One Park Place: Multifamily At 1400 McKinney St.

[houstonfella]

Let's not bash on NYC, a great town with can in no way be compared to Houston. Let's get back on track, this is a thread about the Park Tower.

Of course no one in New York would dis Houston

I'm excited, as any proud Houstonian would be, that we will have a beautiful downtown park with a brand new residential highrise approximately 501 feet tall. That isn't even considering Houston Pavilions. Life is good. And who would want to compare the Big Apple (loud, confining and rude) with H-town? Not me.

Edited October 7, 2006 by houstonfella

[shasta]

And let's not worry.... Houston does not and will not not be like New York. New York is overpopulated and basically gross. Houston is far more laid back and because we will welcome a new downtown park, doesn't mean we will be anything like a Yankee NY. (thank the gods). Besides, the Bayou City is far more charming than the over-crowded, taxi honking, PATHETIC New York. Kudos to the Bayou City. We rule and always will.

I don't know if you are jealous or insecure or just afraid of what you don't understand but I think we as Houstonians should have more class than to go with the "bash New York City" card.

There are many valuable lessons (both good and bad) to learned from the growth and development of New York City. I can tell you that New York City has something that Houstonians "hope" one day to have - A CULTURE that's distinctly their OWN- one that New Yorkers can identify themselves with and one they are VERY proud of. A culture and spirit that the WHOLE WORLD knows.

As much as I hate to admit it but due to our many mistakes of the past Houston is devoid of culture and was re-organized as a prototypical sunbelt city that erased it's past and early charms and is now scurrying to create a new one.

You may bash New York City but I can tell you the average New Yorker has no OPINION of Houston, Texas - I know that for a fact. They just don't have any desire to care. And as long as we have backward, red neck, minor league aspirations we will continue to be held in so low esteem. People don't make arrangements to visit Houston because it's a charming place -they visit Houston because they have to.

I am a native Houston, and will devote my life to giving Houston some semblage of culture but I don't want to get it by constantly comparing ourselves to others. We need to be and act and consider what is the best action to acheive the 'big picture' and hopefully, if we think this out and make smart decisions- Houston will someday be a magical, charming place. A place that it's citizen's identify with and are proud of and a place where others would dream to visit.

....but in all honesty- we are far from that reality, but we are moving in the right direction and that is all we can do.

Edited October 15, 2006 by shasta

[nmainguy]

IAs much as I hate to admit it but due to our many mistakes of the past Houston is devoid of culture

Define culture

You may bash New York City but I can tell you the average New Yorker has no OPINION of Houston, Texas - I know that for a fact.

State your fact. What is it?

Edited October 16, 2006 by nmainguy

[WesternGulf]

uh-oh

[TheNiche]

They just don't have any desire to care.

Their loss.

[shasta]

As much as I hate to admit it but due to our many mistakes of the past Houston is devoid of culture

Define culture:

I'm talking about how it pertains to the city form and how the brand 'Houston Culture' defines itself and the opportunities we COULD HAVE HAD. I'm not saying Houston doesn't have Culture because it does (and it should be proud) but it doesn't translate into our current city form.

Most of it's early qualities have been erased- downtown used to be the true center of the city a dense mixture of residential/ business/ and entertainment. Gone is the German District of downtown- erased is their contribution whereas New York managed to preserve it's early history- Little Italy district is one of the many examples. Today we are desperately praying that the surface lots of downtown will be redeveloped- there used to be unique buildings on those lots- do a little research you can find them.

Many of the downtown festivals have vanished- We no longer have the ceremonial No-Tsu-Oh festival which used to be the biggest event of Houston culture and one the city identified itself with. New York has managed to preserve it's festivals and traditions. We do have the Rodeo and I really don't care what the rest of the country thinks but I'm glad we are continuing that tradition.

The commuter rail to Galveston that many downtown residents would catch at Union Station was replaced by I-45. Downtown residents no longer have the option of walking to the station to spend a 'afternoon at the beach' and catching a train to be back in time for dinner.

The street cars that used to connect downtown to the 'street car' suburbs of Montrose and the Heights are gone.

The Heights and Montrose have re-created themselves as 'cultural districts' and are among the ones trying to resist total turn-over as but not as they were originally planned.

These are all experiences (plus many more) that citizens remember as defining the cuture of the city. I honestly believe that the new downtown park with the other addtions is going to help GREATLY in creating a sense of place. People will have memories of these activities and and they will be engraved as relating to Houston culture just as going to Coney Island or a Yankees game is for New Yorkers.

You may bash New York City but I can tell you the average New Yorker has no OPINION of Houston, Texas - I know that for a fact.

State your fact. What is it?

I've been to New York many times and always talk up Houston, it's progress and it's good qualities. Most don't really care about Houston -they have NO mental image of it. Maybe this is beacause we haven't created one for them- what....freeways, unplanned development, lack of mixed use districts????

[bachanon]

You may bash New York City but I can tell you the average New Yorker has no OPINION of Houston, Texas - I know that for a fact. They just don't have any desire to care. And as long as we have backward, red neck, minor league aspirations we will continue to be held in so low esteem. People don't make arrangements to visit Houston because it's a charming place -they visit Houston because they have to.

two new yorkers i know just recently bought a condo in houston's museum district because they love to visit here so often. friends from california to the east coast adore houston. they get it. they understand our UNIQUE CULTURE. we are quirky, tolerant, diverse, creative. we are not compact. this is the main reason out of towners can't get their brains around houston culture. it IS ashame that many of us want to measure ouselves against new york city. we are not and will never be new york city.

i know several new yorkers who have very positive opinions of houston. to say that new yorkers have NO OPINION of houston is to admit that you don't know very many new yorkers. any respectable wall street investor knows EXACTLY where houston is and what it's about.

i loathe NYC and i dread each time i have to go there. i'd choose houston hands down.

[TheNiche]

Most of it's early qualities have been erased- downtown used to be the true center of the city a dense mixture of residential/ business/ and entertainment. Gone is the German District of downtown- erased is their contribution whereas New York managed to preserve it's early history- Little Italy district is one of the many examples. Today we are desperately praying that the surface lots of downtown will be redeveloped- there used to be unique buildings on those lots- do a little research you can find them.

Many of the downtown festivals have vanished- We no longer have the ceremonial No-Tsu-Oh festival which used to be the biggest event of Houston culture and one the city identified itself with. New York has managed to preserve it's festivals and traditions. We do have the Rodeo and I really don't care what the rest of the country thinks but I'm glad we are continuing that tradition.

The commuter rail to Galveston that many downtown residents would catch at Union Station was replaced by I-45. Downtown residents no longer have the option of walking to the station to spend a 'afternoon at the beach' and catching a train to be back in time for dinner.

The street cars that used to connect downtown to the 'street car' suburbs of Montrose and the Heights are gone.

The Heights and Montrose have re-created themselves as 'cultural districts' and are among the ones trying to resist total turn-over as but not as they were originally planned.

What was will never be again. Live always for the present.

I've been to New York many times and always talk up Houston, it's progress and it's good qualities. Most don't really care about Houston -they have NO mental image of it. Maybe this is beacause we haven't created one for them- what....freeways, unplanned development, lack of mixed use districts????

Why should we be concerned about creating a city for non-residents? Live always for yourself.

[Montrose1100]

I'm talking about how it pertains to the city form and how the brand 'Houston Culture' defines itself and the opportunities we COULD HAVE HAD. I'm not saying Houston doesn't have Culture because it

... Blah blah blah blah blah...

but I can tell you the average New Yorker has no OPINION of Houston, Texas - I know that for a fact.

Your statements are pointless. Houston doesn't want to be like New York. Not every city does. So just because we didn't preserve this or save that, that makes us not great?

boo hoo. nNot every great city must follow the footsteps of another, "go against the grain", be innovative. And might I add not every city wants to be like NY. So get over it, and yourself. the end.

[KinkaidAlum]

How are we going against the grain in Houston?

Most of what gets built in Houston IS THE GRAIN.

Drive-thru CVS...

Strip Malls galore...

Cookie Cutter KB Homes communites that sprout up like mushrooms...

And we are STILL destroying what little history we have left to build surface parking lots downtown or a possible Borders in River Oaks.

Big Whoop. That is anytown U.S.A.

The only thing that makes Houston unique is that we allow these things to be built in the CENTER of our city on property that has so much more potential.

Now, it isn't all doom and gloom. The first light rail line, Main Street Square, the new dowtown park and the potential of the Buffalo Bayou are all steps in the right direction. The blue bayou thing is totally cool and completely unique. I love that.

[TheNiche]

How are we going against the grain in Houston?

Most of what gets built in Houston IS THE GRAIN.

There are two possible interpretations of "the grain". One is the grain of the market economy and the other is the grain of the popular economy, which has its roots in politics and current architectural paradigms. You should have very little trouble guessing which side I take.

The only thing that makes Houston unique is that we allow these things to be built in the CENTER of our city on property that has so much more potential.

You speak of this extraordinary potential that is being missed out on. I must disagree. In cities with strong urban planning (and there are plenty of examples), land is artificially removed from development by various ordinances and zoning policies, thus focusing all of the FINITE potentials available to that city into a relatively small area. This is done to propogate the architectural and aesthetic paradigms of this particular decade.

In Houston, our potentials are spread out. The rising tide lifts all boats. The changes to particular neighborhoods are slow and evolving even if, on the whole, the metro area is booming. From the perspective of a homeowner, I'd hate to have the City steal my appreciation potentials away to other areas that they deemed more deserving for whatever arbitrary reason. Also, if I owned a home in a neighborhood that was underserved by retail and a CVS was prevented from building on a vacant lot by way of regulation, I'd be pissed. Better a CVS in any form than dirt.

[The Great Hizzy!]

What the hardcore urbanist needs to understand (and I'm not posting bout anyone in particular, just about a general class of individual who is becoming more obnoxious as the years come and go) is that he's not nearly as impressive as he thinks he is. He's just not. He also needs to understand that this is 2006 and not 1926. People just aren't as awed by New York anymore. They just aren't. The fact that New Yorkers--or at least a handful of them--have decided not to join the rest of the country, to isolate themselves instead, and to fawn over their compressed landscape of dated, cookie-cutter (that's right, I said it) brick buildings built two or three stories above the ground and with little landscaping or parking isn't the big deal that the coffee house crew think it is. To them, yes. To the rest of the country, no.

And the more I hear/read about this self-righteousness, the more I'm inclined to say that there's no difference between the suburban snob and the urban snob other than the latter chooses not to drive or have a yard. No real difference. Both are waaay too impressed with themselves.

But so it goes.

[WesternGulf]

Also, if I owned a home in a neighborhood that was underserved by retail and a CVS was prevented from building on a vacant lot by way of regulation, I'd be pissed. Better a CVS in any form than dirt.

I do not think anyone is complaining mostly about the CVS or any business that enters the Houston market but more of how the land is used and how the design does not service the pedestrian. There should not be a reason why someone walks three full blocks in midtown and the maximum number of businesses they pass up are three on what are suppose to be "fully developed" blocks.

[The Great Hizzy!]

^^^

And here's another problem I have. If the pedestrian needs to be served in Houston in a better way (an idea with which I personally agree) then those who have an interest in such need to be more vocal and more proactive. I don't expect developers to develop in a way that is outside the box of what's been successful for them. The fact is that well over 75% of development in this country caters to the person who's willing to drive--even prefers to drive. Pedestrian neighborhoods are born out of a verifiable committment by those who'll choose--demand, in fact--to live there.

In Houston (in Dallas, in Atlanta, in Phoenix, in most cities, in fact), that's a small percentage but not nearly as small as the developer thinks. The developer needs to be influenced by a vocal and insistent market of buyers/renters. If the potential buyers are half-committed, then the developer isn't influenced to develop Midtown in a way that the urbanist desires. There will still be a lot of the quasi-urban or even suburban style design and development that infuriates today's urbanist.

In this, I tend to more "blame" the neighborhood groups that are supposed to be in charge of forming a vision for these near-DT communities. There seems to be only a faint level of influence on development in these communities.

[WesternGulf]

Do you realize how much NO ZONING influences how a city is built no matter how many neighborhood organizations you have? You will get a huge bite me from developers.

[The Great Hizzy!]

Oh, I agree, and with that I was framing my comments as the pertain to Houston, in particular. Because Houston doesn't have governmental controls for 'X' type of development, developers will continue to develop in a way that's cost effective and serves the supposed interest of their clients. If the client begins to demand different from what's being offered, the developer begins to change his tune.

The fact that 4th Ward, Midtown, the Warehouse District, Rice Military and other intown neighborhoods have seen the change in development over the last ten years that they have speaks to this. Still not 100% what the urbanist wants but certainly a change from the past.

Would this be expediated with aggressive zoning? Yes. No argument there.

[Houston19514]

Do you realize how much NO ZONING influences how a city is built no matter how many neighborhood organizations you have? You will get a huge bite me from developers.

Nobody on this board has ever been able, or bothered to take the time, to show how much NO ZONING influences how a city is built. Personally, I think the lack of zoning has had very little effect. I will ask again, specifically, please, how has the lack of zoning caused Houston to develop differently from similarly-situated cities (e.g., Dallas, Atlanta, Phoenix, maybe Denver)? Just to kick things off, the presence or absence of drive-through CVS's with large parking lots is not a result of the lack of or presence of zoning. That has more to do with other land-use regulations, which Houston indeed has (e.g., parking requirements, setback requirements, etc.)

[WesternGulf]

I will ask again, specifically, please, how has the lack of zoning caused Houston to develop differently from similarly-situated cities (e.g., Dallas, Atlanta, Phoenix, maybe Denver)?

Phoenix may be the exception, but contrary to popular belief, Atlanta and Dallas does have greater control of how the core of their city is developed. I am not saying every development that has taken place has the pedestrian in mind, but what would places like the West End, Deep Ellum, Knox Henderson, Greenville Avenue, and many other places in central Dallas look like if they were located in Houston? Would plans such as the West Village or the many projects for Uptown even come to fruition if the land wasn't regulated. Intown ATL has identity. Some of those century old retail districts are still pretty lively among some of its older neighborhoods and developers respect that. I do not even think places like Denver and Portland need to be in this topic.

By the way, didn't 002 magazine have an article about the apathetic attitude when it comes to developing in this city compared to other cities such as Atlanta. I think CVS was the focus in that article.

[RedScare]

I do not even think places like Denver and Portland need to be in this topic.

Did you intend to show an aerial view of a few blocks of Denver surrounded by surface parking lots, or was that wholly unintended?

[WesternGulf]

Did you intend to show an aerial view of a few blocks of Denver surrounded by surface parking lots, or was that wholly unintended?

If you click on different areas of the aerial it shows what is going on in their core.

[RedScare]

If you click on different areas of the aerial it shows what is going on in their core.

Am I supposed to be depressed at Denver's 8-10 partial blocks of infill versus Houston's 45 blocks since the year 2000? Is that why Denver should not be included in this topic, because downtown Houston is redeveloping at a much faster pace?

[Houston19514]

Phoenix may be the exception, but contrary to popular belief, Atlanta and Dallas does have greater control of how the core of their city is developed. I am not saying every development that has taken place has the pedestrian in mind, but what would places like the West End, Deep Ellum, Knox Henderson, Greenville Avenue, and many other places in central Dallas look like if they were located in Houston? Would plans such as the West Village or the many projects for Uptown even come to fruition if the land wasn't regulated. Intown ATL has identity. Some of those century old retail districts are still pretty lively among some of its older neighborhoods and developers respect that. I do not even think places like Denver and Portland need to be in this topic.

By the way, didn't 002 magazine have an article about the apathetic attitude when it comes to developing in this city compared to other cities such as Atlanta. I think CVS was the focus in that article.

You are typing in very broad generalities and have shown no correlation between the different development patterns you've mentioned and zoning. What zoning do Dallas and Atlanta have in those areas that caused them to develop in such a manner? What zoning has allowed those century old retail districts to survive in Atlanta? Zoning only designates what kinds of uses a particular property may be used for. Other regulations (which, again, Houston has, but apparently the wrong kind, at least in some places) determine property setbacks, parking requirements, etc, etc.

[Ethanra]

Do you realize how much NO ZONING influences how a city is built no matter how many neighborhood organizations you have? You will get a huge bite me from developers.

No zoning is always the easy excuse for an area not developing the way one might prefer. Their is restrictions and approvals of what and how developments are built anyways. Be honest with yourself, can you tell a difference between the way Dallas and Houston is growing? Their are huge parking lots DT and shopping centers just outside of DT in both cities.

[KinkaidAlum]

Sorry, if we are talking about the city of Dallas ONLY (not the burbs) then there is a BIG difference in how she is growing compared to Houston.

First and foremost, Dallas has zoning which creates clear boundaries for development. This means that most residential neighborhoods in Dallas are clearly RESIDENTIAL in nature and have nearby "main streets" that contain all of the other uses of development. People in Houston go gaga over the Rice Village, but Dallas is FULL of little Villages that serve diverse neighborhoods.

Secondly, Dallas neighborhoods have differing building code regulations that require such things as setbacks in certain neighborhoods (mainly residential) and differing codes that have to be followed in areas that are zoned for commercial use. This is why the local village centers in the Dallas area are built closer to the sidewalk with parking hidden from view in the rear of most properties.

Now, many people confuse zoning with other building regulations, but the fact of the matter is, a lack of zoning does hurt Houston. It's why we have businesses located on residential streets, self-storage units on primary boulevards, and industrial warehouses and even factories literally in the middle of residential neighborhoods.

No zoning hasn't hurt Midtown per se, but inacting a zoning law couldn't hurt it either. What midtown truly needs is a variance on the current building codes. Right now, someone who wants to build a pedestrian friendly "urban" type development has to bend over backwards to appease the city. The current laws require certain amounts of parking per square foot and setbacks that pretty much require new projects to have surface parking out front. The city has made it VERY easy to allow for suburban developers to build what they want and very difficult for someone with a different vision.

Thus, in the end, it really wouldn't matter much what a local neighborhood group in Midtown came up with unless there was enough pressure to change city codes. There was significant public backlash to the original CVS across the street from Post Properties' Midtown Square but that didn't change anything because CVS was following city guidelines!

[Ethanra]

Sorry, if we are talking about the city of Dallas ONLY (not the burbs) then there is a BIG difference in how she is growing compared to Houston.

First and foremost, Dallas has zoning which creates clear boundaries for development. This means that most residential neighborhoods in Dallas are clearly RESIDENTIAL in nature and have nearby "main streets" that contain all of the other uses of development. People in Houston go gaga over the Rice Village, but Dallas is FULL of little Villages that serve diverse neighborhoods.

Secondly, Dallas neighborhoods have differing building code regulations that require such things as setbacks in certain neighborhoods (mainly residential) and differing codes that have to be followed in areas that are zoned for commercial use. This is why the local village centers in the Dallas area are built closer to the sidewalk with parking hidden from view in the rear of most properties.

I guess my brother lives in a different Dallas then your talking back. I visit monthly and I wish I knew what little villages your talking about. Houston has a liitle more then rice. Their is no difference in what the cities look like. Dallas has gas stations back up to residential neighborhoods as well. Dallas has a self storage unit leading on the main BLVD to my brothers building. The only difference betwwen the two is that Houston has several areas growing which I think it takes away from each neighborhood and Dallas has Midtown.

Edited October 16, 2006 by Ethanra

[KinkaidAlum]

Deep Ellum is one of the areas. Others include Fair Park, Lovers Lane, Mockingbird Station, Winnetka Heights, Cityplace, Lakewood, Oak Lawn, Turtle Creek, Munger Place, Lower Greenville, Victory Park, Cedars, Kessler, Knox Park, Cedar Springs, West End, Swiss Avenue, State-Thomas, M Steets, Hollywood Heights, Preston Hollow, Scyene, Throckmorton, LoMac...

West Village

townhomes in State-Thomas...notice no forward garages and built to sidewalk

SUBWAY

Mockingbird Station

[TheNiche]

Now, many people confuse zoning with other building regulations, but the fact of the matter is, a lack of zoning does hurt Houston. It's why we have businesses located on residential streets, self-storage units on primary boulevards, and industrial warehouses and even factories literally in the middle of residential neighborhoods.

The older parts of many of our nation's larger and youger cities are like this. And zoning doesn't change what was...only what will be. And if you look at development patterns both inside the city and on the periphery, developers these days try to seperate land uses so as to eliminate the externalities of residential/industrial juxtapositions. You certainly aren't seeing new factories being built inside the loop. They're built in big industrial parks, well-seperated from anybody's home. The old Inner Loop factories and warehouses, meanwhile, are generally functionally obsolete, have a high vacancy rate, and are slowly being replaced with the next highest and best uses: housing and retail. So the markets are doing precisely what zoning boards would seek to ensure...and they're doing it efficiently with IMHO fewer errors.

Also, having businesses on residential streets isn't necessarily a bad thing. Some people work from home to keep their overhead low...they'd be put out of business or forced to raise their prices to cover costs if zoning laws were strictly enforced. Poor folks would probably be hurt the worst on that one.

Deep Ellum is one of the areas. Others include Fair Park, Lovers Lane, Mockingbird Station, Winnetka Heights, Cityplace, Lakewood, Oak Lawn, Turtle Creek, Munger Place, Lower Greenville, Victory Park, Cedars, Kessler, Knox Park, Cedar Springs, West End, Swiss Avenue, State-Thomas, M Steets, Hollywood Heights, Preston Hollow, Scyene, Throckmorton, LoMac...

That's all? As much buzz as I hear about these places, many of them seem to be pretty mundane. Especially all those apartments.

[Watch4Snakes]

Whoa! This all seems WAY off topic. Can we please talk about the topic this thread was started for, please?

[musicman]

No zoning hasn't hurt Midtown per se, but inacting a zoning law couldn't hurt it either. What midtown truly needs is a variance on the current building codes. Right now, someone who wants to build a pedestrian friendly "urban" type development has to bend over backwards to appease the city. The current laws require certain amounts of parking per square foot and setbacks that pretty much require new projects to have surface parking out front. The city has made it VERY easy to allow for suburban developers to build what they want and very difficult for someone with a different vision.

Thus, in the end, it really wouldn't matter much what a local neighborhood group in Midtown came up with unless there was enough pressure to change city codes. There was significant public backlash to the original CVS across the street from Post Properties' Midtown Square but that didn't change anything because CVS was following city guidelines!

On the topic of city codes/restrictions, please address this. I"ve read repeated here how the "city code" defines a setback of 25'. Yet there are numerous areas that are not, for instance 4th ward.

does anyone know definitively whether midtown (or portions thereof) are deed restricted? similarly for 4th ward?

[Ethanra]

Deep Ellum is one of the areas. Others include Fair Park, Lovers Lane, Mockingbird Station, Winnetka Heights, Cityplace, Lakewood, Oak Lawn, Turtle Creek, Munger Place, Lower Greenville, Victory Park, Cedars, Kessler, Knox Park, Cedar Springs, West End, Swiss Avenue, State-Thomas, M Steets, Hollywood Heights, Preston Hollow, Scyene, Throckmorton, LoMac...

Those are the villages your talking about, your kidding me right?