livincinco Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 So McCarthy's methods were acceptable?McCarthy would have been proud of that response. So would Karl Rove. Don't try to engage in substantive conversation. Smear and distort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Vik Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 McCarthy would have been proud of that response. So would Karl Rove. Don't try to engage in substantive conversation. Smear and distort.Please answer the question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livincinco Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 Please answer the questionRe-read my post. I do not condone McCarthy's methods at all, but history has proven that there was truth in the fears of Communist spies. Maybe now would be a good time to return to the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Vik Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 Re-read my post. I do not condone McCarthy's methods at all, but history has proven that there was truth in the fears of Communist spies. Maybe now would be a good time to return to the topic.So it's okay for Obama administration to spy on its own citizens in addition to those of other countries and their politicians as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livincinco Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 So it's okay for Obama administration to spy on its own citizens in addition to those of other countries and their politicians as well?And this is relates to the topic...how? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Vik Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 And this is relates to the topic...how?Will history prove something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arche_757 Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 Will history prove something? History always proves something... whether or not that "thing" is what you or others hope it will prove is the real question. What we are all doing right now is projecting what a potential history might be - if - what we think is happening now (the self destruction of the GOP). We may be witnessing an eventual "flip" yet again of both parties and what they represent (as did happen in regards to the civil rights/slavery questions of centuries past). Though I think it is safe to assume splinter parties will come out of both the GOP and the Democrats representing a more far-left and far-right. It is interesting though (to me at least) that we are watching the GOP falter as they basically "bet the farm" on the Tea-Party side to sway national favor back to them in the aftermath of the Iraq/Afghanistan conflicts and the Bush presidency. It has failed badly for them if I am viewing our current afairs right. Just how bad is yet to be seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livincinco Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 History always proves something... whether or not that "thing" is what you or others hope it will prove is the real question.What we are all doing right now is projecting what a potential history might be - if - what we think is happening now (the self destruction of the GOP).We may be witnessing an eventual "flip" yet again of both parties and what they represent (as did happen in regards to the civil rights/slavery questions of centuries past). Though I think it is safe to assume splinter parties will come out of both the GOP and the Democrats representing a more far-left and far-right.It is interesting though (to me at least) that we are watching the GOP falter as they basically "bet the farm" on the Tea-Party side to sway national favor back to them in the aftermath of the Iraq/Afghanistan conflicts and the Bush presidency. It has failed badly for them if I am viewing our current afairs right. Just how bad is yet to be seen.Agreed. Whether the Democrats can effectively exploit their current advantage is very much an open question. They've stumbled horribly right out of the gate by failing to execute the rollout of Obamacare. Nothing undermines "big government" more than poor execution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoustonMidtown Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 Agreed. Whether the Democrats can effectively exploit their current advantage is very much an open question. They've stumbled horribly right out of the gate by failing to execute the rollout of Obamacare. Nothing undermines "big government" more than poor execution.What is/was wrong with the website? I wasn't paying any attention to it because I have insurance through work....but with all the hoopla the last week, I decided to log on and take a look -- I didn't have any problems....have they already fixed it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livincinco Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 What is/was wrong with the website? I wasn't paying any attention to it because I have insurance through work....but with all the hoopla the last week, I decided to log on and take a look -- I didn't have any problems....have they already fixed it ?Just google "healthcare.gov issues" and you'll find a ton of articles on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Vik Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 Just google "healthcare.gov issues" and you'll find a ton of articles on it.True but the demand is still high. There are millions that want insurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livincinco Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 True but the demand is still high. There are millions that want insurance.Yeah, you really missed the point. The execution was poor, that's completely unrelated to what the demand is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Vik Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Yeah, you really missed the point. The execution was poor, that's completely unrelated to what the demand is.I didn't miss the point. Please attempt to debate in a respectable manner and not be condescending. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KinkaidAlum Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 My beef with healthcare reform is that it didn't go far enough. We need a single payer option. The website problems that the Right is up in arms about are laughable. Really? You do everything in your power to kill the bill, vote to squash it 40+ times, shut down the government about it, and then complain that it didn't work as well as it should have when it was finally delivered? Well, frankly, that's on YOU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Vik Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 My beef with healthcare reform is that it didn't go far enough. We need a single payer option. The website problems that the Right is up in arms about are laughable. Really? You do everything in your power to kill the bill, vote to squash it 40+ times, shut down the government about it, and then complain that it didn't work as well as it should have when it was finally delivered? Well, frankly, that's on YOU.Great point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livincinco Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 My beef with healthcare reform is that it didn't go far enough. We need a single payer option. The website problems that the Right is up in arms about are laughable. Really? You do everything in your power to kill the bill, vote to squash it 40+ times, shut down the government about it, and then complain that it didn't work as well as it should have when it was finally delivered? Well, frankly, that's on YOU.This is a question of execution, not policy. The President of the United States spends six years identifying his signature achievement for his presidency, botches the rollout of that achievement and you're blaming that on the opposition. Of course they were against it. He should have been able to execute anyway.I'm not saying that the initiative should be killed, I'm just saying that the Democrats missed a golden opportunity to differentiate themselves by showing that they could provide effective government.The vast majority of the US population feels like government is ineffective and the launch of Obamacare provided an opportunity to prove otherwise and it was missed. BTW, trying to blame this on the Republicans is just a sign of how ineffective things have become. Remember the famous Harry Truman line, "the buck stops here", when you're President, it's your responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick Vik Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 This is a question of execution, not policy. The President of the United States spends six years identifying his signature achievement for his presidency, botches the rollout of that achievement and you're blaming that on the opposition. Of course they were against it. He should have been able to execute anyway.I'm not saying that the initiative should be killed, I'm just saying that the Democrats missed a golden opportunity to differentiate themselves by showing that they could provide effective government.The vast majority of the US population feels like government is ineffective and the launch of Obamacare provided an opportunity to prove otherwise and it was missed. BTW, trying to blame this on the Republicans is just a sign of how ineffective things have become. Remember the famous Harry Truman line, "the buck stops here", when you're President, it's your responsibility.Obama did not code the site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian0123 Posted October 28, 2013 Author Share Posted October 28, 2013 As a software and web developer who works on huge financial sites for one of the largest corps in the world, I think I have a little knowledge on the subject. From what I've seen about the healthcare website launch, it appears to be a private contractor who got in over their heads, and now they are trying to save their company by blaming their poor work on the big bad government. From playing around with the site and what I've read, my guess is the contractor spent a ton of time making a pretty front-end, and put their background data-hub on the backburner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livincinco Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 As a software and web developer who works on huge financial sites for one of the largest corps in the world, I think I have a little knowledge on the subject. From what I've seen about the healthcare website launch, it appears to be a private contractor who got in over their heads, and now they are trying to save their company by blaming their poor work on the big bad government. From playing around with the site and what I've read, my guess is the contractor spent a ton of time making a pretty front-end, and put their background data-hub on the backburner.That's certainly a big part of it, but it also sounds like there were scope changes late in the project, inadequate testing, and ultimately someone signed off on taking this live when they shouldn't have. Describe it however you want. Its a missed opportunity to show government executing effectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arche_757 Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 I think the point is the Republican Party is self destructing... that has nothing to do with the Affordable Health Care Act (aka Obamacare) and everything to do with the fact Obama is in office. I feel like the formerly completely Democrat controlled congress would have been able to push through any number of social policies and the current guise of the GOP would have fought just as hard as they are now. The GOP reached out to their fringe elements and is now looking like they will regret it. As with any group the majority is usually silent, and as such voices of reason are drowned out by the screams of discontent from the fringes (or almost from outside the group). This whole thing boils down to control, and has nothing to do with what is best for the country. I feel like there are very few senators and congress members who are active who value country over their own self-serving needs to remain in office at just about any cost. Therein lies the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livincinco Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 I agree with your comments. My point in bringing up the Obamacare site is that the Democrats are letting the Republicans get off of the ropes with these issues. They had the Republicans completely on the defensive and now they don't. They've let them back in the game and that's a huge mistake. Right or wrong, the Republicans argued that this was going to be a mess and you can blame whoever you want, but they now have a somewhat credible argument that it is and that's a huge tactical loss for the Democrats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arche_757 Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Ah, yes, I see your point. But - I will say that I don't think the GOP were saying that the "Obamacare" would be a mess because of the website, but because it would a) bankrupt the country, force government into the private healthcare world, c) allow poor people access to healthcare they otherwise woulnd't recieve off of our money, d) move the needle towards more government run programs that have largely been kept out of the governmental realm... et cetera I think the website glitch is just an example of a private company taking on more than they could handle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livincinco Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Ah, yes, I see your point. But - I will say that I don't think the GOP were saying that the "Obamacare" would be a mess because of the website, but because it would a) bankrupt the country, force government into the private healthcare world, c) allow poor people access to healthcare they otherwise woulnd't recieve off of our money, d) move the needle towards more government run programs that have largely been kept out of the governmental realm... et cetera I think the website glitch is just an example of a private company taking on more than they could handle. You're absolutely right about the reasons, but I don't think that those will really matter at the end of the day. It's given them a talking point, it's diverted attention from the shutdown, and they're going to play it for all it's worth. I partially agree with you about the website, but there's government obligation here as well. If they let the contractor run off and build this on their own without any oversight (which is what it sounds like happened), then they got what they deserved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livincinco Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Per my earlier point, the news cycle has turned and the shutdown is no longer a story. I wouldn't be surprised if there are no significant changes in the mid-term and if the Republicans retain control of both houses. http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/30/21252826-obama-leadership-style-raises-question-of-who-is-in-control?lite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoustonMidtown Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Per my earlier point, the news cycle has turned and the shutdown is no longer a story. I wouldn't be surprised if there are no significant changes in the mid-term and if the Republicans retain control of both houses.http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/30/21252826-obama-leadership-style-raises-question-of-who-is-in-control?lite Except that they will probably go through the whole shutdown thing again in Jan/Feb....it depends on what they do (or don't do) then....and 3 months after that....and 3 months after that.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livincinco Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Except that they will probably go through the whole shutdown thing again in Jan/Feb....it depends on what they do (or don't do) then....and 3 months after that....and 3 months after that.... I have no doubt of the ability of either party to shoot themselves in the foot multiple times between now and the next election... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoustonMidtown Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 I have no doubt of the ability of either party to shoot themselves in the foot multiple times between now and the next election... LOL -- right....pretty much a given isn't it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arche_757 Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 ^at least we can count on them to do something^ I'm curious - was any one here directly affected by the shutdown? Do any of you work for the government or do business with it? My siblings are in the military and while they were not harmed by the shutdown they did say that most of the large civilian DOD employee population was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoustonMidtown Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 ^at least we can count on them to do something^ I'm curious - was any one here directly affected by the shutdown? Do any of you work for the government or do business with it? My siblings are in the military and while they were not harmed by the shutdown they did say that most of the large civilian DOD employee population was. I wouldn't have known anything was going on (or not going on ?) if I didn't see it on TV or the internet....I don't have any business with government entities and wasn't traveling or vacationing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
august948 Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 I have no doubt of the ability of either party to shoot themselves in the foot multiple times between now and the next election... And that's the real reason why gun control measures are so hard to pass...both parties really can't control their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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