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Why does everyone keep talking about toll roads like it's a positive thing?


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21 hours ago, VinnyVincent said:

I'd be happy with that bit of progress. At least shut down the one thats been paid for 12 times over.

Without doing that, they're using toll money simply to fund more toll roads. It's like a tax with the added weight of a private company to support.

Roads (or any transportation network) aren't just "build once and ignore forever" no matter how you slice it, because once you take a road off of funding, it will fall apart. Imagine the Houston freeways having the sort of potholes some of the late 1970s/1980s roads have gotten prior to rebuilding. Richmond, Broadway, maybe Gessner north of I-10, all that. And of course, maintenance for emergency situations. They repaired Beltway 8 south of I-10 following damage from Harvey. Imagine if they didn't repair it or just scrounged up enough cash to plug the most problematic areas with asphalt. Or expansion, like how Beltway 8 and 288 is getting a shiny five-stack, or at least the first phases of it.

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42 minutes ago, IronTiger said:

Roads (or any transportation network) aren't just "build once and ignore forever" no matter how you slice it, because once you take a road off of funding, it will fall apart. Imagine the Houston freeways having the sort of potholes some of the late 1970s/1980s roads have gotten prior to rebuilding. Richmond, Broadway, maybe Gessner north of I-10, all that. And of course, maintenance for emergency situations. They repaired Beltway 8 south of I-10 following damage from Harvey. Imagine if they didn't repair it or just scrounged up enough cash to plug the most problematic areas with asphalt. Or expansion, like how Beltway 8 and 288 is getting a shiny five-stack, or at least the first phases of it.

I understand that, but it's well known that the Hardy toll road loses money and is SUBSIDIZED(there's that nasty word people hate when talk of increasing taxes comes) by funds from BW8.

If toll roads are so successful, as you claim, why not charge 30 cents at the booth on BW8 to cover filling of pot holes and here's an idea- how about a VOTE on whether or not we need additional funds to build roads in some areas?

Why I am I stuck paying for someones bad business decision when I ride BW8 but not the Hardy?

 

They fixed the road after hurricane harvey? LOL that's what they're SUPPOSED to do! of course they fixed it. They were losing more money per day in tolls than the repairs cost them no doubt. Gotta keep that money pouring into he county commissioners pockets, right? I bet if the roads were public roads and they got damaged, we could have gotten federal assistance for repairs...

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42 minutes ago, VinnyVincent said:

I understand that, but it's well known that the Hardy toll road loses money and is SUBSIDIZED(there's that nasty word people hate when talk of increasing taxes comes) by funds from BW8.

If toll roads are so successful, as you claim, why not charge 30 cents at the booth on BW8 to cover filling of pot holes and here's an idea- how about a VOTE on whether or not we need additional funds to build roads in some areas?

Why I am I stuck paying for someones bad business decision when I ride BW8 but not the Hardy?

 

They fixed the road after hurricane harvey? LOL that's what they're SUPPOSED to do! of course they fixed it. They were losing more money per day in tolls than the repairs cost them no doubt. Gotta keep that money pouring into he county commissioners pockets, right? I bet if the roads were public roads and they got damaged, we could have gotten federal assistance for repairs...

They ARE public roads. None of the Houston area toll roads are owned by private entities. They are all owned and operated by government agencies.

 

What's your evidence that the Hardy is subsidized by the other segments? Claiming that "it's well known" is not evidence.

 

On the 2016 financials, it shows that HCTRA transferred $124 million to the County for non-toll thoroughfare construction.

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2 hours ago, VinnyVincent said:

I understand that, but it's well known that the Hardy toll road loses money and is SUBSIDIZED(there's that nasty word people hate when talk of increasing taxes comes) by funds from BW8.

If toll roads are so successful, as you claim, why not charge 30 cents at the booth on BW8 to cover filling of pot holes and here's an idea- how about a VOTE on whether or not we need additional funds to build roads in some areas?

Why I am I stuck paying for someones bad business decision when I ride BW8 but not the Hardy?

 

They fixed the road after hurricane harvey? LOL that's what they're SUPPOSED to do! of course they fixed it. They were losing more money per day in tolls than the repairs cost them no doubt. Gotta keep that money pouring into he county commissioners pockets, right? I bet if the roads were public roads and they got damaged, we could have gotten federal assistance for repairs...

The Houston Chronicle reported in 1998 that the Hardy Toll Road was still not paying for itself and indicated with their numbers that there needed to be about a 50% increase in toll-paying drivers for it to break even. However, by 2002, the Hardy Toll Road traffic had increased by 50% and has been rising since. (source: Houston Freeways by @MaxConcrete)

 

So yes...you are correct if you were using data from two decades ago. As for your other claim, HCTRA is still a government agency and is eligible for disaster recompensation.

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On 10/11/2017 at 5:43 PM, VinnyVincent said:

But isn't the argument for toll roads "You aren't going to increase my taxes to pay for roads I don't use!"? Well, by paying to ride on a road that's been paid off already, you are paying for other roads that you probably don't use. Most people who use BW8 on a regular basis aren't using the hardy on a regular basis.

It's the exact same thing as a tax, but the cost is higher because they are #1 for profit and #2 their executives are overly paid. There's also a lot of what essentially amounts to bribery/back scratching going on.(I'm thinking county commissioners here)

 

What's more, they secure funding from investors to build new roads. Why do they need BW8? Foreign Investors are beating down the door to buy more of our public land, so they can charge us to use it...shouldn't be too hard to get all the money that way. The only reason I see to keep BW8 tolls open is greed.

 

249 used to be a decent free highway. Now the poor people who have always lives there are reduced to some cheesy little feeder road that got squeezed in as a technicality. That toll road made traffic in that area worse, not better, because no one uses it.

 

 

 

 

Taxes aren't increased to pay for roads you don't use. Tolls are collected on tollroads to help pay for new tollroads. You also have a choice to not take the tollroad. My taxes have not once gone up to pay for tollroads.

 

Now, to the point where you are lying...

 

I've been on 249, both before and after the tollroad was added. they absolutely did not add tolls to an already existing freeway as you suggest. Where the freeway ended is still where the freeway portion of the road ends, they added tolled lanes beyond where the freeway had always ended.

 

Simply put, 249 freeway always ended between Spring Cypress and Northpoint Blvd. The last free exit is currently after Spring Cypress, for Northpoint Blvd.

 

So you are lying when you say the people are now 'reduced' to some cheesy feeder. After Spring Cypress all that was available was a feeder road.

 

Traffic in the area is worse because there are more people living all over the place up there. Traffic in the area will continue to get worse because they are building more and more homes. 

 

Confirmation of your lie about what 249 was/is, and confirmation of new neighborhoods can both be seen on historic aerials.

 

You don't like tollways, that's fine, but you don't need to lie to try and bolster your argument that they are pure concentrated evil.

 

It may come as a surprise, but I don't like tollways either. I haven't been on a tollway in over 10 years since I moved away from beltway 8. I don't like them, but I do recognize and appreciate their value as a method of quickly increasing car mobility in a given area without raising taxes.

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To be fair, they've added a lot of stoplights to the 249 feeder that weren't there before in order to accommodate those fancy overpasses. The medians that used to let you cut across were taken over for the toll lanes and you now have to drive farther to get around the other side.

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29 minutes ago, brian0123 said:

To be fair, they've added a lot of stoplights to the 249 feeder that weren't there before in order to accommodate those fancy overpasses. The medians that used to let you cut across were taken over for the toll lanes and you now have to drive farther to get around the other side.

There were a few crossing areas that were taken out because they weren't really meant to have overpasses to begin with (generally, the ones that were supposed to have full interchanges had turnaround lanes and were perpendicular to the frontage roads, whereas the ones that were temporarily weren't). As an example, the crossing between Canyon Gate Pointe Drive and 3 Lakes Blvd. was temporary. As to why the stoplights are still there, I don't know. Just eyeballing it on Google Earth, the only new stoplights added were two for Grand Parkway, which is standard for intersecting freeways in Houston. Looks like they have the right of way cut out for the eventual five-stack ramps.

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  • 2 months later...
On ‎10‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 7:52 PM, brian0123 said:

To be fair, they've added a lot of stoplights to the 249 feeder that weren't there before in order to accommodate those fancy overpasses. The medians that used to let you cut across were taken over for the toll lanes and you now have to drive farther to get around the other side.

 

They also do this to annoy the hell out of non-toll-road users in order to frustrate them to the point where they DO purchase an EZ tag. Eff them.

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  • 1 month later...
On 10/18/2017 at 1:30 PM, samagon said:

 

Taxes aren't increased to pay for roads you don't use. Tolls are collected on tollroads to help pay for new tollroads. You also have a choice to not take the tollroad. My taxes have not once gone up to pay for tollroads.

 

Now, to the point where you are lying...

 

I've been on 249, both before and after the tollroad was added. they absolutely did not add tolls to an already existing freeway as you suggest. Where the freeway ended is still where the freeway portion of the road ends, they added tolled lanes beyond where the freeway had always ended.

 

Simply put, 249 freeway always ended between Spring Cypress and Northpoint Blvd. The last free exit is currently after Spring Cypress, for Northpoint Blvd.

 

So you are lying when you say the people are now 'reduced' to some cheesy feeder. After Spring Cypress all that was available was a feeder road.

 

Traffic in the area is worse because there are more people living all over the place up there. Traffic in the area will continue to get worse because they are building more and more homes. 

 

Confirmation of your lie about what 249 was/is, and confirmation of new neighborhoods can both be seen on historic aerials.

 

You don't like tollways, that's fine, but you don't need to lie to try and bolster your argument that they are pure concentrated evil.

 

It may come as a surprise, but I don't like tollways either. I haven't been on a tollway in over 10 years since I moved away from beltway 8. I don't like them, but I do recognize and appreciate their value as a method of quickly increasing car mobility in a given area without raising taxes.

 

Sounds like the fella has more of a socio-econo-political axe to grind than any logical or practical solution to traffic.

The only solution is autonomous vehicles. Traffic is caused by drivers with the lowest threshold of skill.

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