IronTiger Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 I predict that what Amazon wants is a campus, not an office building. That would rule out 800 Bell, and put the advantage of what other cities are offering, basically rehabbed greenfield space. Now, can the Astrodome make a great flagship to a campus? Probably. It would certainly be an interesting (if somewhat impractical) re-use of the building but expecting them to share parking with, say, the Rodeo and other NRG events is wishful thinking. Basically, what is Amazon looking for? If that thing about diversity and mass transit is just to keep small cities out of the running and not actually conducive to the actual in-city location, then they'll probably go for the suburbs. Hockley, Katy, The Woodlands...somewhere like that. If they're looking for a place near the city's core and a redevelopment opportunity, then KBR is a decent site. If they're explicitly looking for downtown, then 800 Bell but also adjacent blocks to make more of a campus, similar to their current Seattle HQ. This would also making parking challenging, but its doable. If they're looking for a place in the city but not suburbs, then Astroworld's site is better. It still has light rail access, and it's right next to the highway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToryGattis Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 18 hours ago, 102IAHexpress said: No. But, If you have 105 million of free money the sky is the limit. The astrodome is 42 million cubic feet of indoor space. So, I would just build structures inside the dome: kind of like this Then, surround the indoor astrodome campus with parks, trails, rock walls, or whatever else millennials deem desirable. Outside the dome you have more free space with the astrodome parking lots which could also be given away for free. This is really interesting. Facebook's main HQ building is a massive single-floor open concept building with 430k sq.ft and 2800 employees (and a park on top!). Can somebody do the sq. footage math on concentric circular floorplates rising inside the Astrodome? (so each higher level has a wider hole in the middle allowing light to the lower floors, and no internal roofs are necessary like in the pics above) I'll bet it could easily be the 500+k they need to start, with room for new buildings expansion to the south and east towards the old Astroworld site (which might need to become parking for NRG if the parking next to the Astrodome gets converted into a campus). It could be integrated into a growing TMC expansion to the south to revamp the whole area. Their urban employees could live along the LRT, and their suburban family employees could have a short commute up 90a/Main St. and 288 (or even a southern rail expansion) from very nice yet affordable southern suburbs - best of both worlds. They'd have easy access to the convention center for events and even NRG stadium if they want to have a corporate event with all 50,000 employees at once! It is a real advantage that the only signoffs on the whole plan would be the county, the rodeo, and the Texans. Relatively speaking, that's a pretty small group to get on board. As long as their parking and space needs are met with offsetting space elsewhere (including potentially the old Astroworld site), I don't think it would be a hard sell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUTEX Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 As if there needed to be more evidence that people in Houston have no clue how to do urban development... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston19514 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 I can't recall a post I've ever made about which I feel as confident as this one: The Astrodome will not become Amazon's headquarters. Will. Not. Happen. Rodeo Texans Offshore Technology Conference Future Super Bowls Future NCAA Final Fours and Regional tournaments Future World Cups Texas Bowl Other events at NRG Stadium and NRG Center All the above make the idea of plopping thousands of Amazon employees in the Astrodome unworkable. When you talk about plopping additional buildings on the grounds to house all 50,000 employees it becomes a complete laugh-fest. It will not happen. (Or even be seriously proposed by anyone with the least bit of real knowledge about the Astrodome, NRG Park and their operations.) The Astroworld property could be a possibility and I hope it is included in Houston's proposals. If they want to go for a greenfield site, the Astroworld site would check a lot of boxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston19514 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 20 hours ago, 102IAHexpress said: No. But, If you have 105 million of free money the sky is the limit. The astrodome is 42 million cubic feet of indoor space. So, I would just build structures inside the dome: LOL 105 million doesn't go as far as you seem to think it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
102IAHexpress Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 2 hours ago, Houston19514 said: LOL 105 million doesn't go as far as you seem to think it does. How many millions in free incentives can the private developers of 800 bell and/or the old KBR site offer? lol. That's the main problem, a private developer can't justify to his partners playing the corporate welfare game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUTEX Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 I was under the impression that the $105M is only to add parking under the ground level of the Astrodome...which is great if you're going to park thousands of cars for nearby events, but does nothing to renovate the structure and turn it into something viable for an office building. The proposition to turn it into a convention center, which would have mode the most of the huge (385,000 SF!) floor plates, was for over $217M. You could build three new class-A office buildings with 750,000 SF of combined space for that amount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Alexander Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 The $105 M project is not just for the parking under the ground level, it's mainly to create the ground level. There is no ground level now; in other words there's no street level floor. The old playing field is 25 ft below street level. Building a floor at street level is the first necessary step to make the building usable. It's not intended as the last step. The project also includes adding new visitor entrances at street level; the old public entrances were at 10 ft. above street level, up ramps. It's not accurate to say that the money is doing nothing to renovate the building. There are no plans or serious proposals to make the Dome viable as an office building. A big part of its planned purpose is still to be an exhibition/event hall (not technically a convention center, that term was used inaccurately by news media). The reason the cost this time is half that of the previous proposal is that this one doesn't include money to renovate the upper floors. And also there was some serious decorative fru-fru in that earlier proposal, which has been stripped away. It's a good plan that will get revenue, activity and most importantly people back into the building. Future improvements will be funded and completed separately, a marathon not a sprint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronTiger Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 6 hours ago, Chris Alexander said: I've now read the entire thread and Tory Gattis's linked article. A few thoughts about the Astrodome as HQ2. First, to cut to the chase, it's not going to happen. Rodeo and NFL/Texans would veto in a nanosecond. The only way Amazon would get that building is if they purchase both RODEOHOUSTON and the Houston Texans. Then there's the complicating factor that the property is owned by Harris County, so the city can't actually submit a proposal to Amazon without full county partnership. City and county are getting along well, but I would be stunned to see that happening by October 19, two weeks from now. Absolutely. I keep saying that even if the Astrodome was renovated into an office building (at more than $100M, realistically), parking would be an issue, and thinking Amazon and the sports venues could share parking is absolutely not going to happen. But if there is the "existing buildings" caveat (which I must have missed in reading) that really puts the KBR site up front. I don't think KBR's lack of mass transit is an issue, it's unrealistic if they wanted to be near a rail-based mass transit in most cities, and I contend that the mass transit requirement was just to filter out small MSAs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Alexander Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 Bike, bus and bayou may be an agreeable transit mix for the Amazon culture. Choosing KBR would be visionary and disruptive in the best sense. Anybody have a sense of how visionary and disruptive Amazon is likely to be? Photo: a bike path along the bayou east of downtown at the silo ruins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
102IAHexpress Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 I can't recall a post I've ever made about which I feel as confident as this one: The KBR site will not become Amazon's headquarters. Will. Not. Happen. Don't get me wrong, that site is a great blank canvas. I hope Amazon picks that location, it would be great for that part of town. However I just don't see it happening. The fact that a wealthy private company abandoned it and other private companies have not had interest in the land is telling. Also, what freebies can the Midway developers offer Amazon? Amazon is playing hardball and will want as much freebies as possible. That's why I believe government owned land, whether it's in Houston, Denver, Boston, etc. will be most likely as a future HQ2 site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmac Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 I wouldn't give Amazon a dime to locate here. Tax-dodging Bezos can pay his own way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Alexander Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 6 hours ago, 102IAHexpress said: "...a wealthy private company abandoned it and other private companies have not had interest in the land is telling..." KBR has had its own issues. Not sure its abandonment of the site has anything to do with the site. As far as ther companies lack of interest, well maybe you're right, but then again that entire area is just now on the cusp of turning into something new. I was just looking at the site on Google map. It's an awesome canvas with two existing buildings. There's more property around there that they could acquire. Freeway access is excellent and the Metro 30 runs right by it. And downtown is RIGHT THERE. If I were Bezos I would jump on this like a duck on a junebug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronTiger Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 16 hours ago, Chris Alexander said: KBR has had its own issues. Not sure its abandonment of the site has anything to do with the site. As far as ther companies lack of interest, well maybe you're right, but then again that entire area is just now on the cusp of turning into something new. I was just looking at the site on Google map. It's an awesome canvas with two existing buildings. There's more property around there that they could acquire. Freeway access is excellent and the Metro 30 runs right by it. And downtown is RIGHT THERE. If I were Bezos I would jump on this like a duck on a junebug. From casual observation, KBR's site was oversized. At one time they had a huge industrial operation there with warehouses and railroad spurs coming in from several lines, but divorced from that it was just a few office buildings in a not so great part of town. 22 hours ago, 102IAHexpress said: I can't recall a post I've ever made about which I feel as confident as this one: The KBR site will not become Amazon's headquarters. Will. Not. Happen. Don't get me wrong, that site is a great blank canvas. I hope Amazon picks that location, it would be great for that part of town. However I just don't see it happening. The fact that a wealthy private company abandoned it and other private companies have not had interest in the land is telling. Also, what freebies can the Midway developers offer Amazon? Amazon is playing hardball and will want as much freebies as possible. That's why I believe government owned land, whether it's in Houston, Denver, Boston, etc. will be most likely as a future HQ2 site. I find it laughable that you think that KBR is an impossibility but the Astrodome isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
102IAHexpress Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 4 hours ago, IronTiger said: I find it laughable that you think that KBR is an impossibility but the Astrodome isn't. I find it laughable that not one supporter of the KBR site idea is able to list at least one freebie that the private investors at Midway are willing to offer to Amazon. No one has because Midway is a private company with private investors who have no desire to be on the opposite end of the corporate welfare game. And you can't blame them. Unfortunately, that doesn't fit with Amazon's plan of wanting as much for free as possible. If Midway want's to maximize their profits on this potential deal, as they should, then the kbr site is an impossibility. I'm not saying I love the astrodome idea, I'm just saying Amazon could get the astrodome for practically nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUTEX Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 1 hour ago, 102IAHexpress said: I find it laughable that not one supporter of the KBR site idea is able to list at least one freebie that the private investors at Midway are willing to offer to Amazon. No one has because Midway is a private company with private investors who have no desire to be on the opposite end of the corporate welfare game. And you can't blame them. Unfortunately, that doesn't fit with Amazon's plan of wanting as much for free as possible. If Midway want's to maximize their profits on this potential deal, as they should, then the kbr site is an impossibility. I'm not saying I love the astrodome idea, I'm just saying Amazon could get the astrodome for practically nothing. Enlighten us as to what the other privately owned sites around town will be offering...cause the Astrodome isn't going to make the cut and frankly should be dropped from conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
102IAHexpress Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 Only 15 posts and already going to animated gifs instead of answering a simple question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUTEX Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 That's not an answer. The "simple question," and the argument that private sites can't compete with publicly owned land, is a strawman fallacy. You're asking for info that's almost assuredly behind NDA's and private conversations--no one here has it. And it's the wrong thing to focus on, too. Why? Because, Amazon doesn't need a free site. They buy and rent a tremendous amount of real estate at market value, have a solid credit rating, and can go wherever they please. Incentives will be a factor only when the real driving needs of the selection process have filtered out the non-contending cities: access to workforce, compatible cultures, a place at the table with city elders, etc. (Great article here: https://medium.com/migration-issues/no-room-at-the-inn-for-amazon-effda4edc00f) Amazon will get incentives for any given city from the state, and any given city will have their own incentive package for the variety of sites they submit. Developer incentives aren't going to move the needle very much beyond what the state and city can do because, as correctly pointed out, they're all for-profit and have to make risk adjusted returns for their stakeholders, but also because their relatively minuscule in comparison to the public sphere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToryGattis Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 In bidding for Amazon, Houston leaders see catalyst for growth -- win or lose Crafting proposal gets leaders thinking about city's future http://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/article/In-bidding-for-Amazon-Houston-leaders-see-12261295.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronTiger Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 8 hours ago, 102IAHexpress said: I find it laughable that not one supporter of the KBR site idea is able to list at least one freebie that the private investors at Midway are willing to offer to Amazon. No one has because Midway is a private company with private investors who have no desire to be on the opposite end of the corporate welfare game. And you can't blame them. Unfortunately, that doesn't fit with Amazon's plan of wanting as much for free as possible. If Midway want's to maximize their profits on this potential deal, as they should, then the kbr site is an impossibility. I'm not saying I love the astrodome idea, I'm just saying Amazon could get the astrodome for practically nothing. The Astrodome is a lose/lose situation. Incentives are absolutely not going to be the deciding factor, or some powerful local politician can push around taxpayer money to get Amazon in a city obviously unfit for it. Besides, for the Astrodome to work, $105M or whatever Harris Co. wants to offer won't cover the renovations that need to happen for it to be used as office space. Imagine if you were offered $100,000 if you took a deed to a historic home that was in poor condition, but to really make it liveable and keep the "historic" designation, you calculate it would take $500,000 to renovate it. Conversely, you figure you can build the home that you really want for $250,000. (I know some of these numbers seem off for what homes should be worth, just roll with it). Incentives are worth nothing if you have to put more into it than get out of it. And no, $100k is not going to cover much at the scale you're talking. Half of that is just for construction of parking underneath, and most of the wilder ideas that have come out are far more expensive than $100k. Just to get it up to code is going to going to be incredibly expensive, and we're not even talking about logistical problems like parking. Fact: the KBR site, while problematic, is probably Houston's best chance at attracting Amazon. If the Astrodome is the best chance, then guess where Amazon will be located? Not Houston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Alexander Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 9 hours ago, 102IAHexpress said: Amazon could get the astrodome for practically nothing. No. They can't get the Astrodome at all, because it's not available for such use. County Judge Emmett (Harris County owns the building), has said many times that any outside developer has to pay the full cost of the redevelopment. The judge's stock quote is "show me the money." And the money to physically convert that building on that property pales compared to the money Bezos & Co. would have to put up to essentially buy out the HLSR and Texans 30-year lease contracts, because such a use violates those contracts in ways the current tenants consider unacceptable. Continued discussion of supposed viabilty of the Dome as HQ2 is an indulgent fantasy. it's not going to happen. -- CA for Astrodome Tomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Alexander Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 27 minutes ago, IronTiger said: ...$100k is not going to cover much at the scale you're talking. Half of that is just for construction of parking underneath, and most of the wilder ideas that have come out are far more expensive than $100k. Just to get it up to code is going to going to be incredibly expensive... Fact: the KBR site, while problematic, is probably Houston's best chance at attracting Amazon. If the Astrodome is the best chance, then guess where Amazon will be located? Not Houston. While I strongly agree with your conclusion, I want to clarify that the $105 million (not thousands) includes the two lower levels of parking and a new street level floor with newly configured street level entrances AND getting at least those three levels up to code with visitor comfort amenities. The street level floor is actually more important for the building's future than the parking garage. It should also be noted that $10.5 million of that has already been spent on architectural and engineering design work by Kirksey Architecture, work that is now more than halfway completed. So the actual construction part will be $94.5 million, not $105 million. -- CA for Astrodome Tomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Alexander Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 From today's Chron.com article: "...Houston Chief Development Officer Andy Icken said there's plenty of available land for Amazon's campus between downtown and the Texas Medical Center, an area dense with some of the city's most innovative companies." So where is this available land between downtown and the TMC? Are they proposing to knock down Midtown? Bulldoze Montrose? Flatten Fourth Ward? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston19514 Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 9 hours ago, Chris Alexander said: From today's Chron.com article: "...Houston Chief Development Officer Andy Icken said there's plenty of available land for Amazon's campus between downtown and the Texas Medical Center, an area dense with some of the city's most innovative companies." So where is this available land between downtown and the TMC? Are they proposing to knock down Midtown? Bulldoze Montrose? Flatten Fourth Ward? I saw that quote too. I think he must have been using that phrase (in the way people often do) to mean TMC and downtown combined, not physically between.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmac Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Nice big space in the V between the 59 branches. Knock down Sears and Fiesta and everything else south of Colquitt and west of Eagle. Sell it to Amazon at fair market value, and then tax the crap out of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samagon Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 On 10/4/2017 at 1:10 PM, Mr.Clean19 said: On 10/3/2017 at 11:28 AM, HOUTEX said: Sorry in advance HOUTEX but i cant figure out how to delete this reference box in my chat box and it wont let me type anywhere else. So the the liability argument is out the window with the flooding. This property didnt take on water over the last 5 years. Its probably the least risky property in Houston from flooding. The Warehouses and amount of adjacent open land will be re-developed and is essentially an open floor plan for the developers to buy and create what they want. Chicago can compare at a price, technical resource, or ability to expand like Houston can. hit enter a few times, it will get you out of the 'quote' box and into your own text area, then hit backspace. Someone had to tell me how to do it as well. 15 hours ago, Chris Alexander said: No. They can't get the Astrodome at all, because it's not available for such use. County Judge Emmett (Harris County owns the building), has said many times that any outside developer has to pay the full cost of the redevelopment. The judge's stock quote is "show me the money." And the money to physically convert that building on that property pales compared to the money Bezos & Co. would have to put up to essentially buy out the HLSR and Texans 30-year lease contracts, because such a use violates those contracts in ways the current tenants consider unacceptable. Continued discussion of supposed viabilty of the Dome as HQ2 is an indulgent fantasy. it's not going to happen. -- CA for Astrodome Tomorrow it's probably more to do with that anything that is done to the astrodome has to be voted for by the public. as has been proven, no matter what is the wording on the ballot, the vote is always no... Should we tear down the astrodome? NO!! Should we rebuild the astrodome into ... ? NO!! Should we leave the astrodome as is? NO!! So I feel the vote would result in the same answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUTEX Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 http://swamplot.com/the-fifth-ward-building-with-amazons-wall-street-name-and-jeff-bezoss-fast-action-concept-in-lights/2017-10-09/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgriff Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 What amenities are within walking distance of the KBR site? A Yelp search for restaurants in the area pulls up a big fat 0. I don't see this as a realistic option for Amazon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronTiger Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 On 10/8/2017 at 11:49 PM, Chris Alexander said: While I strongly agree with your conclusion, I want to clarify that the $105 million (not thousands) includes the two lower levels of parking and a new street level floor with newly configured street level entrances AND getting at least those three levels up to code with visitor comfort amenities. The street level floor is actually more important for the building's future than the parking garage. It should also be noted that $10.5 million of that has already been spent on architectural and engineering design work by Kirksey Architecture, work that is now more than halfway completed. So the actual construction part will be $94.5 million, not $105 million. -- CA for Astrodome Tomorrow Yeah, I know I wrote "k" but in my head I still meant million. Everything else is correct though. 9 minutes ago, jgriff said: What amenities are within walking distance of the KBR site? A Yelp search for restaurants in the area pulls up a big fat 0. I don't see this as a realistic option for Amazon. At one time, there was a fast food restaurant at the corner of Hirsch and Clinton, though by the mid-1990s that had gotten absorbed into Brown & Root's property with a new building occupying the premises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston19514 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 1 hour ago, jgriff said: What amenities are within walking distance of the KBR site? A Yelp search for restaurants in the area pulls up a big fat 0. I don't see this as a realistic option for Amazon. Here's the Seattle Times' description of Amazon's Seattle neighborhood, pre-Amazon: "Less a neighborhood than a patchwork of parking lots, warehouses and low-slung industrial buildings. It felt like a ghost town, even at midday." If Amazon chooses that site (or whatever site Amazon chooses), amenities will spring up in no time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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