is getting people to buy them.

But seriously, do you want Dell building your car. Or an engine by Microsoft ( I am not even gonna go there...).

But an Apple car ... now you're talking ... just that I'd prolly never be able to afford it.

[jgriff]

You seem really dependent on the government. Is there some other way?

Did you watch the hearings with oil executives in congress a couple of weeks ago? They're talking about taxing the oil industry becuase they are making "too much money". That's what I'm talking about. If you don't understand that more taxes on oil are going to cause your energy prices to go up then I feel sorry for you becuase you are going to be in for a big surprise. It's not going to hurt me, I'm going to still get paid to build plants that give you the energy you use it's just going to cost you a lot more.

The oil industry gets nothing from the government. Exxon Mobil paid more in taxes last year than they made in profits. Did you?

[N Judah]

The oil industry gets nothing from the government.

war, lifestyle subsidies.

Exxon Mobil paid more in taxes last year than they made in profits. Did you?

Cite?

[jgriff]

war, lifestyle subsidies. if you don't understand this then many of the posts on this board will be difficult for you to comprehend.

While I'm finding my source on how much tax Exxon Mobil pays could you tell me what a lifestyle subsidy is? Also, how is war helping Exxon Mobil?

Nevermind, already found it...

Exxon Taxes

[RedScare]

The oil industry gets nothing from the government. Exxon Mobil paid more in taxes last year than they made in profits. Did you?

No, it didn't. However, Exxon did pay $30 Billion in taxes on it's $70.6 Billion in pre-tax profits, leaving it with $40.6 Billion in net profits. That's a 42% tax rate.

And, yes, Exxon and other oil companies get plenty from the government, from leases to drill on government land to tax incentives for exploration, etc. While it is simplistic to say Exxon made "too much" in profits, it is equally simplistic to say they get nothing from the government. In fact, considering that 80 percent of the world's oil reserves are owned by governments, the mere fact that US oil companies are allowed to own their oil reserves at all is a big deal.

BTW, your article lists gasoline taxes as an Exxon tax. That is no more a tax on Exxon than the sales tax is a tax on WalMart. They merely collect the tax on consumers of the gas for the government.

Here's the real tax.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/63131-exxo...bill-30-billion

[jgriff]

No, it didn't. However, Exxon did pay $30 Billion in taxes on it's $70.6 Billion in pre-tax profits, leaving it with $40.6 Billion in net profits. That's a 42% tax rate.

And, yes, Exxon and other oil companies get plenty from the government, from leases to drill on government land to tax incentives for exploration, etc. While it is simplistic to say Exxon made "too much" in profits, it is equally simplistic to say they get nothing from the government. In fact, considering that 80 percent of the world's oil reserves are owned by governments, the mere fact that US oil companies are allowed to own their oil reserves at all is a big deal.

See my post above for how much ExxonMobil pays in taxes.

It is not simplistic to say they get nothing from the government. They get less from the government than the government gives them so it's a negative balance. It's actually less than nothing.

They pay for those leases and the money goes into the federal treasury.

Would you rather have the government doing all this? Do you really think they could do a better job?

[RedScare]

I already commented on your link. Pump taxes are not taxes on Exxon. Cigarette taxes are not taxes on Phillip Morris. They are taxes on consumption of the products, therefore they are taxes on me, the consumer.

As for your attempt to debate "simplistic", I will not participate.

And, your last sentence? Huh? Listening to talk radio again? I never suggested that the government do anything. In fact, if you read earlier posts, you'd know that I OWN Exxon stock. I'm not complaining at all, merely correcting your misstatements.

[jgriff]

Here's the ExxonMobil income statement.

Income Statement

You can see that in the period ending Dec-2007 they paid $8 billion in income tax alone and made $11.6 billion in profit. This does not include all the other payments they make to the government for leases etc... I don't see any payments from the U.S. treasury to Exxon on here...

You also don't see the enormous amounts they spend complying with government regulations. All the refiners in the U.S. are building new diesel units right now to comply with regulations that go into affect in mid 2010. I'd say that Exxon is spending at least $1 billion complying with this regulation alone. All that cost gets passed on to you at the pump. This is what happens when you want clean air. It's not free. I'm not going to come to work everyday if they don't pay me. Rumor has it that after the diesel is done we're going to start on ultra low sulfur gasoline. If that happens get ready for even higher prices. All of this hurts big oil because it makes gasoline and diesel less competitive with up and coming alternatives like electric cars. If you think the government is doing them big favors you are dead wrong.

Their effective income tax rate is around 40%. That's a lot higher percentage than I pay and higher than any individuals tax rate.