[The Great Hizzy!]

It also looks like High Street is at least moving in the direction of getting off the ground in the not too distant future.

Of course, as usual, we just shrug our shoulders at the Med Center activity .

It's too bad that the former HISD site in Greenway Plaza is turning out to be so controversial, otherwise you'd really have something to talk about there (especially with the Metropole and the infill near Lakewood Center).

[Pumapayam]

ProHouston, on Thursday, February 15th, 2007 @ 4:26pm, said:

Wow! I think all the developments we've been salivating over are finally kicking off.

Unfortunately, they still can turn out like this, but lets pray that it does not!

Costco Fiasco

The Great Hizzy!, on Thursday, February 15th, 2007 @ 4:35pm, said:

It also looks like High Street is at least moving in the direction of getting off the ground in the not too distant future.

Of course, as usual, we just shrug our shoulders at the Med Center activity .

It's too bad that the former HISD site in Greenway Plaza is turning out to be so controversial, otherwise you'd really have something to talk about there (especially with the Metropole and the infill near Lakewood Center).

Update: Too funny, I just posted the same thing!

[DJ V Lawrence]

ProHouston, on Thursday, February 15th, 2007 @ 4:26pm, said:

So in the course of a few weeks we've begun the Park Tower, Houston Pavilions, and City Centre?!? Not to mention BLVD Place which is around the corner. Wow! I think all the developments we've been salivating over are finally kicking off. I can't count that high but there must be several million square feet of development in these 3 projects alone.

If I'm not mistaken, Memorial City and Astroworld will both have mega-redevelopment projects of their own, too. That and the Downtown Park. Houston's gonna look real nice in 3 years when all five are complete.

[Pumapayam]

DJ V Lawrence, on Thursday, February 15th, 2007 @ 4:43pm, said:

If I'm not mistaken, Memorial City and Astroworld will both have mega-redevelopment projects of their own, too. That and the Downtown Park. Houston's gonna look real nice in 3 years when all five are complete.

Maybe a new light rail line between Memorial City and CityCentre!

[Trae]

That's not a bad idea. A little trolley or something linking up the areas. People could park at Memorial City, and ride to City Centre, or vice versa.

[DJ V Lawrence]

Trae, on Thursday, February 15th, 2007 @ 4:58pm, said:

That's not a bad idea. A little trolley or something linking up the areas. People could park at Memorial City, and ride to City Centre, or vice versa.

How many blocks will be between the two when both projectsare all fnished? Or will they almost be connected?

[The Great Hizzy!]

Quote

How many blocks will be between the two when both projectsare all fnished? Or will they almost be connected?

Not likely "connected", as the TC development (City Centre) and the Memorial City development are about a 1/2 mile (8-10 blocks roughly) apart geographically. Although, I agree that maybe a limited service trolley (subsidized in part or in whole by the two developments or some shared governing body) could be a winner. If you do that, though, I think you need to charge a fare of some kind from day one. METRO's downtown trolley system was successful for the most part but it was free when introduced--entirely subsidized by METRO/the Feds--but then METRO tried to charge a fare to cover some of the escalating costs and that, along with the opening of METRO Rail, killed the service.

I'd charge a basic $0.25/$0.50 fare at the onset so that it doesn't come as a shock to the system and you'd have some form of revenue coming back to you.

This post has been edited by The Great Hizzy!: Thursday, February 15, 2007 at 6:12 PM

[Trae]

And I am also sure people would use it, too. 25 cents (or even 50 cents) wouldn't be too much.

[T 2 THA C]

Its awesome they are devolping Cinty Centre so fast, I thought It would be years before they revitalized T&C, I guess it figures with the Katy FWY expansion and all.

[Jonah]

Since it looks like this is going to be built in phases, how long do they predict until this project is completely finished?

[Pumapayam]

Jonah, on Thursday, February 15th, 2007 @ 8:44pm, said:

Since it looks like this is going to be built in phases, how long do they predict until this project is completely finished?

Hopefully not as long as Sugar Land's town center, it looks like they stopped and they still have two empty lots to fill in.

[houstonfella]

CityCentre

As we were speaking, Nancy Sarnoff has an article in today's Chron. Enjoy. Houston has so much building going on that it is hard to keep up with all the new stuff. Over at the old Allen House is an urban center, CityCentre, Mosaic, 2727 Kirby, the Endeavor highrises ... we haven't even begun to name all the action. houstonfella is happy.

This post has been edited by houstonfella: Friday, February 16, 2007 at 8:41 AM

[C2H]

^^^ Yeah, i wish i could be in Houston right now. It seems HOT!

[musicman]

The Great Hizzy!, on Thursday, February 15th, 2007 @ 5:12pm, said:

METRO's downtown trolley system was successful for the most part but it was free when introduced--entirely subsidized by METRO/the Feds--but then METRO tried to charge a fare to cover some of the escalating costs and that, along with the opening of METRO Rail, killed the service.

Cost isn't what killed the trolleys, METRO did to maximize ridership on the rail. Trolley sure did increase restaurant choices for downtown workers.

[DJ V Lawrence]

C2H, on Friday, February 16th, 2007 @ 9:04am, said:

^^^ Yeah, i wish i could be in Houston right now. It seems HOT!

Wait 'til 2009 when everything's completed, yo

[houstonfella]

The Great Hizzy!, on Thursday, February 15th, 2007 @ 5:12pm, said:

Not likely "connected", as the TC development (City Centre) and the Memorial City development are about a 1/2 mile (8-10 blocks roughly) apart geographically. Although, I agree that maybe a limited service trolley (subsidized in part or in whole by the two developments or some shared governing body) could be a winner. If you do that, though, I think you need to charge a fare of some kind from day one. METRO's downtown trolley system was successful for the most part but it was free when introduced--entirely subsidized by METRO/the Feds--but then METRO tried to charge a fare to cover some of the escalating costs and that, along with the opening of METRO Rail, killed the service.

I'd charge a basic $0.25/$0.50 fare at the onset so that it doesn't come as a shock to the system and you'd have some form of revenue coming back to you.

OK guys. Houston's still the AUTOMOBILE LOVER city. Do the math.

[tamtagon]

Dude, Sweet!

[cwrm4]

T 2 THA C, on Thursday, February 15th, 2007 @ 5:27pm, said:

Its awesome they are devolping Cinty Centre so fast, I thought It would be years before they revitalized T&C, I guess it figures with the Katy FWY expansion and all.

Let's hope TxDOT has planned for the increased traffic in their end design. And let's hope the Katy freeway is finished before they even start construction on "City Centre". Yesterday at lunch it took me 35 minutes to go north on the BW8 feeder, from Memorial to the I-10 eastbound feeder.

[musicman]

cwrm4, on Friday, February 16th, 2007 @ 4:05pm, said:

Let's hope TxDOT has planned for the increased traffic in their end design. And let's hope the Katy freeway is finished before they even start construction on "City Centre". Yesterday at lunch it took me 35 minutes to go north on the BW8 feeder, from Memorial to the I-10 eastbound feeder.

Many here don't believe that widening the katy freeway is a good thing. I do because it is basically the only freeway that has not had a real expansion.

[ProHouston]

musicman, on Friday, February 16th, 2007 @ 4:34pm, said:

Many here don't believe that widening the katy freeway is a good thing. I do because it is basically the only freeway that has not had a real expansion.

Except for 290, the new "Katy Freeway."

[Pumapayam]

cwrm4, on Friday, February 16th, 2007 @ 4:05pm, said:

Let's hope TxDOT has planned for the increased traffic in their end design. And let's hope the Katy freeway is finished before they even start construction on "City Centre". Yesterday at lunch it took me 35 minutes to go north on the BW8 feeder, from Memorial to the I-10 eastbound feeder.

Definately construction traffic, looks like it will only get worse before it gets before.

I wonder if you will have your sanity still in 2009?

[houstonfella]

Pumapayam, on Friday, February 16th, 2007 @ 6:17pm, said:

Definately construction traffic, looks like it will only get worse before it gets before.

I wonder if you will have your sanity still in 2009?

TxDOT is always a decade or two behind in this thing. I am surprised Ms. Gbur still has a job. But, in all fairness, Houston grows and grows and grows and we simply can't keep up with the madness. It is much better than the opposite where cities like Philly dropped from 2 mil to 1 mil in several decades. Guess we'll just get on the freeway for better or for worse.

[ricco67]

musicman, on Friday, February 16th, 2007 @ 4:34pm, said:

Many here don't believe that widening the katy freeway is a good thing. I do because it is basically the only freeway that has not had a real expansion.

If memory serves me correct: The Katy Freeway was upgraded 15 years ago, but the problem was that they didn't do a proper design on it, nor did they take into account on how much growth there would be.

There is no consideration for future travel options such as Rail running down the middle (thanks Delay!) to help increase bodies going through.
When it finally opens, I see it being clogged almost instantly AND the HOV lanes will be crammed within a year or so after opening.

Quite frankly, I see the katy is a failure in design and foresight.

[musicman]

ricco67, on Saturday, February 17th, 2007 @ 7:14am, said:

If memory serves me correct: The Katy Freeway was upgraded 15 years ago, but the problem was that they didn't do a proper design on it, nor did they take into account on how much growth there would be.

There is no consideration for future travel options such as Rail running down the middle (thanks Delay!) to help increase bodies going through.
When it finally opens, I see it being clogged almost instantly AND the HOV lanes will be crammed within a year or so after opening.

Quite frankly, I see the katy is a failure in design and foresight.

the HOV lane was added yes, but the freeway hasn't been widened is what i was referring to. they forced what they could into the same space.
Once the expansion is completed, it will bring long overdue relief to the area.

[ricco67]

I have to disagree with you on this one. They added a lane and an HOV, while it's not much of an expansion, it did bring considerable relief for a couple of years. It was the opening of several 'burbs in that area, it was quickly overwhelmed.


The way the HOV will be will bring a great amount of relief, the only problem will be enforcement to make sure it doesn't get abused, but even with that, I foresee the HOV being clogged yet again in 2 years.

[TheNiche]

ricco67, on Saturday, February 17th, 2007 @ 7:14am, said:

If memory serves me correct: The Katy Freeway was upgraded 15 years ago, but the problem was that they didn't do a proper design on it, nor did they take into account on how much growth there would be.

There is no consideration for future travel options such as Rail running down the middle (thanks Delay!) to help increase bodies going through.
When it finally opens, I see it being clogged almost instantly AND the HOV lanes will be crammed within a year or so after opening.

Quite frankly, I see the katy is a failure in design and foresight.

The only readily apparent design flaw is that TXDoT fails to assess projects in a way that accounts for their impacts to the entire transportation system. As a result, for instance, the West Loop is going to be entirely overwhelmed almost instantly, resulting in a backup that affects traffic flow on the Katy. There may also be problems at the Beltway within a short period of time.

But that doesn't mean that the freeway is unjustified. Even though the average speed that you and I experience during peak hours may not improve between now and then, the volume of traffic served will most definitely increase, and not just because of job and household growth in the corridor, but because people find it easier to use the freeway rather than ground-level streets that cut through neighborhoods and because people are more willing to travel during times of the day that they previously would've avoided. Those impacts aren't very visible to most users of the Katy Freeway, but they will most certainly be sensed by residents and employees of the surrounding neighborhoods...and they are positive impacts.

Oh, and one last thing. If the bidirectional HOV-toll lanes are tolled efficiently, they won't have much congestion. I suspect that they will be, too. After all, what would the incentive be for anyone to take the HOV-toll lanes if there is no time savings?

[Trae]

Could Westpark be changed into a freeway then?

[sttombiz]

after the katy project is finished, will there still be room for a commuter rail? or will it likely have to be raised rail? it boggles me where the row would be found.

[TheNiche]

Trae, on Saturday, February 17th, 2007 @ 4:22pm, said:

Could Westpark be changed into a freeway then?

Is it possible? Sure. TXDoT could buy it from HCTRA. Is it going to happen? I give odds at >100 to 1.

[TheNiche]

sttombiz, on Sunday, February 18th, 2007 @ 12:03am, said:

after the katy project is finished, will there still be room for a commuter rail? or will it likely have to be raised rail? it boggles me where the row would be found.

I never really figured that the Katy Freeway would make all that great of a rapid transit corridor in the first place. There are only really a few reasonable stops (N. Post Oak TC, Memorial City, Town & Country, Dairy Ashford, Eldridge, Park Row, and a P&R lot out toward Cinco Ranch), but even among those, the freeway is so wide and the concentration of jobs, retail, and households so scattered that even an expensive and supportive set of enclosed air-conditioned people-moving crosswalks eminating from the stops along the freeway couldn't effectively serve the area and generate enough ridership to make it worthwhile...especially when you consider the lanes that would have to be sacrificed to make the rapid transit possible.

A much better solution, in my estimation, is going to be extending LRT from Hillcroft TC towards the Grand Parkway along the remaining Westpark corridor, with plenty of P&R lots, transit centers, and north-south signature bus routes feeding it along the way. Not only does that alignment traverse a more dense area with lower-income residents that are more likely to ride transit, but it would also connect more efficiently to the heart of the rapid transit system as it will exist in the future. Besides, it looks like expanding the number of lanes of toll road in the Westpark corridor in the future wouldn't do a lick of good anyway, as the inner-city freeway system that it connects to is now about maxed-out on capacity.

[sttombiz]

you dont think that theres enough rider capacity from energy corridor to memorial city (the new med center) to galleria?

the line stops of energy, mc, and the 610 transit center. farther west could be park and ride on kingsland.

especially if lines are put down 90, 290, 249. Putting one down 10 would connect the entire west. that is if the other lines are constructed. but of what they say about the new city centre development or even the mc developments I believe that there will be enough capacity.

but yes I see how it would be costly to implement one. where is the row? unless they raise or it or strip the center lane ideas but thats not goin to happen.

[Subdude]

Note merged City Centre project threads.

[Trae]

Katy Freeway Corridor could easily support commuter rail. You have the 610/Marq*E stop, Memorial City/Town & Country stop, Dairy Ashford stop, Highway 6-Eldridge Park & Ride stop, Park Ten Business Center-Barker Cypress stop, then it could end at the Grand Parkway. It wouldn't pull ridership numbers like it would if it was along what the Westpark Tollway is now, but I think it could pull enough, especially if it went on into Downtown (intermodel station maybe?).

[TheNiche]

sttombiz, on Sunday, February 18th, 2007 @ 2:06am, said:

you dont think that theres enough rider capacity from energy corridor to memorial city (the new med center) to galleria?

No, I agree that there's plenty of ridership along the wider I-10 corridor. But...it isn't at all configured in a way that makes for walkable transit. It would require numerous shuttle services to collect riders, and then they either have to walk over the freeway to a guideway running down the middle or there has to be an elevated guideway along one or the other edges of the freeway. It is just a cumbersome and/or expensive alignment to build on and serve.

In contrast, rapid transit along Westpark already has a ROW available, doesn't have much of an opportunity cost associated with turning potential highway lanes into a dedicated transit guideway, and the shuttle services could serve not only much of the I-10 corridor, but also a fair bit of southwest Houston. Bang for the buck.

[texasdago]

Driving by the other day, I noticed that construction is starting to take place at City Centre. Good news! I went to their web page and spotted this from the HBJ:

CityCentre explodes with roster of high-end tenants
Houston Business Journal: February 2007

Bits and pieces of news about the much-ballyhooed CityCentre development in west Houston have been trickling out for nearly two years. But this week, followers of the project hit an information gusher.

Executives with Houston-based Midway Cos., which broke ground on the $500 million CityCentre venture last month, finally revealed details about the mixed-use project’s equity partner, other development partners and the scope of the ambitious undertaking on Feb. 15.


Edited by ssullivan:

HAIF's membership terms prohibit posting full articles due to copyright restrictions. If you wish to read the full article, it is available on the Houston Business Journal website by clicking here.

[ricco67]

A shuttle going to and from citi centre and memorial mall wouldn't be very practical considering some of the congestion on there.

Going TO Memorial City Mall from C-Centre would be a bit challenging, even taking the back roads, going TO C-center FROM M-City would be a nightmare because of how they'd have to go around I-10 and BW8 on the FEEDER. The Neighborhood behind C-Center would practically be picking up torches and pitchforks to keep the shuttles from going through their neighborhoods and justifiably so.

[Parrothead]

I-10 missed their opportunity to try commuter rail when they let Union Pacific rip up the tracks and take 'em home.

I think they could still do it though, it would have to be elevated though, don't you think?

[ricco67]

I think it would have been more effective if commuter rail was put on I-10 itself.

Even with the new configuration, it might be possible to do it still, but with a great amount of difficulty.

[Pumapayam]

ricco67, on Saturday, February 17th, 2007 @ 8:15am, said:

I have to disagree with you on this one. They added a lane and an HOV, while it's not much of an expansion, it did bring considerable relief for a couple of years. It was the opening of several 'burbs in that area, it was quickly overwhelmed.
The way the HOV will be will bring a great amount of relief, the only problem will be enforcement to make sure it doesn't get abused, but even with that, I foresee the HOV being clogged yet again in 2 years.

How did they do that, by eating up the shoulder space?

[ricco67]

What part as you asking about?

The initial expansion a number of years ago took away the emergency left lane and took up a BIT of land, not much, but a bit.

[Gary]

ricco67, on Monday, February 19th, 2007 @ 9:17am, said:

A shuttle going to and from citi centre and memorial mall wouldn't be very practical considering some of the congestion on there.

Going TO Memorial City Mall from C-Centre would be a bit challenging, even taking the back roads, going TO C-center FROM M-City would be a nightmare because of how they'd have to go around I-10 and BW8 on the FEEDER. The Neighborhood behind C-Center would practically be picking up torches and pitchforks to keep the shuttles from going through their neighborhoods and justifiably so.

Not to mention the fact that both area's have traditionally competed with one another for retail dollars. Now they'll be competing in residential as well. Imo, it would take a big sense of community for both sets of leaders to agree to this in the first place.

[ig2ba]

houstonfella, on Saturday, February 17th, 2007 @ 12:07am, said:

TxDOT is always a decade or two behind in this thing. I am surprised Ms. Gbur still has a job. But, in all fairness, Houston grows and grows and grows and we simply can't keep up with the madness. It is much better than the opposite where cities like Philly dropped from 2 mil to 1 mil in several decades. Guess we'll just get on the freeway for better or for worse.

It's not that TxDOT didn't plan for congestion at the West Loop. They planned to expand the West Loop back in 1991 - approaching two decades ago. Unfortunately, political opposition (one example: Sheila Jackson Lee) made this untenable at the time. TxDOT recognized the need for a rebuild but could only reconstruct the West Loop as a no-capacity-added project (in order to avoid a more lengthy and another politically-charged debate and approval process). This is why the West Loop still narrows to 8 lanes for about a mile. Cleverly, though, TxDOT appears to have striped for only 8 lanes, but built enough pavement in many places for more lanes. My guess is that they'll try to restripe for 10 lanes in most spots within a few years if/when the traffic becomes unbearable.

[Trae]

ricco67, on Monday, February 19th, 2007 @ 9:49am, said:

I think it would have been more effective if commuter rail was put on I-10 itself.

Even with the new configuration, it might be possible to do it still, but with a great amount of difficulty.

I think this is why the ramps were built to be strong enough to support a commuter rail train going down the middle of it.

[T 2 THA C]

Trae, on Monday, February 19th, 2007 @ 10:45am, said:

I think this is why the ramps were built to be strong enough to support a commuter rail train going down the middle of it.

What ramps?

[Trae]

For overpasses.

[ProHouston]

Trae, on Monday, February 19th, 2007 @ 10:45am, said:

I think this is why the ramps were built to be strong enough to support a commuter rail train going down the middle of it.

They definitely did not consider (more likely they ignored) the potential for light or commuter rail to be added when they designed the reconstruction of this corridor. It was a huge mistake, one that we'll have to pay for in the decades to come.

[ProHouston]

Pumapayam, on Thursday, February 15th, 2007 @ 11:05pm, said:

Hopefully not as long as Sugar Land's town center, it looks like they stopped and they still have two empty lots to fill in.

The First Colony developers have a history of saving their most precious lots for something grand. Remember that the tract that Sugar Land Town Square is currently on sat empty for 25 years as development surrounded it. Then they decided to build an urban Town Square.

The lot closest to Hwy 6 is reserved for a high rise condo, the tallest building in Fort Bend County. The lot across from Starbucks and the actual "Town Square" is most likely being saved for a big name, significant tenant once the rest of the spots have filled in.

[Gary]

ProHouston, on Monday, February 19th, 2007 @ 2:32pm, said:

They definitely did not consider (more likely they ignored) the potential for light or commuter rail to be added when they designed the reconstruction of this corridor.

uummmm, yes they did.

[Pumapayam]

ProHouston, on Monday, February 19th, 2007 @ 2:46pm, said:

Remember that the tract that Sugar Land Town Square is currently on sat empty for 25 years as development surrounded it.

Let's hope they fill it in before that, I doubt anyone wants to wait another 25 years.

[Parrothead]

The Latest Info On CityCentre

Project in west Houston caters to consumers' desires to eat, shop, live and work all within walking distance
Suburban space meets urban style

By NANCY SARNOFF
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

CityCentre to be suburban space with urban style

At one of Houston's busiest intersections, developers are planning to bring a different sort of urban life to 37 acres of mostly vacant land where Town & Country Mall once stood.

Embracing a trend to build urban-style developments in suburban settings, Midway Cos. announced on Thursday its more than $500 million CityCentre project — a blend of shops, restaurants, a hotel, a movie theater, a fitness center, offices and residences in a walkable environment.

*continued in link above*