Why does everyone keep talking about toll roads like it's a positive thing?

[samagon]

18 hours ago, VinnyVincent said:

Aren't the republicans in Austin the ones who keep making roads "appear" with a toll attached?

 

Lets imagine for a moment that our tax dollars are not being totally misused and that we literally can't afford to build any new highways at all; Why is that problem transferred over to me, the citizen, in the form of a toll?

To me that is not an acceptable solution. It's their job to figure out how to fund road construction. If they can't do that without charging the taxpayers multiple times what it costs to build the road, in a system where they mortgage payment only increases over time, then they have utterly failed at their job and need to be replaced, not rewarded with bribery and the like for pushing the pro toll agenda.

 

Also in their failure I still don't think we should resort to building toll roads. There are better ways but until tolls are off the table no  one in office is going to bother.

You do realize that a 'toll' is a hyper specific tax that targets only the users of that road right?

 

So you want me, a person who never uses any of these new roads to pay for these roads for you? To provide you with a succinct and as polite a response as possible: Screw that.

 

You choose to live in an area where a toll road is your only reasonable method of getting somewhere quickly. why should I help you subsidize that?

 

You spoke in another thread of how to protest toll roads. the simplest way to protest them is to not use them. Toll roads are successful specifically because people use them, they will continue to be successful so long as people continue to use them. 

[VinnyVincent]

7 minutes ago, samagon said:

You do realize that a 'toll' is a hyper specific tax that targets only the users of that road right?

 

So you want me, a person who never uses any of these new roads to pay for these roads for you? To provide you with a succinct and as polite a response as possible: Screw that.

 

You choose to live in an area where a toll road is your only reasonable method of getting somewhere quickly. why should I help you subsidize that?

 

You spoke in another thread of how to protest toll roads. the simplest way to protest them is to not use them. Toll roads are successful specifically because people use them, they will continue to be successful so long as people continue to use them. 

You kind of contradicted yourself there.

 

People continue to use toll roads because toll roads are the only reasonable option for some people.

 

However it is NOT a specific tax. If I get on BW8, I'm paying 1.75 every few miles on a road that was paid for 12 times over.

I'm effectively subsidizing roads that i am not even using, so it is the exact scenario that you said "screw that" to, only it is more expensive and less efficient than a real  tax subsidy.

 

 

I also wouldn't say I "choose" to live anywhere. Most people go to areas where they can find a decent job.

[VinnyVincent]

To expand more on the "you chose to live near a toll road" comment.

 

I moved to Houston almost ten years ago now. Traffic was bad then but it was manageable. It's gotten totally out of hand since then and it seems like virtually nothing has been done to accommodate it, short of constructing toll roads, some in areas that don't even need roads while problem areas are ignored.

In other words I didn't choose to live in an area where toll roads were the only reasonable transportation option. The local government has failed to keep up with expanding the roads in spite of what is likely a massive increase in tax dollars from the increase in population.

 

Instead of spending money on roads they've been wasting it on dumb stuff, so now we are stuck with toll roads as an option. That needs to change.

[VinnyVincent]

Also the latest trend is to convert existing roads into tolled roads or add "managed lanes" which screws up everyone else's commute whether you want to admit it or not.

THEY are the ones moving into my area, not the other way around.

[VinnyVincent]

One more thing samagon;

 

You say troll roads are successful because people use them...I say people only use them because we keep building them and tolling roads that were paid off multiple times over. It's getting to where there are few roads in the houston area that don't have a toll and certainly there aren't many highways left that don't at least have a "managed lane" (government speak for toll road)

 

This is where the protest comes in. It's not to do something unrealistic, like eliminate all existing toll roads.

It's to get these idiots from doing insane crap like selling off the median in every existing road possible, making every single new road tolled, and continuing to toll roads that have been paid for.

All of that needs to go away. I don't think that's asking a lot.

[Ross]

8 hours ago, VinnyVincent said:

BW8 has been paid for 12 times.

I'm not interested in reading a bunch pages of numbers put out by the organization in question who is continuing to charge us to use a road that was paid for 12 times. I'm not going to trust anything coming from that organization.

It's very, very easy to play with numbers on a financial statement to make them look good and if you look at the way you have to pretty much solve a riddle to figure it all out, you can see that this is exactly what their accountants did.

 

 

It's actually pretty hard to play with numbers on financial statements that are audited. Especially with the various laws we now have that make that sort of thing a serious felony. How much experience do you have with reading financials?

[VinnyVincent]

19 minutes ago, Ross said:

It's actually pretty hard to play with numbers on financial statements that are audited. Especially with the various laws we now have that make that sort of thing a serious felony. How much experience do you have with reading financials?

I have a little experience in reading financials. I'm not a financial analyst or anything, but I've looked at quite a few back when I was trying to make some money in the stock market.

 

From what I understand it is VERY easy to manipulate a financial statement that is audited.

 

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/fundamental-analysis/financial-statement-manipulation.asp

 

But do you know what makes it even easier? When you have the amount of money, power and influence that HCTRA has.

[IronTiger]

1 hour ago, VinnyVincent said:

But do you know what makes it even easier? When you have the amount of money, power and influence that HCTRA has.

 

Right, because they're the Tolluminati.

 

8 hours ago, VinnyVincent said:

https://www.hctra.org/Home

 

There's no .gov in that URL.

 

You know you keep strongly associating HCTRA with the government, but the fact is they operate more like a private, for profit company than a government agency.

 

It is part of the Harris County Public Infrastructure Department. Link. Not every governmental agency has a .gov.

8 hours ago, VinnyVincent said:

Also the latest trend is to convert existing roads into tolled roads or add "managed lanes" which screws up everyone else's commute whether you want to admit it or not.

THEY are the ones moving into my area, not the other way around.

 

They're not converting existing roads into tolled roads. What you're thinking about is the non-limited-access highways getting tolled limited access roads, which doesn't apply here. As they say, put up or shut up, because that's completely irrelevant to your rage against HCTRA.

[VinnyVincent]

Quote

Toll road revenue is being used to build new toll roads to collect even more fees from citizens of the State of Texas. Tolling should not be allowed to perpetuate itself by making loans to other tolling agencies to build more Toll Roads. As an example, HCTRA loaned $20 million dollars to another http://www.chron.com/news/transporta...ad-5997311.php that it earned from fees on the Beltway 8 Toll Road in Houston! If the Beltway 8 project is paid for, per the advertisement on the bond sold to the residents of Harris County, the Beltway 8 Toll Road was to become Free once paid for!. Yes, it was supposed to be free once paid for. Harris County has NOT kept its word with the citizens of the City of Houston. This is treasonous and malicious intent to defraud. Beltway 8 is a cash cow for the City who continues to increase taxes. Harris County is making money hand over fist off of tolls yet they continue to raise property taxes...why? Because it is never enough and nobody is stopping them!

https://www.change.org/p/texans-for-toll-free-highways-heavily-reform-toll-roads-by-legislation-or-litigation-sign-the-petition

[samagon]

17 hours ago, VinnyVincent said:

You kind of contradicted yourself there.

 

People continue to use toll roads because toll roads are the only reasonable option for some people.

 

However it is NOT a specific tax. If I get on BW8, I'm paying 1.75 every few miles on a road that was paid for 12 times over.

I'm effectively subsidizing roads that i am not even using, so it is the exact scenario that you said "screw that" to, only it is more expensive and less efficient than a real  tax subsidy.

 

 

I also wouldn't say I "choose" to live anywhere. Most people go to areas where they can find a decent job.

 

Toll roads aren't the only reasonable option. Toll roads are the only reasonable option if you choose to live in a specific location.

 

If you get on BW8, yet moved here 10 years ago, you knew EXACTLY what you were signing up for when you CHOSE to live where you do. 

 

If you want to live in Tomball, but have a job in downtown, or in the energy corridor, is that my fault? Should I have to pay for your CHOICE in where you live in relation to your job?

 

I live downtown. I used to live on the west side of town, Dairy Ashford and Westheimer area. I worked out near Nasa. The quickest way for me to get to/from work was for me to hop on BW8 and drive I paid $9 every day to commute to work. That didn't include gasoline for my 30+ mile (one way) journey. I didn't like doing that, so I moved somewhere that regardless of where I ended up working in the city, I would not have to pay for tolls. This was 8 years ago. I haven't spent more than $10 in tolls since.

 

So yeah, it's your choice. The system of toll roads has been around, we've known exactly how they work and what they are going to do moving forward. You chose to live in that environment, I shouldn't have to bankroll your choice.

 

17 hours ago, VinnyVincent said:

To expand more on the "you chose to live near a toll road" comment.

 

I moved to Houston almost ten years ago now. Traffic was bad then but it was manageable. It's gotten totally out of hand since then and it seems like virtually nothing has been done to accommodate it, short of constructing toll roads, some in areas that don't even need roads while problem areas are ignored.

In other words I didn't choose to live in an area where toll roads were the only reasonable transportation option. The local government has failed to keep up with expanding the roads in spite of what is likely a massive increase in tax dollars from the increase in population.

 

Instead of spending money on roads they've been wasting it on dumb stuff, so now we are stuck with toll roads as an option. That needs to change.

 

10 years ago the toll roads existed.  You knew exactly the environment you chose to move into. The toll roads exist specifically to help people who choose to live out in the boonies travel in to town. I should not have to subsidize people who choose to live in the suburbs. You choose to live in the suburbs and as the toll roads have a very specific purpose of paying for other toll roads that are newly built, you chose to subsidize others who want to live farther out. That's the game you chose to play. Now you don't want to play any longer, so move somewhere that you don't have to pay tolls.

 

17 hours ago, VinnyVincent said:

Also the latest trend is to convert existing roads into tolled roads or add "managed lanes" which screws up everyone else's commute whether you want to admit it or not.

THEY are the ones moving into my area, not the other way around.

 

This is false.

 

The only road that is remotely close to this is 249 in Tomball. The problem is that the freeway portion of the road was built out to a certain point with funding. The funding for the remainder of that road was not secured. The only possible way to fund it was by making it a toll road. So there were two options:

 

1. keep existing scenario with basically a road that has a REALLY huge median that is doing nothing for anyone, no property taxes collected. Nothing.

 

2. sell/lease the rights to the REALLY huge median of this road to a toll road authority to make use of this completely un-utilized land.

 

the really outer outer loop, 99 once they built the test section, they realized they couldn't pay for it, so it got the same treatment. sell/lease to a toll road authority, or don't make the road, but own the ROW. again, unutilized land that everyone has to pay to sit fallow.

 

17 hours ago, VinnyVincent said:

One more thing samagon;

 

You say troll roads are successful because people use them...I say people only use them because we keep building them and tolling roads that were paid off multiple times over. It's getting to where there are few roads in the houston area that don't have a toll and certainly there aren't many highways left that don't at least have a "managed lane" (government speak for toll road)

 

This is where the protest comes in. It's not to do something unrealistic, like eliminate all existing toll roads.

It's to get these idiots from doing insane crap like selling off the median in every existing road possible, making every single new road tolled, and continuing to toll roads that have been paid for.

All of that needs to go away. I don't think that's asking a lot.

 

If toll roads weren't successful then they wouldn't be able to build more.

 

They fund new toll roads through the tolls collected on existing toll roads. This is how it works. 

 

The land they use they pay for with tolls collected from people who choose to use their system.

 

So there's nothing unreasonable about what they are doing. It is unreasonable for you to expect others to subsidize your choice to live so far away from town that the only realistic way to build roads is through tolls collected.

[samagon]

Vinnie, you are so adamant about the ballot measure releasing $900 in bonds to the HCTRA in 1983. please find the ballot and where it said that the toll road would be free once paid for.

 

You might have to go to a library and find some actual microfiche.

[VinnyVincent]

5 minutes ago, samagon said:

Vinnie, you are so adamant about the ballot measure releasing $900 in bonds to the HCTRA in 1983. please find the ballot and where it said that the toll road would be free once paid for.

Please the general public isn't going to read the ballot. The public was misled as to what the ballot meant.

[samagon]

6 minutes ago, VinnyVincent said:

Please the general public isn't going to read the ballot. The public was misled as to what the ballot meant.

 

Then the general public made an uninformed decision you are paying for today. literally.

 

It is still your choice.

[VinnyVincent]

25 minutes ago, samagon said:

It is unreasonable for you to expect others to subsidize your choice to live so far away from town that the only realistic way to build roads is through tolls collected.

Where exactly am I supposed to live? Inside the 610 loop? Who can afford that?

 

[VinnyVincent]

35 minutes ago, samagon said:

 

If toll roads weren't successful then they wouldn't be able to build more.

That's BS. How many years were we continuing to pay tolls on BW8 to subsidize the hardy?

Doesn't sound like a success to me...

 

99 is always empty when I see it.

 

130...lol

 

 

And you know lots of things are successful but not right. White collar crime comes to mind.

[LTAWACS]

So... how can we get rid of the tolls and the related agencies?

[cspwal]

18 minutes ago, VinnyVincent said:

Where exactly am I supposed to live? Inside the 610 loop? Who can afford that?

 

 

Found a house for you - new construction, $155,000, 3 bed 2 bath, inside the loop

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3506-Tuam-St-Houston-TX-77004/27756257_zpid/

 

No tolls needed

[VinnyVincent]

2 minutes ago, cspwal said:

 

Found a house for you - new construction, $155,000, 3 bed 2 bath, inside the loop

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3506-Tuam-St-Houston-TX-77004/27756257_zpid/

 

No tolls needed

LOL you must not be from Houston either.

 

I have a girlfriend, who has a daughter and I'd like to not risk them getting raped when they are walking outside to get the mail.

[cspwal]

Hey I work in that neighborhood and live 10 minutes away

[VinnyVincent]

5 minutes ago, cspwal said:

Hey I work in that neighborhood and live 10 minutes away

I'm sorry(that you have to visit that area daily)

[samagon]

32 minutes ago, cspwal said:

 

Found a house for you - new construction, $155,000, 3 bed 2 bath, inside the loop

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3506-Tuam-St-Houston-TX-77004/27756257_zpid/

 

No tolls needed

 

30 minutes ago, VinnyVincent said:

LOL you must not be from Houston either.

 

I have a girlfriend, who has a daughter and I'd like to not risk them getting raped when they are walking outside to get the mail.

 

You know that's hilarious.

 

When people aren't willing to jump into a neighborhood when it's moving up because it's 'too sketchy' or 'too dangerous'.

 

Then, in 5 years when it's out of their price range, they can't afford to move there and they complain because they can't afford it.

 

good job. enjoy paying your tolls. enjoy the addition of more toll roads in your area that will force you to pay even more tolls than you currently do, and finally, enjoy the increased price of the tolls as they need even more money to expand the toll system to account for people who want the same suburban lifestyle you wanted 10 years ago, but they want it even farther out of town because traffic in your area sucks. Expanding 249 to College Station as a tollroad. College Station is going to be a commuter town for Houston. LOL.

 

here ya go, that's literally the cheapest place in the area:

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/928-Mckinney-Park-Ln-Houston-TX-77003/80554712_zpid/

 

Hell, buy the one that cspawl referenced now, lease it for $1000 a month. You're making extra money over the mortgage/tax/insurance costs. then when the area is nice enough for you to move in, boom. kick out renters and move in.

[VinnyVincent]

56 minutes ago, cspwal said:

 

Found a house for you - new construction, $155,000, 3 bed 2 bath, inside the loop

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3506-Tuam-St-Houston-TX-77004/27756257_zpid/

 

No tolls needed

Here's the view of the houses across the street...

 

That's your options for living toll free in houston, unless you have a million dollars to live in river oaks.

 

 

[VinnyVincent]

13 minutes ago, samagon said:

 

 

You know that's hilarious.

 

When people aren't willing to jump into a neighborhood when it's moving up because it's 'too sketchy' or 'too dangerous'.

 

Then, in 5 years when it's out of their price range, they can't afford to move there and they complain because they can't afford it.

 

good job. enjoy paying your tolls. enjoy the addition of more toll roads in your area that will force you to pay even more tolls than you currently do, and finally, enjoy the increased price of the tolls as they need even more money to expand the toll system to account for people who want the same suburban lifestyle you wanted 10 years ago, but they want it even farther out of town because traffic in your area sucks. Expanding 249 to College Station as a tollroad. College Station is going to be a commuter town for Houston. LOL.

 

 

Dude there's crack houses across the street. No reasonable person is going to move their family into that house.

[VinnyVincent]

BTW what are the property taxes like on those houses? Outrageous I'd imagine.

FYI they are now diverting tax money from the appraisal district into road construction too...so you guys enjoy paying your inflated property taxes that everyone has been noticing the past few years.

They just passed that which is why they have been going up so much.

[cspwal]

The property taxes would be even higher if it was paying for new freeways.

 

just saying

[VinnyVincent]

Just now, cspwal said:

The property taxes would be even higher if it was paying for new freeways.

 

just saying

The point is the gas tax is supposed to be paying for new freeways and that money is being diverted to less important BS...so instead of fixing that they raise property taxes AND tolls have gone up.

 

SO we are being triple taxed and apparently a lot of this is going to simply "maintain" the roads.

Yeah right. If they were dumping that kind of cash into road maintenance, we should be driving on silky smooth roads with a surface less than 10 years old on each of them.

Instead I have to change my shocks out every 75K because they are so worn out...

[samagon]

My property tax is about 2.5%

 

The last appraisal I got from the judge was $170k value?

 

So just over $4000. The majority goes to schools. I'd have to pay attention to the percentages.

 

Here's a fun article for you take a gander at:

http://www.lbb.state.tx.us/Documents/Publications/Primer/Highway Funding Primer 312012.pdf

[Triton]

48 minutes ago, VinnyVincent said:

The point is the gas tax is supposed to be paying for new freeways and that money is being diverted to less important BS...so instead of fixing that they raise property taxes AND tolls have gone up.

 

SO we are being triple taxed and apparently a lot of this is going to simply "maintain" the roads.

Yeah right. If they were dumping that kind of cash into road maintenance, we should be driving on silky smooth roads with a surface less than 10 years old on each of them.

Instead I have to change my shocks out every 75K because they are so worn out...

 

What "BS" is it going to instead?

[VinnyVincent]

 

13 minutes ago, Triton said:

 

What "BS" is it going to instead?

Doesn't matter. What matter is that it's supposed to be going to roads and it's not.

So instead they have increased our property taxes to help supplement the gas tax they are abusing.

Tolls have gone up as well...

 

Still all new roads are toll roads. Ridiculous.

[VinnyVincent]

1 hour ago, samagon said:

My property tax is about 2.5%

 

The last appraisal I got from the judge was $170k value?

 

So just over $4000. The majority goes to schools. I'd have to pay attention to the percentages.

 

Here's a fun article for you take a gander at:

http://www.lbb.state.tx.us/Documents/Publications/Primer/Highway Funding Primer 312012.pdf

That's old. I wonder how much we're getting ripped off on our property tax that is now being used for roads...

 

EDIT: Also you already know that whole thing is somewhat false. They have a chart showing you how the gas tax is spent. They have 75% of the funds going to roads and 25% going to schools on that chart. We already know that's false. You said yourself the money was being spent on other things didn't you?