Texas Central Project

[august948]

17 hours ago, Avossos said:

I am for both projects, but also for different reasons:

 

HSR - Reducing the need for car travel between Houston and Dallas / plus greater economic connectivity / shortened travel time.

 

i45 - Removing more above ground freeway / park caps / improved infrastructure / a better looking core

 

Each have positives and negatives. However both are a slam dunk IMO. 

 

Is HSR really oriented towards eliminating car trips? From what I read, they are going to try to be competitive with air on ticket prices and transit time.  Unless the ticket prices are going to be way lower than airline tickets, most people opting for the train would have been considering flying, not driving.

[Big E]

20 hours ago, august948 said:

 

Is HSR really oriented towards eliminating car trips? From what I read, they are going to try to be competitive with air on ticket prices and transit time.  Unless the ticket prices are going to be way lower than airline tickets, most people opting for the train would have been considering flying, not driving.

 

For people who drive between Houston and Dallas regularly, we're talking daily or weekly, it very well might be better for them overall than loading up a car, driving the long miles, on their gas, to do whatever is they got to do, then driving back.

[august948]

5 hours ago, Big E said:

 

For people who drive between Houston and Dallas regularly, we're talking daily or weekly, it very well might be better for them overall than loading up a car, driving the long miles, on their gas, to do whatever is they got to do, then driving back.

 

Wouldn't most of those folks already be flying, then?

[Big E]

10 hours ago, august948 said:

 

Wouldn't most of those folks already be flying, then?

 

Depends on if they'd rather pay for the plane ticket or just drive the distance. Either way, the train would be good third option, and probably cheaper than both in the long run.

[Texasota]

You know, like the Acela/NE Corridor. It pulls from people who would other drive, people who would otherwise fly, and people who wouldn't make the trip at all.

 

I have no idea how mane people are likely to regularly travel between Houston and Dallas, but bringing the trip time under two hours AND having it be far more comfortable than flying definitely makes it seem a lot more accessible.

[jgriff]

How many flights from Houston to Dallas and back can you buy for $30 billion? 

[gmac]

5 hours ago, jgriff said:

How many flights from Houston to Dallas and back can you buy for $30 billion? 

 

Only a couple hundred million if you book early.

[august948]

9 hours ago, Big E said:

 

Depends on if they'd rather pay for the plane ticket or just drive the distance. Either way, the train would be good third option, and probably cheaper than both in the long run.

 

Good third option, yes.  Cheaper than both, no.

 

The google maps distance between downtown Dallas and downtown Houston shows 241 miles.  My f150 averages about 13 mpg which comes out to about 19 gallons one way.  We'll round that up to 20 and multiply by $1.60 per gallon (close enough, I think I paid $1.55 the other day at sam's club) and we get $32.  That's $64 round trip in direct cost (not including the inevitably expensive Buc-ee's stops).  Just to quell the "but, but oil, tires and maintenance!" arguments we'll round that up to $100 round trip.  Is that even close to round trip airfare and whatever round trip hsr tickets will cost?  Probably not.

 

This is a good third option, and hopefully the start of a bigger and more useful network, but I wouldn't count on this significantly impacting road traffic between here and Dallas.  The people shelling out for this would probably have shelled out for a plane ticket unless the hsr tickets are going to come in closer to what you have to pay in gas to drive it.

[Specwriter]

8 hours ago, august948 said:

 

Good third option, yes.  Cheaper than both, no.

 

The google maps distance between downtown Dallas and downtown Houston shows 241 miles.  My f150 averages about 13 mpg which comes out to about 19 gallons one way.  We'll round that up to 20 and multiply by $1.60 per gallon (close enough, I think I paid $1.55 the other day at sam's club) and we get $32.  That's $64 round trip in direct cost (not including the inevitably expensive Buc-ee's stops).  Just to quell the "but, but oil, tires and maintenance!" arguments we'll round that up to $100 round trip.  Is that even close to round trip airfare and whatever round trip hsr tickets will cost?  Probably not.

 

 

When I travel from the company office in Houston to the one in Dallas I am allowed 250 miles each way for reimbursement purposes. If the current rate the IRS allows is $0.55/mile that comes to $275.00 for a round trip by personal automobile (fuel, wear and tear, insurance, etc.). That compares very favorably to round trip air fare + transportation to and from Love Field to the Dallas office + parking at Hobby. An added advantage is I can stop at any one of several Dairy Queens along the way for a DQ treat. ☺️ If I took HSR I would still need transportation to the rail station from the home office and to the other office or hotel.

[JLWM8609]

On 12/3/2020 at 8:34 AM, mfastx said:

 

I mean, everyone was apparently fine with building highways to no end that take up way more property/homes than a rail line ever would (and continue to take up more even after they are built!), so I see it as a bit hypocritical to be staunchly opposed to a rail line for these reasons. 

To be fair, there were a lot of rural landowners who were opposed to the failed, quarter mile wide Trans Texas Corridor that included two separate highways within its ROW (one for cars and one for trucks).

Edited December 7, 2020 by JLWM8609
grammar

[Montrose1100]

On 12/6/2020 at 1:19 AM, august948 said:

 

Good third option, yes.  Cheaper than both, no.

 

The google maps distance between downtown Dallas and downtown Houston shows 241 miles.  My f150 averages about 13 mpg which comes out to about 19 gallons one way.  We'll round that up to 20 and multiply by $1.60 per gallon (close enough, I think I paid $1.55 the other day at sam's club) and we get $32.  That's $64 round trip in direct cost (not including the inevitably expensive Buc-ee's stops).  Just to quell the "but, but oil, tires and maintenance!" arguments we'll round that up to $100 round trip.  Is that even close to round trip airfare and whatever round trip hsr tickets will cost?  Probably not.

 

This is a good third option, and hopefully the start of a bigger and more useful network, but I wouldn't count on this significantly impacting road traffic between here and Dallas.  The people shelling out for this would probably have shelled out for a plane ticket unless the hsr tickets are going to come in closer to what you have to pay in gas to drive it.

As Spec said it's a little higher per trip than that. As a bonus, if you need to use the bathroom, the train doesn't have to stop for you. Same for food. Also wouldn't taste as bad as airplane food. 

 

Not much Business in Dallas, but it would be great to take for weekend trips to see friends and go to events. Flying sucks pre-COVID and this would save so much time. I enjoy driving and road trips but not the stress of bad drivers or accidents. Or speeding tickets.

 

When I visit Dallas I usually stay Downtown, and uber or DART where I can. All of the Hotels Downtown charge for parking over night so there's a plus as well.

[gmac]

They would only need about 40,000 passengers @$200 each day for 10 years to break even on a $30B initial investment. Unless my math sucks.

[cspwal]

12 hours ago, JLWM8609 said:

To be fair, there were a lot of rural landowners who were opposed to the failed, quarter mile wide Trans Texas Corridor that included two separate highways within its ROW (one for cars and one for trucks).

I think a lot of the current opposition is from that original design, where it would be taking a lot more land

[mollusk]

On 12/5/2020 at 5:24 AM, august948 said:

 

Wouldn't most of those folks already be flying, then?

 

Not necessarily.  I used to fly to Dallas very regularly when you could just go to Hobby, buy a ticket from a kiosk, pass through a metal detector with your shoes, jacket, and belt on, and get on a less than full airplane with a half hour wait at the very most.  Now you must make a reservation, security is a bunch of kabuki, etc., etc. - all of which eats up much of the time advantage of flying - plus it's all but certain that the plane will be packed to the gills even though the seats are closer together because there's no longer a flight every half hour.  So I take a lot fewer trips, and drive the ones I do take.

 

I also used to fly to Austin about half the time, but now that their airport is almost in Bastrop it's almost always a better use of time to drive.

[HoustonBoy]

1 hour ago, gmac said:

They would only need about 40,000 passengers @$200 each day for 10 years to break even on a $30B initial investment. Unless my math sucks.

Which seems...impossible. 

[samagon]

On 12/3/2020 at 9:29 AM, gmac said:

 

Bingo! Both are huge boondoggles that should be shelved immediately.

 

the i45 expansion sure is a boondoggle, and made worse that the budget comes straight from my taxes.

 

the HSR might be a boondoggle as well, but I have no idea whose boons they are doggling for this project, but it's not mine, so I don't really care whether it's a boondoggle or not.

[gmac]

1 hour ago, samagon said:

 

the i45 expansion sure is a boondoggle, and made worse that the budget comes straight from my taxes.

 

the HSR might be a boondoggle as well, but I have no idea whose boons they are doggling for this project, but it's not mine, so I don't really care whether it's a boondoggle or not.

 

Which ones? Gas taxes?

[Triton]

Whatever happened to the America that could build big. I feel like today's America wouldn't have built the Hoover Dam or the Golden Gate Bridge 

[HoustonBoy]

12 minutes ago, Triton said:

Whatever happened to the America that could build big. I feel like today's America wouldn't have built the Hoover Dam or the Golden Gate Bridge 

Politics above the common good. I have hope that new and grand infrastructure is within our great country's near future. 

[wilcal]

1 hour ago, gmac said:

 

Which ones? Gas taxes?

 

TXDOT's budget is now only about 1/4 use taxes (gas/registration/etc). The rest comes from federal taxes and other TX-based taxes. 

 

 

[gmac]

1 hour ago, Triton said:

Whatever happened to the America that could build big. I feel like today's America wouldn't have built the Hoover Dam or the Golden Gate Bridge 

 

Sure they would. Those were necessary projects.

[gmac]

1 hour ago, wilcal said:

 

TXDOT's budget is now only about 1/4 use taxes (gas/registration/etc). The rest comes from federal taxes and other TX-based taxes. 

 

 

 

This is a helpful explanation:

 

https://ftp.txdot.gov/pub/txdot-info/sla/education_series/funding.pdf

[samagon]

20 hours ago, gmac said:

 

Which ones? Gas taxes?

 

those too.

 

gas taxes do not cover all of it.

 

from federal funding the federal gas tax covers more than 3/4, but not all, that's covered by big rigs, and heavy trucks:

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/what-highway-trust-fund-and-how-it-financed#:~:text=Most spending from the Highway,by state and local governments.

Quote

The Congressional Budget Office estimates that Highway Trust Fund tax revenue will total $43 billion in fiscal year 2020 (figure 1). Revenue from the federal excise tax on gasoline ($25.8 billion) and diesel fuel ($10.5 billion) accounts for 84 percent of the total. The remaining trust fund tax revenue comes from a sales tax on tractors and heavy trucks, an excise tax on tires for heavy vehicles, and an annual use tax on those vehicles. 

 

from state funding we have big shortfalls there and most of these have been overcome by pulling from the rainy day fund, and sales taxes.

https://comptroller.texas.gov/economy/fiscal-notes/2016/may/road-finance.php#:~:text=New Revenue for Roads&text=The state's Economic Stabilization Fund,excess of fiscal 1987 revenues.&text=Under Proposition 1%2C %241.7 billion,fiscal 2015 for transportation projects.

 

not exactly sure what your point was, but the taxes the oil companies pay for 'production' end up being paid for by me at the pump, I pay sales tax same as everyone else, and I pay both state and federal gas taxes.

 

at the end of the day, and as it relates to my post:

the public highways are paid for by you and I.

this railway is a private venture funded not by state or federal money, it may be a boondoggle, but it's not my money, so I don't care how they waste their money.

[gmac]

6 hours ago, samagon said:

 

those too.

 

gas taxes do not cover all of it.

 

from federal funding the federal gas tax covers more than 3/4, but not all, that's covered by big rigs, and heavy trucks:

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/what-highway-trust-fund-and-how-it-financed#:~:text=Most spending from the Highway,by state and local governments.

 

from state funding we have big shortfalls there and most of these have been overcome by pulling from the rainy day fund, and sales taxes.

https://comptroller.texas.gov/economy/fiscal-notes/2016/may/road-finance.php#:~:text=New Revenue for Roads&text=The state's Economic Stabilization Fund,excess of fiscal 1987 revenues.&text=Under Proposition 1%2C %241.7 billion,fiscal 2015 for transportation projects.

 

not exactly sure what your point was, but the taxes the oil companies pay for 'production' end up being paid for by me at the pump, I pay sales tax same as everyone else, and I pay both state and federal gas taxes.

 

at the end of the day, and as it relates to my post:

the public highways are paid for by you and I.

this railway is a private venture funded not by state or federal money, it may be a boondoggle, but it's not my money, so I don't care how they waste their money.

 

My question was one of curiosity about how you pay directly for the roads.

 

As far as the rail project, if they will commit in writing under penalty of public hara kiri to never accept a penny of tax money and never use eminent domain to secure land, I would be fine with it.

[BeerNut]

2 hours ago, gmac said:

As far as the rail project, if they will commit in writing under penalty of public hara kiri to never accept a penny of tax money and never use eminent domain to secure land, I would be fine with it.

 

Yeah you can forget about them not having to use eminent domain to secure land.  There are people on the proposed route that have already made it clear they will not sell for any price.   But you already knew that...

 

On 12/8/2020 at 5:49 PM, gmac said:

 

Sure they would. Those were necessary projects.

 

I seriously doubt the Hoover Dam would get built today due to environmental impacts and/or eminent domain concerns.  

[Some one]

On 12/8/2020 at 4:35 PM, Triton said:

Whatever happened to the America that could build big. I feel like today's America wouldn't have built the Hoover Dam or the Golden Gate Bridge 

Let's be honest, today's America wouldn't have built the interstate system.

[Ross]

12 hours ago, BeerNut said:

 

Yeah you can forget about them not having to use eminent domain to secure land.  There are people on the proposed route that have already made it clear they will not sell for any price.   But you already knew that...

 

 

Absent eminent domain, the last holdout is going to say "sure, I'll sell you an easement across my land. $400 million for the first 10 years, renewable after that for $500 million for another 10 years, then $1 billion for the next renewal. Take it or leave it."

[Triton]

10 hours ago, Some one said:

Let's be honest, today's America wouldn't have built the interstate system.

Feels like we wouldn't even have NASA or subway systems if they didn't already exist. Feels like anything that is a major project is now a boondoggle and I don't feel like NIMBYism existed 100 years ago as it does today.

[samagon]

34 minutes ago, Triton said:

Feels like we wouldn't even have NASA or subway systems if they didn't already exist. Feels like anything that is a major project is now a boondoggle and I don't feel like NIMBYism existed 100 years ago as it does today.

the Internet (specifically social media) can amplify the needs (wants) of the smallest group of people.

 

these special interests gain traction because groups of people want to feel better about themselves for giving the guy without a voice their support. and so on it goes till it sounds like these special interests are the majority.

 

 

[gmac]

44 minutes ago, Triton said:

Feels like we wouldn't even have NASA or subway systems if they didn't already exist. Feels like anything that is a major project is now a boondoggle and I don't feel like NIMBYism existed 100 years ago as it does today.

 

Disagree. I have no problem with necessary projects like early NASA and other infrastructure that served a large segment of society. You're comparing those with a vanity high-speed rail connection between two cities that are already pretty effectively connected.