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Midtown Could Use A Change


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I get so confused trying to understand exactly what Midtowners want. After thinking about it I think that they should use Bellaire perhaps as more of model in trying to create the environment that I believe works. I think that instead of trying to be something that it is not and trying to adopt methods of growth used in other cities by people who may not have any understanding of Houston, that they should use a model like Bellaire which is very successful and is actually rooted in Houston. Drive through Bellaire and see what I am talking about. You will not see a bunch of bars, and vacant blocks everywhere. You will see an area that understands the importance of separating its residential areas from its commercial areas and rising property values that exceed many areas in Houston.

Additionally, I think a lot of what I have read and heard is a bunch of smoke and mirors especially after reading the Houston Chronicle's articles Midtown doesn't seem to be this hot bed of activity at all. I think it is an area that is going through change, but lacks real direction. It sounds like there is some type of internal conflict between groups being unable to agree on the direction Midtown should take. The articles basically state that development is way behind and that there are many city blocks that have yet to be developed. Sometimes it sounds like Midtowners believe that they are going to build a new downtown or something, that makes no sense at all. I think it is because it is a small neighborhood perhaps trying to do too much. It is downtowns neighborhood and it took up the slack for a while during light rail construction taking place downtown. Now, it has become this neighborhood and downtown being completed will certainly assist its growth, and hopefully it will get back on track in terms of direction. It sounds like Midtown really does want a friendly environment with people walking around, etc. and not an alternative for businesses seeking to go downtown and into a real central business district, which downtown is. I have noticed fewer businesses making poor long term decisions about opening their businesses in Midtown lately and selecting to make more of a long term choice for their business in downtown now that it is starting to come back strong. I think that less businesses, bars, clubs, parking congestion will actually give this wonderful residential area a chance to do really thrive and do well with downtowns commercial growth supporting it and attracting more residents to the area. I also want to ad that drug stores are probably good for any neighborhood to have, so there has to be some bend here. The fuss over the drug store really stood out to an extent as one sign of conflicting views as opposed instead of hearing about not wanting to have a night club in an area to increase parking problems and having beer bottles and drunks walking in your driveway and lawn. What do you think ?

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I get so confused trying to understand exactly what Midtowners want. After thinking about it I think that they should use Bellaire perhaps as more of model in trying to create the environment that I believe works. I think that instead of trying to be something that it is not and trying to adopt methods of growth used in other cities by people who may not have any understanding of Houston, that they should use a model like Bellaire which is very successful and is actually rooted in Houston. Drive through Bellaire and see what I am talking about. You will not see a bunch of bars, and vacant blocks everywhere. You will see an area that understands the importance of separating its residential areas from its commercial areas and rising property values that exceed many areas in Houston.

Additionally, I think a lot of what I have read and heard is a bunch of smoke and mirors especially after reading the Houston Chronicle's articles Midtown doesn't seem to be this hot bed of activity at all. I think it is an area that is going through change, but lacks real direction. It sounds like there is some type of internal conflict between groups being unable to agree on the direction Midtown should take. The articles basically state that development is way behind and that there are many city blocks that have yet to be developed. Sometimes it sounds like Midtowners believe that they are going to build a new downtown or something, that makes no sense at all. I think it is because it is a small neighborhood perhaps trying to do too much. It is downtowns neighborhood and it took up the slack for a while during light rail construction taking place downtown. Now, it has become this neighborhood and downtown being completed will certainly assist its growth, and hopefully it will get back on track in terms of direction. It sounds like Midtown really does want a friendly environment with people walking around, etc. and not an alternative for businesses seeking to go downtown and into a real central business district, which downtown is. I have noticed fewer businesses making poor long term decisions about opening their businesses in Midtown lately and selecting to make more of a long term choice for their business in downtown now that it is starting to come back strong. I think that less businesses, bars, clubs, parking congestion will actually give this wonderful residential area a chance to do really thrive and do well with downtowns commercial growth supporting it and attracting more residents to the area. I also want to ad that drug stores are probably good for any neighborhood to have, so there has to be some bend here. The fuss over the drug store really stood out to an extent as one sign of conflicting views as opposed instead of hearing about not wanting to have a night club in an area to increase parking problems and having beer bottles and drunks walking in your driveway and lawn. What do you think ?

Midtown and Bellaire are two completely different animals like mentioned above. I think there needs to move compact and dense development considering it is sandwiched between DT and the Medical Center. It needs to be something different. It needs to be an area where there are people who do not want to live in another suburb transplanted into the city; especially considering its location.

We do not rules that allow only construction of large singly family homes. The costs of those homes considering the value of the land would be astronomical. Plus, no one who would want a home would not want the amount of traffic going through the area. For people to live there, and given the amount of land available, it has to be more dense development, it has to be denser and more mixed development.

Also, it seems like the residential is developing on either side of Midtown and the commercial is going to be located in the center. I think it is a good way for the dev to happen. It keeps the activities that will draw people to Midtown close to the rail.

BTW, regarding all the CVSes and the Walgreens being built, I would like to know what % of income of the CVS at Grey and Bagby is made from the parking fees they charge. Six dollars a spot considering the amount of traffic they get almost every night I would think it would be a substantial amount.

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BTW, regarding all the CVSes and the Walgreens being built, I would like to know what % of income of the CVS at Grey and Bagby is made from the parking fees they charge. Six dollars a spot considering the amount of traffic they get almost every night I would think it would be a substantial amount.

i didn't know that was happening. sounds like they are doing a valuable service if people are using the spaces every night. if more businesses come in with little to no parking sounds like the on street parking situation will only become worse and will result in less people going to midtown.

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It really does seem like one big mish-mash in midtown. My observation is that it is very much like Adams Morgan in DC which was once low-class (bead shops, burrito shops, t-shirt shops), multi-ethnic, no parking, and just plain ... unplanned. AM is now much of the same except with million dollar condos and rents through the roof. Still one big mish-mash, but just more expensive shops everywhere, no parking, and such.

If that's our idea of midtown's future, so be it ... I live it and don't wish to return. I agree, midtown doesn't seem to have much direction, but what areas in Houston do ... that is the result of our notorious lack of zoning, save for cookie-cutter master planned communities that have sprouted up here.

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It really does seem like one big mish-mash in midtown. My observation is that it is very much like Adams Morgan in DC which was once low-class (bead shops, burrito shops, t-shirt shops), multi-ethnic, no parking, and just plain ... unplanned. AM is now much of the same except with million dollar condos and rents through the roof. Still one big mish-mash, but just more expensive shops everywhere, no parking, and such.

If that's our idea of midtown's future, so be it ... I live it and don't wish to return. I agree, midtown doesn't seem to have much direction, but what areas in Houston do ... that is the result of our notorious lack of zoning, save for cookie-cutter master planned communities that have sprouted up here.

i'm not quite sure how zoning would solve this. i can see zoning stopping commericial development entering neighborhoods. people in midtown want businesses close to residential. the majoritiy of the complaints here tend to be related to how the businesses are designed i.e. the parking lot is in the front or just too big.

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i'm not quite sure how zoning would solve this. i can see zoning stopping commericial development entering neighborhoods. people in midtown want businesses close to residential. the majoritiy of the complaints here tend to be related to how the businesses are designed i.e. the parking lot is in the front or just too big.

You're kinda proving my point ... here in Houston no one thinks zoning is right or could improve things, so we opt for an 'everything AND the kitchen sink' approach to development. No wonder the city looks like such a hodgepodge of ideas with absolutely NO cohesiveness throughout.

Nothing is planned ... how could we expect it to?

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You're kinda proving my point ... here in Houston no one thinks zoning is right or could improve things, so we opt for an 'everything AND the kitchen sink' approach to development. No wonder the city looks like such a hodgepodge of ideas with absolutely NO cohesiveness throughout.

Nothing is planned ... how could we expect it to?

zoning and planning are two different things. having an area zoned doesn't mean the development(s) will be planned.

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BTW, regarding all the CVSes and the Walgreens being built, I would like to know what % of income of the CVS at Grey and Bagby is made from the parking fees they charge. Six dollars a spot considering the amount of traffic they get almost every night I would think it would be a substantial amount.

they only charge thursday-saturday that i know of. there are plenty of spots on the street, as well as the Post garage, available on the other days.

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I have noticed fewer businesses making poor long term decisions about opening their businesses in Midtown lately and selecting to make more of a long term choice for their business in downtown now that it is starting to come back strong.

Sounds like either 1) you're a business owner in downtown or 2) a resident in downtown.

Downtown is not coming back strong. Quite a number of bars/clubs have closed in the past several months alone. Have you been dowtown after 5pm on a weekday or on weekends? As for businesses not opening in Midtown and choosing downtown instead, I don't think that's the case. A new piano bar is going in on Hadley and Lousiana. A new seafood restaurant is going in on McGowen and Travis. I believe Camden apartments and retail is going in on that SuperBlock on Main. What businesses do you know of that have decided not to open in Midtown and instead open in downtown?

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they only charge thursday-saturday that i know of. there are plenty of spots on the street, as well as the Post garage, available on the other days.

I live in the area so I usually just walk so you may be right. However, I know a good number of the spaces in CVS parking lot at Grey and Bagby are leased out to a valet service. If they are making good money off this little side business then I would imagine it would be a harder sale for Midtown to discourage city block size parking lots.

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It really does seem like one big mish-mash in midtown. My observation is that it is very much like Adams Morgan in DC which was once low-class (bead shops, burrito shops, t-shirt shops), multi-ethnic, no parking, and just plain ... unplanned. AM is now much of the same except with million dollar condos and rents through the roof. Still one big mish-mash, but just more expensive shops everywhere, no parking, and such.

If that's our idea of midtown's future, so be it ... I live it and don't wish to return. I agree, midtown doesn't seem to have much direction, but what areas in Houston do ... that is the result of our notorious lack of zoning, save for cookie-cutter master planned communities that have sprouted up here.

I don't want to imply something you're not, but I still want to make this point:

I am not of the opinion that multi-million dollar condos, fancy places to shop, or people with a lot of money is what makes an area great. Everyone on this board seems obsessed with all these great projects going up, including me. But I'd like to see more development in the downtown and surrounding areas that can also be purchased/rented by middle class people. People who make 45-70,000, who may be single or even have a kid or two. I mean, sure, it's great for our image, whatever. I think these areas should be affordable to people who aren't rich or aren't dirt poor, but are right in the middle; most of America. It irritates me that if I don't have a six-figure salary or don't want go in debt or don't want to live in a craphole, that I can't have a decent place in such an area. I'm bothered that since I don't have that money, that I'm forced to live in the suburbs. Maybe I'm just unaware of areas that I'm dreaming of, who knows.

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I don't want to imply something you're not, but I still want to make this point:

I am not of the opinion that multi-million dollar condos, fancy places to shop, or people with a lot of money is what makes an area great. Everyone on this board seems obsessed with all these great projects going up, including me. But I'd like to see more development in the downtown and surrounding areas that can also be purchased/rented by middle class people. People who make 45-70,000, who may be single or even have a kid or two. I mean, sure, it's great for our image, whatever. I think these areas should be affordable to people who aren't rich or aren't dirt poor, but are right in the middle; most of America. It irritates me that if I don't have a six-figure salary or don't want go in debt or don't want to live in a craphole, that I can't have a decent place in such an area. I'm bothered that since I don't have that money, that I'm forced to live in the suburbs. Maybe I'm just unaware of areas that I'm dreaming of, who knows.

Hey bro, I am not sure what you're implying, but I do not live that lifestyle either. I am not 6-figures nor anywhere near it so mid-town and a bunch of other pricey areas are out of my price range (actually, I think they are out of a lot of people's price ranges too considering the whole mess with sub-prime loans and other tricks of financing real estate that people really cannot afford ... but I digress).

I think we are on the same page here.

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Hey bro, I am not sure what you're implying, but I do not live that lifestyle either. I am not 6-figures nor anywhere near it so mid-town and a bunch of other pricey areas are out of my price range (actually, I think they are out of a lot of people's price ranges too considering the whole mess with sub-prime loans and other tricks of financing real estate that people really cannot afford ... but I digress).

I think we are on the same page here.

k, cool. And it was more of a statement to a general issue. I just quoted you b/c of the comparison you made between it going from crap to glitz.

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I don't want to imply something you're not, but I still want to make this point:

I am not of the opinion that multi-million dollar condos, fancy places to shop, or people with a lot of money is what makes an area great. Everyone on this board seems obsessed with all these great projects going up, including me. But I'd like to see more development in the downtown and surrounding areas that can also be purchased/rented by middle class people. People who make 45-70,000, who may be single or even have a kid or two. I mean, sure, it's great for our image, whatever. I think these areas should be affordable to people who aren't rich or aren't dirt poor, but are right in the middle; most of America. It irritates me that if I don't have a six-figure salary or don't want go in debt or don't want to live in a craphole, that I can't have a decent place in such an area. I'm bothered that since I don't have that money, that I'm forced to live in the suburbs. Maybe I'm just unaware of areas that I'm dreaming of, who knows.

I'm not sure if therapy will help but you could start there. there are many places to live that aren't in downtown nor in midtown but are very close. you aren't forced to live in the suburbs at all. you have to have a vision of places will satisfy your daily needs first, wishes later. if image is that important to you, then you will be struggling for the rest of your life. it is amazing what a little vision will do for an old place on the east side (or whereever you decide).

there will always be places where you just can't afford to live but there are many nice places that you can afford to live. it's all about priorities. i would have never dreamed 10 yrs ago that i'd be living where i am currently, but i've really made it a place that i can be comfortable and enjoy myself. you're still young so you have time to work out your issues.

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Just because something is dressed up nicely doesn't make it gltizy ... remember, a pig in a dress is still ... a pig.

But I am right with you. It does seem like many people (at least the vocal ones) on this board are upper-end incomes. They think nothing of prices quoted in the mid hundred, $200s, $300s or beyond.

Where all this money is coming from beats me because I do not know too many folks (percentage wise) that can afford that kinda real estate.

Honestly, I think a lot of people are stretched out way beyond their means, but would rather die than give up their high end lifestyle, cars, etc.

Also, and this is WAY off topic here (please indulge me), but even though I make substantially less than what appears to be the majority of people, I am probably better off financially because I have NO debt except for a car payment and live a rather frugal lifestyle. I have a bit of cash in the bank, saving more and more through investing, etc. and live WITHIN my means.

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I'm not sure if therapy will help but you could start there. there are many places to live that aren't in downtown nor in midtown but are very close. you aren't forced to live in the suburbs at all. you have to have a vision of places will satisfy your daily needs first, wishes later. if image is that important to you, then you will be struggling for the rest of your life. it is amazing what a little vision will do for an old place on the east side (or whereever you decide).

there will always be places where you just can't afford to live but there are many nice places that you can afford to live. it's all about priorities. i would have never dreamed 10 yrs ago that i'd be living where i am currently, but i've really made it a place that i can be comfortable and enjoy myself. you're still young so you have time to work out your issues.

Yeah, therapy only makes things worse. Thanks for the suggestion though.

I'm just obsessed with the idea of mixed areas that are walkable, bike-rideable, or transit-convenient. How many places are there like that "close" to downtown that are actually conducive to my desires? Is the east end? And will future LRT lines become just as expensive once laid?

Forgive me, I'm a suburb boy dreaming of city-life.

And maybe I wasn't clear, but I don't care about image, hence the "whatever."

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But I am right with you. It does seem like many people (at least the vocal ones) on this board are upper-end incomes. They think nothing of prices quoted in the mid hundred, $200s, $300s or beyond.

Where all this money is coming from beats me because I do not know too many folks (percentage wise) that can afford that kinda real estate.

Honestly, I think a lot of people are stretched out way beyond their means, but would rather die than give up their high end lifestyle, cars, etc.

Also, and this is WAY off topic here (please indulge me), but even though I make substantially less than what appears to be the majority of people, I am probably better off financially because I have NO debt except for a car payment and live a rather frugal lifestyle. I have a bit of cash in the bank, saving more and more through investing, etc. and live WITHIN my means.

it surprises me how many people live beyond their means. but at the same time, you shouldn't be amazed at how much money people have. if you're any good at saving (say 401k) it is amazing how much you can have over time. i just turned 40 and put away quite a bit of my paycheck for retirement each week. yes i could spend it instead but i don't want to be put in a bad position when i become a senior. i know quite a few people who retired in their mid 40's and are living a great life.

as long as my car starts, has a working cd player and is reliable i'm happy. i don't need a mercedes or bmw.

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Yeah, therapy only makes things worse. Thanks for the suggestion though.

I'm just obsessed with the idea of mixed areas that are walkable, bike-rideable, or transit-convenient. How many places are there like that "close" to downtown that are actually conducive to my desires? Is the east end? And will future LRT lines become just as expensive once laid?

Forgive me, I'm a suburb boy dreaming of city-life.

And maybe I wasn't clear, but I don't care about image, hence the "whatever."

don't be so close minded about therapy it might help you with your obsession. my area is walkable, bike-rideable and convenient to transit. i can easily (less than 5 mins) walk to library, park, convenience store. 10 min bike (or bus) ride i have access to mall and various other commercial establishments including 1 large and 1 neighborhood grocery store....and guess what i don't live in midtown or downtown. i live on the eastside.

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Also, and this is WAY off topic here (please indulge me), but even though I make substantially less than what appears to be the majority of people, I am probably better off financially because I have NO debt except for a car payment and live a rather frugal lifestyle. I have a bit of cash in the bank, saving more and more through investing, etc. and live WITHIN my means.

Me too. I realize that status symbols are a bunch of crap, however, for me it's not just the location of "downtown", but it's the liveable lifestyle that it has (or will) that I want. It's irritating b/c here it's a luxury, while in some other cities, it's normalcy for everyone.

don't be so close minded about therapy it might help you with your obsession. my area is walkable, bike-rideable and convenient to transit. i can easily (less than 5 mins) walk to library, park, convenience store. 10 min bike (or bus) ride i have access to mall and various other commercial establishments including 1 large and 1 neighborhood grocery store....and guess what i don't live in midtown or downtown. i live on the eastside.

Cool. I'll check it out when I move back. Do you live close to 45?

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But I am right with you. It does seem like many people (at least the vocal ones) on this board are upper-end incomes. They think nothing of prices quoted in the mid hundred, $200s, $300s or beyond.

I'm not in the mortgage business, but the typical number that gets thrown around a lot is that in order to qualify for a home loan of a particular size, the mortgage payment cannot exceed 20% of household income. So at 7% interest, in order to afford:

  • $200k, it takes about $80k per year
  • $300k, it takes about $120k per year
  • $400k, it takes about $160k per year
  • ...and for every additional $100k of value, it takes about $40k of income to qualify.

The truth of course is that is much more complicated, but it gives you a basic handle on things. Also of interest, the median household in Texas earns $46,645 per year, which would qualify them for about a $117,500 home. Below is the price distribution of MLS-listed homes sold in Texas. Based on my calculations, this would seem to match expectations.

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I'm not in the mortgage business, but the typical number that gets thrown around a lot is that in order to qualify for a home loan of a particular size, the mortgage payment cannot exceed 20% of household income. So at 7% interest, in order to afford:
  • $200k, it takes about $80k per year
  • $300k, it takes about $120k per year
  • $400k, it takes about $160k per year
  • ...and for every additional $100k of value, it takes about $40k of income to qualify.

The truth of course is that is much more complicated, but it gives you a basic handle on things. Also of interest, the median household in Texas earns $46,645 per year, which would qualify them for about a $117,500 home. Below is the price distribution of MLS-listed homes sold in Texas. Based on my calculations, this would seem to match expectations.

Very nice info, thanks. I know you said it's more complicated, but do you know if those estimates are based off of someone who is single or is that for a family?

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Cool. I'll check it out when I move back. Do you live close to 45?

by car, i live 2 mins from 45 and about 4-5 from 610 and 225. it wasn't til after i moved here that it became obvious that this is a good location for me. i can make it to market square in less than 15 mins by car or hop on the bus and rail and hopefully make it in 45-50 mins or so.

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The figures I've gotten in my real estate classes are 28 percent of income or 36 percent of income minus other major expenses.

So replacing niche's numbers w/ yours, that means according to your classes that, "in order to qualify for a home loan of a particular size, the mortgage payment cannot exceed 28% of household income?"

correct?

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The figures I've gotten in my real estate classes are 28 percent of income or 36 percent of income minus other major expenses.

Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if that is what is being used more recently. We've had a really lax lending environment for the past several years (and still do, in the bigger context of things), so that would seem reasonable enough.

But interestingly, that allows the median household in Texas to afford a $165,000 home.

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Right, no comparing

and I love Midtown no matter what they say! :lol:

Correct. ...Midtown and Bellaire are 2 different places today and hopefully it will develop and do as well as bellaire someday. It sure looks like they are doing something right in bellaire and perhaps one day Midtown will be able to get on its feet and be as successful as bellaire. However, i don't see it happening until some change is made and people stop to consider the longer term aspects of the area and deciding what is really important and actually meaning it.

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