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Why does everyone keep talking about toll roads like it's a positive thing?


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14 minutes ago, IronTiger said:

 

I did not derail the thread, you did, and I can find out where that did happen. In any case, let me get this straight.

 

- You ride your motorcycle for free on METRO's 290 HOV lane during the HOV times. Check. Got it. You do not ride it on the off-hours because it closed on the off-hours.

- You ride your motorcycle for free on HCTRA's Katy Managed Lanes during the HOV times. Check. Got it. You want to ride it on the off-hours but it has a toll, making it "invalid" somehow.

 

Along these lines, you've dragged a variety of issues into this, like how "HCTRA doesn't care about motorcyclists" or something along those lines. Based on everything you've said about the KML and the Beltway, I think the conclusion is because you ride a motorcycle, that you're entitled to ride free wherever, whenever.

Lol. Way off.

Nice try though. Keep on trolling.

 

Let me spell this out for you once again:

 

290's managed lane is free for motorcycles and multi passenger riders during HOT hours.

I-10's managed lane is NOT free for motorcycles or multi passenger cars during HOT hours.

Period. If you still aren't getting it then I'm not sure how I can help you.

 

This point was only brought up in the first place to illustrate how HCTRA cares more about money than providing a public service.

 

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3 hours ago, VinnyVincent said:

Lol. Way off.

Nice try though. Keep on trolling.

 

Let me spell this out for you once again:

 

290's managed lane is free for motorcycles and multi passenger riders during HOT hours.

I-10's managed lane is NOT free for motorcycles or multi passenger cars during HOT hours.

Period. If you still aren't getting it then I'm not sure how I can help you.

 

This point was only brought up in the first place to illustrate how HCTRA cares more about money than providing a public service.

 

 

By the "HOT hours", I assume rush hour ( Monday through Friday, 5 am – 11 am and 2 pm – 8 pm, eastbound and westbound), correct? According to HCTRA, it is free, so if you're not flat-out lying, you probably screwed up the times on the KML once and got billed some amount instead of going for free, hence this bitterness against HCTRA and repeating stuff that isn't actually true.

 

Also his name is Houston19514. Didn't your mother tell you to not mock others' names?

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Posted 19 hours ago · 

   19 hours ago,  Houston19514 said: 

 

 They get to ride free on both systems during HOT hours.  Period.  

No. No they don't. Stop lying.

 

 

Quote

 

You actually revised what I wrote and then used the fake quote to accuse me of lying?  The depths of your dishonesty are truly astonishing.

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I believe he is saying HOT hours for the Katy Tollway are whenever it doesn't have the HOV lane ability.

 

It's confusing because that's not how the system works - the center reversible lanes that are run by Metro are called HOV/HOT lanes.  They have HOV only hours, and then they have hours that allow single person vehicles to share the lane with the HOV vehicles.

 

The Katy tollway is a tollway, not an HOV lane.  At peak travel hours, HOV vehicles (carpools, motorcycles, etc) can travel for free, but at all other times tolls apply to everyone.

 

 

To get back on to the subject of toll roads in general, there's 2 arguments that can be used for tolling a road:

 - To pay for the road or other roads in the same system.  An example of this would be the super busy BW 8 on the westside subsidizing the Hardy tollroad

 - To reduce congestion by increasing the price.  This takes a more market based approach - when there is a fixed supply (road capacity) and demand goes up (people wanting to drive) then the price goes up (the tolls).  That use of the tolls seems to be mainly on the HOT lanes - it can cost $7 sometimes to take the southwest freeway HOT lane during rush hour

 

 

Arguments toll roads?  I have at least one

 - Tolls reduce access for lower income people, and are considered a regressive tax by some

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Surely as much money as our corrupt officials have at their disposal.... there IS  a way to build additional roads without them being tolled. 

 

 

If effin Katy ISD can raise $$ to build 3 new huge high school football stadiums.... then surely we can build more roads. UGH

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7 minutes ago, LTAWACS said:

Surely as much money as our corrupt officials have at their disposal.... there IS  a way to build additional roads without them being tolled. 

 

 

If effin Katy ISD can raise $$ to build 3 new huge high school football stadiums.... then surely we can build more roads. UGH

Highways are expensive, it costs about $4 million per mile to widen a 4 lane highway to a 6 lane highway (on average), and besides, different funding means different rules.

 

Besides, can you imagine anyone seriously trying to suggest money be redirected out of Katy ISD and toward the highway fund? People are going to go berserk!

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2 hours ago, IronTiger said:

Highways are expensive, it costs about $4 million per mile to widen a 4 lane highway to a 6 lane highway (on average), and besides, different funding means different rules.

 

Besides, can you imagine anyone seriously trying to suggest money be redirected out of Katy ISD and toward the highway fund? People are going to go berserk!

 

No. I mean if some small time ISD can raise the money to build huge stadiums.... why cant harris county/texas/houston raise money to build a highway????

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Because a lot of money goes to other things.

 

According to Texas Transparency, in 2016 Texas spent $16 billion on "Public Assistance payments", $14 billion on "Intergovernmental payments", $6 billion on government employees (salaries and benefits), and $2 billion on highway construction.  Only $0.4 million was spend on repairs and maintenance, though that could be for buildings not roads. https://www.comptroller.texas.gov/transparency/spending/visualizations.php

 

If you change the view to agencies, Health and Human services tops out at $40 billion, while TxDot is only $10 billion

 

So that's where the state's money is going.  And $10 billion is a lot of money, but that is spread out over the whole state and is not just new construction but also maintence of roads.

 

http://www.harriscountytx.gov/CmpDocuments/66/CAFR_Reports/Harris County CAFR FY15.pdf

According to the Harris County report for fiscal year 2014 (first one from Google):

They got $3 billion in revenue, and spent $2.8 billion.  Roads & bridges were $350 million, and "Toll Road" was $591 million.

It is unclear whether that is the amount they spent to maintain the toll roads, or that is indicating HCTRA is operating at a loss and that is how much Harris county is subsidizing it with taxpayer money.

 

There's a lot more in the report, including some pretty graphs.  One last thing that might indicate toll road profit/loss would be on page 22 there's a graph of program revenues & expenditures.  Roads and bridges had revenue of $159 million and expenses of $350 million.

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1 hour ago, LTAWACS said:

 

No. I mean if some small time ISD can raise the money to build huge stadiums.... why cant harris county/texas/houston raise money to build a highway????

 

First of all, Katy ISD is one of the 10 largest school districts in the state. But even if that weren't true, where in the world are you getting the idea that they are building 3 new football stadiums?? That's certainly not true. They're building a second one next to Rhodes Stadium that has been there since 1979.

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On 1/14/2017 at 10:53 AM, cspwal said:

I believe he is saying HOT hours for the Katy Tollway are whenever it doesn't have the HOV lane ability.

 

It's confusing because that's not how the system works - the center reversible lanes that are run by Metro are called HOV/HOT lanes.  They have HOV only hours, and then they have hours that allow single person vehicles to share the lane with the HOV vehicles.

 

The Katy tollway is a tollway, not an HOV lane.  At peak travel hours, HOV vehicles (carpools, motorcycles, etc) can travel for free, but at all other times tolls apply to everyone.

 

 

To get back on to the subject of toll roads in general, there's 2 arguments that can be used for tolling a road:

 - To pay for the road or other roads in the same system.  An example of this would be the super busy BW 8 on the westside subsidizing the Hardy tollroad

 - To reduce congestion by increasing the price.  This takes a more market based approach - when there is a fixed supply (road capacity) and demand goes up (people wanting to drive) then the price goes up (the tolls).  That use of the tolls seems to be mainly on the HOT lanes - it can cost $7 sometimes to take the southwest freeway HOT lane during rush hour

 

 

Arguments toll roads?  I have at least one

 - Tolls reduce access for lower income people, and are considered a regressive tax by some

Yes, that was exactly what I was trying to say regarding the HOV/HOT lanes. Thanks for clearing that up; I understand it can be confusing for some who don't live here and are trying to decipher the website put up by the tolling organizations who do everything they can in order to word things in a way to dodge any scrutiny.

 

 

I disagree with your "reducing congestion by increasing the price" theory.

That's part of the problem with toll roads to begin with. They aren't very efficient at reducing congestion because only a fraction of the drivers are going to use the toll road. This is especially true of "managed lanes"(government speak for toll roads)

 

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Anyways to everyone reading this; We are all in the same boat here.

I feel any of us who live in the greater Houston area are getting screwed by our elected officials in charge of transportation and the private entities they have aligned themselves with.

Whether it's by paying hundreds/thousands a year in tolls, or sitting in terrible traffic while brand new super highways are built in areas that are less congested...we are all getting screwed.

 

I think deep down everyone reading this knows it's true and that's what's most important. We can argue all day about WHY it's true, but I think we all recognize that it is true.

 

I think what's most important is that we all recognize that toll roads are not the most efficient way to reduce congestion. With that being true, why are we(our elected officials) continuing to push them so aggressively?

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3 hours ago, VinnyVincent said:

Anyways to everyone reading this; We are all in the same boat here.

I feel any of us who live in the greater Houston area are getting screwed by our elected officials in charge of transportation and the private entities they have aligned themselves with.

Whether it's by paying hundreds/thousands a year in tolls, or sitting in terrible traffic while brand new super highways are built in areas that are less congested...we are all getting screwed.

 

I think deep down everyone reading this knows it's true and that's what's most important. We can argue all day about WHY it's true, but I think we all recognize that it is true.

 

I think what's most important is that we all recognize that toll roads are not the most efficient way to reduce congestion. With that being true, why are we(our elected officials) continuing to push them so aggressively?

I do not feel screwed by government on this topic. I understand that building and maintaining roads costs money, and that taxes are not currently adequate to cover the costs to build many of the roads we need. That's as opposed to the Republicans in Austin who think roads magically appear from the wand of the Road Fairy.

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39 minutes ago, Ross said:

I do not feel screwed by government on this topic. I understand that building and maintaining roads costs money, and that taxes are not currently adequate to cover the costs to build many of the roads we need. That's as opposed to the Republicans in Austin who think roads magically appear from the wand of the Road Fairy.

Aren't the republicans in Austin the ones who keep making roads "appear" with a toll attached?

 

Lets imagine for a moment that our tax dollars are not being totally misused and that we literally can't afford to build any new highways at all; Why is that problem transferred over to me, the citizen, in the form of a toll?

To me that is not an acceptable solution. It's their job to figure out how to fund road construction. If they can't do that without charging the taxpayers multiple times what it costs to build the road, in a system where they mortgage payment only increases over time, then they have utterly failed at their job and need to be replaced, not rewarded with bribery and the like for pushing the pro toll agenda.

 

Also in their failure I still don't think we should resort to building toll roads. There are better ways but until tolls are off the table no  one in office is going to bother.

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Why mess with taxes that annoy the folks who contribute to your campaigns when you can build toll roads and brag about how you've "held the line" and reduced taxes. Face it, Vinny, the Legislature doesn't give a crap what you or I think, just what their contributors think.

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3 hours ago, VinnyVincent said:

Aren't the republicans in Austin the ones who keep making roads "appear" with a toll attached?

 

Lets imagine for a moment that our tax dollars are not being totally misused and that we literally can't afford to build any new highways at all; Why is that problem transferred over to me, the citizen, in the form of a toll?

To me that is not an acceptable solution. It's their job to figure out how to fund road construction. If they can't do that without charging the taxpayers multiple times what it costs to build the road, in a system where they mortgage payment only increases over time, then they have utterly failed at their job and need to be replaced, not rewarded with bribery and the like for pushing the pro toll agenda.

 

Also in their failure I still don't think we should resort to building toll roads. There are better ways but until tolls are off the table no  one in office is going to bother.

I'm curious as to what your solution is to building free roadways without the obvious solution of raising taxes. Redirecting money out of oversized ISD budgets could almost (probably) work, but public resistance is going to be really hard against that.

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6 hours ago, IronTiger said:

I'm curious as to what your solution is to building free roadways without the obvious solution of raising taxes. Redirecting money out of oversized ISD budgets could almost (probably) work, but public resistance is going to be really hard against that.

As someone who has looked hard at school budgets, especially HISD, I can tell you that there is very little money to be cut there, and nowhere near enough to fund roads.

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29 minutes ago, LTAWACS said:

The bottom line is that we do not want toll roads. Get rid of the tolls. Leave the roads. Period.

At least if the road is paid off.

 

I did an experiment and got on BW8 to go to work today since it was flooding elsewhere.

Cost me 5 dollars one way from 290 to 288. So ten dollars a day to commute on that road which easily would total out to well over 2,500 dollars over the course of the year and that's being conservative.

 

This is on a road that's been paid off for years. If there's any toll at all it should be reduced to something like .40 cents or so to maintain the road and that's it.

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8 hours ago, IronTiger said:

I'm curious as to what your solution is to building free roadways without the obvious solution of raising taxes. Redirecting money out of oversized ISD budgets could almost (probably) work, but public resistance is going to be really hard against that.

 

Well I think the first step would be taking the toll road option off the table. After that yeah traffic might get pretty bad for a while, that is until people start putting the pressure on to quit wasting our tax money...

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On 1/16/2017 at 1:58 PM, cspwal said:

 

 

http://www.harriscountytx.gov/CmpDocuments/66/CAFR_Reports/Harris County CAFR FY15.pdf

According to the Harris County report for fiscal year 2014 (first one from Google):

They got $3 billion in revenue, and spent $2.8 billion.  Roads & bridges were $350 million, and "Toll Road" was $591 million.

It is unclear whether that is the amount they spent to maintain the toll roads, or that is indicating HCTRA is operating at a loss and that is how much Harris county is subsidizing it with taxpayer money.

 

There's a lot more in the report, including some pretty graphs.  One last thing that might indicate toll road profit/loss would be on page 22 there's a graph of program revenues & expenditures.  Roads and bridges had revenue of $159 million and expenses of $350 million.

 

The best place to see HCTRA's revenues and "profits" is in their own audited financial statements.  HCTRA's revenues and expenses are also included in the county's financial statements, because HCTRA is part of the county government.  The $591 million  spent on toll roads is the amount of expenses incurred by the HCTRA.  Note higher up in the same financial statement, it shows approximately $703 million of charges for services.  The vast majority of this is tolls. (Elsewhere in the linked report (page 175) it shows toll road revenues comprised approximately $689 million of the $703 million.)

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59 minutes ago, Houston19514 said:

 

The best place to see HCTRA's revenues and "profits" is in their own audited financial statements.  HCTRA's revenues and expenses are also included in the county's financial statements, because HCTRA is part of the county government.  The $591 million  spent on toll roads is the amount of expenses incurred by the HCTRA.  Note higher up in the same financial statement, it shows approximately $703 million of charges for services.  The vast majority of this is tolls. (Elsewhere in the linked report (page 175) it shows toll road revenues comprised approximately $689 million of the $703 million.)

BW8 has been paid for 12 times.

I'm not interested in reading a bunch pages of numbers put out by the organization in question who is continuing to charge us to use a road that was paid for 12 times. I'm not going to trust anything coming from that organization.

It's very, very easy to play with numbers on a financial statement to make them look good and if you look at the way you have to pretty much solve a riddle to figure it all out, you can see that this is exactly what their accountants did.

 

 

Sure maybe it's part of the government, but you have non-elected officials making a very good living off of that road and they have vested interest in charging you as much as possible.

The system is flawed and the first thing that needs to happen is HCTRA needs to go.

 

 

Here's a list of what should happen taken from the change website:

 

Quote

1.  There should be one tolling agency statewide.

2.  Legal Loopholes must be closed to prevent abuse by the "private" for-profit part of Toll road operations. Their nature is in conflict with your right to drive. A set of laws that CLEARLY define, limit and control Toll Roads must be established.

3.  The power to fine, sue and charge excessive fees must be severely limited and prevent economic harm against Texans created by the Legal Loopholes that are used against us.

4.  The creation of protections (A Bill of RIghts) for Citizens against Toll road atrocities.

5.  A Clear and concise operating charter for Toll Roads with a moral duty clause that makes it illegal to work and establish any Toll Project or operating guidelines that would bring economic harm against a Texas Citizen created by the system itself.

6.  The exposure of profits, peoples names and other information by Regional Mobility Authorities.

7.  The the abolition of any and all future toll roads.

8.  Stop diverting Gas Tax money to other programs.

9.  The classification of a "toll" as a "Tax" by admission of the State. 

10.  The immediate development of a Gas Tax plan to pay for roads and "Sunset" (eliminate" toll roads within 5 years.

 

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2 minutes ago, VinnyVincent said:

BW8 has been paid for 12 times.

I'm not interested in reading a bunch pages of numbers put out by the organization in question who is continuing to charge us to use a road that was paid for 12 times. I'm not going to trust anything coming from that organization.

It's very, very easy to play with numbers on a financial statement to make them look good and if you look at the way you have to pretty much solve a riddle to figure it all out, you can see that this is exactly what their accountants did.

 

 

I didn't post that information for you.  You've made it abundantly clear you have no interest in facts.

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On 1/4/2017 at 1:47 PM, IronTiger said:

 Not that I expect any of this to change your mind, of course--your disregard of it and accusations of me being part of the Tolluminati somehow gives me the impression of you'll refuse to believe no matter what. ("A .gov page? Remember, they claimed that we actually landed on the Moon in 1969. No way I'd believe ANYTHING from them.")

 

 

43 minutes ago, VinnyVincent said:

Going to the HCTRA website to get the "facts" is akin to asking the Russians if they have been spying on us. What do you think the answer is going to be?

 

You know, that previous response about not believing anything from official government sources was supposed to be a joke, but now I'm not so sure.

 

Also Change.org petitions are almost always implausible (at worst) or wishful thinking (at best). If those things actually worked, then I think there would be heated arguments over which season of Firefly was the best.

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4 minutes ago, IronTiger said:

 

 

You know, that previous response about not believing anything from official government sources was supposed to be a joke, but now I'm not so sure.

 

Also Change.org petitions are almost always implausible (at worst) or wishful thinking (at best). If those things actually worked, then I think there would be heated arguments over which season of Firefly was the best.

https://www.hctra.org/Home

 

There's no .gov in that URL.

 

You know you keep strongly associating HCTRA with the government, but the fact is they operate more like a private, for profit company than a government agency.

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