thoughts on reproduction furniture pieces

[woolie]

Originals from Knoll, Herman Miller, etc., can be astronomically expensive. I look forward to buying new pieces from licensed producers in the future, made with labor in high wage countries, etc., but I simply can't afford it now.

Specifically I want a George Nelson slat table.

Will I be committing a serious ethical violation if I purchase an unlicensed reproduction in the $300 range instead of $900 from Herman Miller?

Similar situation with Barcelona chair and Eames lounge..

What would be an appropriate penance if I committed these sins?

Or should I just stick to the used market?

[nmainguy]

Originals from Knoll, Herman Miller, etc., can be astronomically expensive. I look forward to buying new pieces from licensed producers in the future, made with labor in high wage countries, etc., but I simply can't afford it now.

Specifically I want a George Nelson slat table.

Will I be committing a serious ethical violation if I purchase an unlicensed reproduction in the $300 range instead of $900 from Herman Miller?

Similar situation with Barcelona chair and Eames lounge..

What would be an appropriate penance if I committed these sins?

Or should I just stick to the used market?

If you are used-conscience...just make sure what you are buying is authentic. If it is authentic then it is just as good and probably better than a knock-off. I have an old Barcelona fron the MFA that's been reupholstered. I also have a pair of garden chairs my Granddad fabricated for the MFA garden in the 1930's. I've seen knock-offfs but for me they are just that: knock offs.

Go for the real deal if possible.

[Jersey01]

Used or antique pieces are often preferred, so be careful because they sometimes cost more than the new. I am not for repros, but that's just me. Imagine if you wrote a great book, painted a beautiful painting, invented the post-it note... whatever, and someone made a nearly exacting version. I think that something new that shows influence is a-okay but copies generally lack so much of the character that the original has. A Corbusier longue glides effortlessly but if you try a fake that has been used for a while it is choppy. If you look at a fake Mies Barcelona or Brno, the flat metal that makes them so beautiful is much thinner and cheapish. I also believe that copies sometimes drive up the price of the authentic. You can find many interesting pieces of modern furniture from different periods that were designed by lesser-knowns and use them until you can get that piece that you want sooo much. But there really are some cool Brazilian and Danish unknowns out there to be had for a good price, even here in Houston.

Some people make a decent argument for some cases, though. I have friends with a round table for 8 and wanted Bertoia chairs, but didn't want to spend $4500 on chairs so they bought replicas which caused them to save something ridiculous like $3000.

You really aren't going to hurt anything if you buy a fake Nelson table. Lightning will not strike you as you carry the table home. But if you are considering a whole suite (you mentioned also adding chairs, etc) I just wouldn't do it. In the end having one authentic piece in a room is much more rewarding than having a collection of fakes.

[jdbaker]

Originals from Knoll, Herman Miller, etc., can be astronomically expensive. I look forward to buying new pieces from licensed producers in the future, made with labor in high wage countries, etc., but I simply can't afford it now.

Specifically I want a George Nelson slat table.

Will I be committing a serious ethical violation if I purchase an unlicensed reproduction in the $300 range instead of $900 from Herman Miller?

Similar situation with Barcelona chair and Eames lounge..

What would be an appropriate penance if I committed these sins?

Or should I just stick to the used market?

If you're not going to buy a period original piece (e.g. old and used), then buy the inexpensive knock-off. These piece are not under copyright. Hence, it's largely legal to make and sell copies of Eames furniture. No license is needed. As for the Herman Miller reproductions, they're overpriced and not necessarily any more true to the original than the knock-offs. For instance, Herman Miller Eames shell chairs are no longer made from fiberglass. They're plastic. So, buy the knock-offs, or buy the originals. But, whatever you do, don't waste your money on the expensive Herman Miller reproductions.

[Willowisp]

Can you spot the fakes in this picture?

Remember (I forget who told me this) once you buy a new knockoff piece it just becomes used furniture, but a real designer piece should always hold its value. That said, buy what you can afford. Try to get the look you want. Don't hold back from the MCM look just because you can't afford Hans Wegner pieces. Don't fill your house with fakes because it will be obvious to most of the people who visit, but buy a few fakes if you need to, especially if you plan to use the products on a regular basis.

Do a search on lottaliving.com and designaddict.com for a lot more discussion of this topic. There are passionate people on both sides of the issue.

By the way, the black dining room chairs came from Eurway @ $85, as opposed to the $450 Jacobsen Series 7 chairs. I had a shot at a set of Jacobsens later on but just couldn't pull the trigger on $2500 for 6 dining chairs. What I really want though are a set of Cherners! Not gonna happen anytime soon.

Jason

If you're not going to buy an period original piece (e.g. old and used), then buy the inexpensive knock-off. These piece are not under copyright. Hence, it's largely legal to make and sell copies of Eames furniture. No license is needed. As for the Herman Miller reproductions, they're overpriced and not necessarily any more true to the original than the knock-offs. For instance, Herman Miller Eames shell chairs are no longer made from fiberglass. They're plastic. So, buy the knock-offs, or buy the originals. But, whatever you do, don't waste your money on the expensive Herman Miller reproductions.

[woolie]

Imagine if you wrote a great book, painted a beautiful painting, invented the post-it note... whatever, and someone made a nearly exacting version.

The thing is, though, that intellectual property rights are a careful balance of rewarding the author, but at the same time, making knowledge and art available to everyone. As such, copyrights and patents expire. Design patents, what covers furniture, expire somewhat quickly. As such, there's no need to license the design -- only the name. All of these pieces were very popular even while still under design patent protection, so I don't feel I'm particularly depriving the Mies, Jacobsen, Nelson, Knoll, etc., estates from royalties. They knew the patents would expire, but created the works anyway. It's the way it works -- I know someday the work I create myself will be in the public domain.

Anyway, yeah, I think I'll probably get a repro Nelson bench (mostly because the construction is very simple and the materials not exotic -- anyone can make one), but I'll probably save for a used or licensed Eames lounge (because they are more difficult to construct and require special processes.) I'd like the Barcelona chair as well but I'm not sure the base is sturdy enough for me.

btw, I love your Knoll sofa. It's exactly the one I wanted... but the cheapest I've found used is $4k and new is over $8k. We bought a similar design from High Fashion Home for $1200 that will last until we can buy the real thing....

It's hard to balance obtaining what we want with our salaries. The greatest irony of course is that the banner of modernism carried the promise of industrial mass production, prices affordable to everyman... yet, 80 years later, a Barcelona chair is $4,000.

[musicman]

I'd like the Barcelona chair as well but I'm not sure the base is sturdy enough for me.

or comfortable. i like the look though.

[Willowisp]

Barcelona chairs seem to be the most replicated designer chair. If you want a Barcelona chair, that's where I would say to go with the Knoll if at all possible. I've seen some low quality Barcelona chairs out there.

Is there a picture guide to the variations of the Barcelona chair? I've seen different ways of connecting the cushion to the frame. I've seen some with snaps, but mine have no snaps, instead the holders are sewn to the backs.

The base is stainless steel. I think it's plenty sturdy. It's hard to get up out of it though as it's low. They aren't really that comfortable, but they are fine for sitting in for a half hour or so now and then, looking out at the fish. That's not a lot of bang for your buck. Here's a favorite picture. They are photogenic that's for sure. But I'm always thinking I'm going to sell them for next few months' mortgages! They are my wife's favorite chairs. My favorite is that Knoll Sofa and the little orange grasshopper wannabe chair no one can figure out. I really want the Bird Chair, which is much more comfortable to me than the Womb Chair, so don't be surprised to see one of those in a future picture.

Jason

http://www.barcelona-tourist-guide.com/sho...lona-chair.html

or comfortable. i like the look though.

[apower]

I think that the thread on lottaliving previously mentioned is - http://www.lottaliving.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=2972

A lot will really depend on who is making the reproduction. We have a knock-off Arco lamp and I absolutely regret buying it because after just two years you can clearly see the poor quality. Then again, we bought Bertoia wire chair knock-offs that I have no regrets about and look good still.

[KinkaidAlum]

Can you spot the fakes in this picture?

By the way, the black dining room chairs came from Eurway @ $85, as opposed to the $450 Jacobsen Series 7 chairs. I had a shot at a set of Jacobsens later on but just couldn't pull the trigger on $2500 for 6 dining chairs. What I really want though are a set of Cherners! Not gonna happen anytime soon.

Jason

The Cherner Chair (dining) and bar stools are the only thing we sell at our store that isn't designed by us. I love the classic walnut chairs although the ebony colored ones with the arms are stunning as well. Dining chairs are too cost prohibitive for us to design ourselves (the steel frames alone put the price out of range of what most are willing to spend) and we think the Cherner is the perfect compliment to our minimalist contemporary look. If it makes you feel any better, I thought those chairs were Cherner on my first glance at your photo!

[texasdago]

Sometimes you have to pick and choose. We have a mix... an Eames LCW, Eames low table, 3 Saarinen chairs 71, a Saarinen dining table, etc. but wave knock-offs of 4 Jacobsen Series 7 chairs, a Le Corbusier chaise lounge, etc. They all work together simply and we've bought them as our budget dictated.

For example, we bought 4 Jacobsen Series 7 knock-offs for $280 or we could've bought 4 of the real thing for $1,600.00. There's no decision for us.

[Willowisp]

I read something about the Series 7 being done on an assembly line and it made me think it wasn't as big of a deal to me to get the real thing.

There's a certain satisfaction owning the real deal that can't be explained, but we've broken the bank already so there's a limit you get to (and cross over if you're obsessed like I am).

Could be (probably is) another thread but my wish list is 2 LCWs for the guest bedroom, 2 Soft Pad Desk Chairs for the desks and a Bird Chair for the Game Room. My fantasy list includes a Greta Grossman set of drawers, or a Nelson Thin Edge that would replace the Heywake. Cha-ching!

Coolest thing ever, right?

Jason

Sometimes you have to pick and choose. We have a mix... an Eames LCW, Eames low table, 3 Saarinen chairs 71, a Saarinen dining table, etc. but wave knock-offs of 4 Jacobsen Series 7 chairs, a Le Corbusier chaise lounge, etc. They all work together simply and we've bought them as our budget dictated.

For example, we bought 4 Jacobsen Series 7 knock-offs for $280 or we could've bought 4 of the real thing for $1,600.00. There's no decision for us.

[Subdude]

I have read the knockoff debates on designaddict , and they can get pretty intense.

Aren

[woolie]

As others have said, many separate IP issues here.

Utility patents, Design Patents, Copyright, Trade Dress, Trademarked Names, etc.

They all have different terms and expiration dates. So currently, if the design patent is expired but the trademark is not, you can build a 100% reverse engineered Eames LC690 as long as you don't call it an Eames LC690 or use the Eames name.

All Eames designs are copyable, e.g. Modernica, Steelform, but HM still holds the license to the Eames name.

All MCM stuff is out of design patent protection. You can make as exact replicas as you like, or as you are physically able to. So you should judge ONLY on the quality of the piece; if it has a "license" to the design they are either pulling your leg or looking for snob appeal.

The only thing 'licensing' gets you is the right to use the name and perhaps the original construction documents. On more complex pieces, these may be important if all the details cannot be successfully reverse engineered.

I suppose I'm of the opinion that the creators knew the limitations of IP protection when they created and sold the designs, so they have implicitly agreed to allow copies after X years. So they can disagree with it, or delicate flower and moan, or whatever, but the fact is that they've agreed to the terms of IP law when they applied for patents, copyrights, and trademarks. So that's how it works. You shouldn't feel any guilt as long as the piece is high quality and the design you like. The only thing Knoll or Hermann Miller gets you is a bit of snob/label appeal and perhaps higher resale value down the line.

Anyway, yesterday I bought two chairs similar to the Zographos CH70 design from Metro Modern on Milam. We're going to pick out the fabric for the re-upholstery tonight. Also bought a beautiful credenza, although I don't believe it has any significant designer's name attached to it. It was still quite expensive.

Our immediate needs are a rug, bookshelf, and low table. Still thinking about the Nelson knock-offs. Not sure what do about the rug. Eames shelves are too expensive and maybe slightly too bold. I also still want the Eames lounge long term, but that will be a save-up because they're difficult to produce, I'll likely buy a real one.

ps.

I wish either Metro Modern or Metro Retro would change their name. I keep getting Joe's and Travis's store names confused.

[texasdago]

From a practical standpoint, keep this in mind Willowisp... LCW are beautiful chairs. Simply beautiful to look at. Sitting? Well... after a while, your back starts to hurt, the lower back specifically. So, just keep that in mind if you want to use them as everyday chairs. Don't get me wrong - I craved an LCW and am so glad we had one.

My must-have was an Eames shell rocker. We eventually got one through Russel Prince - a burnt orangey Modernica with all that beautiful fiberglass.

[texas911]

I have no problems with replicas, but as with anything, there are bad replicas and good ones. As pointed out by other posters, the "patent" has expired long ago so there is no reason for good replicas to be 100% the same as the originals. I have a couple of Corbusier chairs that are replicas, and they even have real feather cushions like the original design. So I say go for it. You'll save a ton, and since nothing today is "original" buying from Knoll is just to expensive.

BTW, don't buy more than 2 Barcelona chairs, they were designed for the king and queen of Spain. They only look good in pairs.

[Subdude]

I have no problems with replicas, but as with anything, there are bad replicas and good ones. As pointed out by other posters, the "patent" has expired long ago so there is no reason for good replicas to be 100% the same as the originals. I have a couple of Corbusier chairs that are replicas, and they even have real feather cushions like the original design. So I say go for it. You'll save a ton, and since nothing today is "original" buying from Knoll is just to expensive.

BTW, don't buy more than 2 Barcelona chairs, they were designed for the king and queen of Spain. They only look good in pairs.

You know, I have a friend that says the same thing about the Barcelona chairs: that you have to buy two, and preferably the matching coffee table as well. Isn't that a bit much? I don't really have the space for a full set.