UtterlyUrban Posted May 28, 2017 Share Posted May 28, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, Sunstar said: I personally think the retail will come downtown, but like the residential boom it's going to take incentives to retailers to make it economically feasible. Downtown is too under served in this regard for there not to be an uptick at some point, especially as new residential units come online. I do hope that you are correct. however, in 1 square mile in downtown, we already have 100,000 "high wage office workers" who commute in daily. We also have, what?, 20,000-50,00 "affluent" consumers within a few mile radius. But, nothing except retail crickets........... While I hope that you are correct -- i REALLY hope you are -- personally I now believe that downtown will be an "entertainment" destination, not supported by dry goods retail for many, many more years. Gosh, I hope that i am wrong but I just don't see that it is going to happen. Edited May 28, 2017 by UtterlyUrban 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post hindesky Posted May 29, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted May 29, 2017 Some stone is starting to appear around the entrance area. 18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quietstorm Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 8 hours ago, UtterlyUrban said: I do hope that you are correct. however, in 1 square mile in downtown, we already have 100,000 "high wage office workers" who commute in daily. We also have, what?, 20,000-50,00 "affluent" consumers within a few mile radius. But, nothing except retail crickets........... While I hope that you are correct -- i REALLY hope you are -- personally I now believe that downtown will be an "entertainment" destination, not supported by dry goods retail for many, many more years. Gosh, I hope that i am wrong but I just don't see that it is going to happen. I actually think it will be ok if downtown Houston doesn't develop significant retail. What I've found that distinguishes Houston from places like NYC, Chicago and SF in terms of retail is our lack of public transportation and street grid in our retail district (Uptown). My visitors mistakenly think 'Uptown' (Galleria Area) is Houston's CBD. In my view, the Galleria Area is similar to 5th Ave, Michigan Ave, or Union Square in terms of retail options. If downtown develops into a significant entertainment district to compliment the growing residential and existing corporate sector and developed better transit options to Uptown that would be something. While the Galleria itself is certainly 'walkable', the greater Uptown district has a ways to go in terms of overall mobility and access. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UtterlyUrban Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 Looking at the May 17th posts here and the PDF contained in them, is it fair to assume that greenstreet is essentially now being marketed as an office concept that contains restaraunts and a hotel? There seems to be no effort to attract non-food/entertainment retail in that brochure? wasnt the entire point of selecting Dallas as the new "retail corridor" (and spending millions of tax dollars) to leverage Greenstreet (among others) as a retail location? Has midway now formally moved in a different direction? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumbleweed_Tx Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 retail isn't working there. F21 is doing ok, BCBG closed, Books A Million closed. A shoe store only lasted 6 months. Gatorade had a temporary gym for the super bowl. That's pretty much it for retail there. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston19514 Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 (edited) On 5/29/2017 at 6:42 AM, UtterlyUrban said: Looking at the May 17th posts here and the PDF contained in them, is it fair to assume that greenstreet is essentially now being marketed as an office concept that contains restaraunts and a hotel? There seems to be no effort to attract non-food/entertainment retail in that brochure? wasnt the entire point of selecting Dallas as the new "retail corridor" (and spending millions of tax dollars) to leverage Greenstreet (among others) as a retail location? Has midway now formally moved in a different direction? You were apparently looking at their office concept leasing brochure. Here is their general leasing brochure. Edited May 30, 2017 by Houston19514 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samagon Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 I think it's dreadfully ironic that the guy that has been arguing about how bad fixed guideway mass transit is for Houston is referencing how great downtown Houston was when there was fixed guideway mass transit in Houston! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
102IAHexpress Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 Not sure if you are referencing me? But I never said Downtown Houston was great or not great back then. If I did please point it out. I do think it was definitely booming economically which is great but I wouldn't call living in a packed tenement "great" either. On the totally of that era I have not made a judgement. I only even mentioned it because Bobruss made a claim without evidence that Houston has never had a culture of downtown living. I simply corrected him on that. Houston did have a culture of downtown living. Whether it was great, I don't know. However, you omitted the point I made about downtown Houston's downward spiral of population loss and Downtown Houstonian's exit for the Heights and Montrose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samagon Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 (edited) moving to the Heights and Montrose was made possible by extension of the same electric trolley... I think we can all agree that Downtown Houston hasn't had as many people on the streets since the 1970s and prior. It's not just tax incentives, it's not just the stadiums and parks, it's not just the light rail, and it's not just the retail district on Dallas street. It's all of these things, and other factors that have nothing to do with anything the city is actively doing. At the end of the day, I'm okay with some of my tax money being used for these ventures. I also hope that more of my taxes are used in this way. Edited May 31, 2017 by samagon 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cspwal Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 11 minutes ago, samagon said: moving to the Heights and Montrose was made possible by extension of the same electric trolley... I think we can all agree that Downtown Houston hasn't had as many people on the streets since the 1970s and prior. It's not just tax incentives, it's not just the stadiums and parks, it's not just the light rail, and it's not just the retail district on Dallas street. It's all of these things, and other factors that have nothing to do with anything the city is actively doing. At the end of the day, I'm okay with some of my tax money being used for these ventures. I also hope that more of my taxes are used in this way. Bingo. At the end of the day, that's what you're paying local taxes for - your city to provide services. The difference between living in a small town and a big city is you get an active downtown as part of all this, so I'm also fine for my tax dollars to go to support the downtown infrastructure 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
102IAHexpress Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 1 hour ago, samagon said: moving to the Heights and Montrose was made possible by extension of the same electric trolley... You're giving way too much credit to Houston's original street cars. Do you have any evidence that early Houstonian's moving to the Heights and Montrose was possible only because the electric trolley? Or have you forgotten about the invention of mass produced automobiles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KinkaidAlum Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Houston Heights was founded in 1891. It was incorporated in 1896. Ford's Model T came in 1908. 10,000 were sold that year. No, not in Houston. Globally. But, yeah, the auto is what gave rise to The Heights. Now, Montrose was officially platted in 1911 so the auto might have had more to do with its growth but the initial developer HIGHLIGHTED the street car service along it's main boulevard. But, why pay attention to the actual first advertisements of the development? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samagon Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Correct KinkaidAlum. As well the Heights developer built their own streetcar line to connect to the overall system. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
102IAHexpress Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 37 minutes ago, KinkaidAlum said: Houston Heights was founded in 1891. It was incorporated in 1896. Ford's Model T came in 1908. 10,000 were sold that year. No, not in Houston. Globally. But, yeah, the auto is what gave rise to The Heights. Now, Montrose was officially platted in 1911 so the auto might have had more to do with its growth but the initial developer HIGHLIGHTED the street car service along it's main boulevard. But, why pay attention to the actual first advertisements of the development? Not sure what ANY of that has to do with my post. I NEVER said downtown Houstonian's were leaving downtown for the Heights in 1891 or 1896. If i did please point it out. However i did state that downtown Houston at one point in its history did have lots of people living there, but in time there was a downward spiral of population loss that started in the 1st quarter of the 20th century. Also, I can also state mass produced automobile facts. Fact: Between 1913 and 1927, Ford factories produced more than 15 million Model Ts. Also, like always people on this forum submit reply and read posts later. I never said Houston's early streetcars deserved no credit. If I did please point it out. I only stated that Samagon's post incorrectly gave ALL the credit to Houston's streetcars. If instead Samagon would like to edit his post to say "moving to the Heights and Montrose was made possible in part by extension of the same electric trolley... " then I would have no problem with that statement. But i doubt he will edit it. And I doubt you will provide evidence that automobiles played no role in downtown Houstonians moving to the Heights and Montrose. Also, you will concede I'm sure, that roads existed out in the Heights at the same time if not before street car lines were built to the Heights, correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post tigereye Posted May 31, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted May 31, 2017 16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanjorade Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Reading this forum is getting more and more trying with all the arguing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_cuevas713 Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 I like it tbh 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_cuevas713 Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 4 hours ago, 102IAHexpress said: You're giving way too much credit to Houston's original street cars. Do you have any evidence that early Houstonian's moving to the Heights and Montrose was possible only because the electric trolley? Or have you forgotten about the invention of mass produced automobiles? Actually it wasn't the automobile specifically that pushed people from the city core, it was White Flight. The car was an accessory to this movement but not the cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADCS Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 3 minutes ago, j_cuevas713 said: Actually it wasn't the automobile specifically that pushed people from the city core, it was White Flight. The car was an accessory to this movement but not the cause. White flight wouldn't have happened without cars, freeways and subsidized 30 year notes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_cuevas713 Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 (edited) Just now, ADCS said: White flight wouldn't have happened without cars, freeways and subsidized 30 year notes. So you're telling me if the car hadn't been produced, White Flight wouldn't have happened? I doubt it. It definitely helped push people further away from the core, but Houston was already experiencing a form of White Flight in it's early days. Edited May 31, 2017 by j_cuevas713 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADCS Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, j_cuevas713 said: So you're telling me if the car hadn't been produced, White Flight wouldn't have happened? I doubt it. It definitely helped push people further away from the core, but Houston was already experiencing a form of White Flight in it's early days. Yep. You'd have redlining and neighborhood segregation like in Chicago, New York, Boston and Philadelphia around the turn of the last century, but you wouldn't have the mass exodus to newly manufactured suburbs with big, sprawly single-family houses if everyone was still relying on the trolley to get around, and no one could afford a house because 10-15 year mortgages were too expensive. Edit: you also wouldn't have the leaded gasoline that led to the massive crime wave that convinced many/most white families to pack up and get on out of the city. Edited May 31, 2017 by ADCS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_cuevas713 Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Just now, ADCS said: Yep. You'd have redlining and neighborhood segregation like in Chicago, New York, Boston and Philadelphia around the turn of the last century, but you wouldn't have the mass exodus to newly manufactured suburbs with big, sprawly single-family houses if everyone was still relying on the trolley to get around, and no one could afford a house because 10-15 year mortgages were too expensive. True, good point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
102IAHexpress Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 Getting closer to on topic. How concerned should Downtown be not just about retail but about lunch time restaurants? National consumer habits are not just shaking up traditional retail but also traditional restaurants. Quote The U.S. restaurant industry is in a funk. Blame it on lunch. Americans made 433 million fewer trips to restaurants at lunchtime last year, resulting in roughly $3.2 billion in lost business for restaurants, according to market-research firm NPD Group Inc. It was the lowest level of lunch traffic in at least four decades. While that loss in traffic is a 2% decline from 2015, it is a significant one-year drop for an industry that has traditionally relied on lunch and has had little or no growth for a decade. “I put [restaurant] lunch right up there with fax machines and pay phones,” said Jim Parks, a 55-year-old sales director who used to dine out for lunch nearly every day but found in recent years that he no longer had room for it in his schedule. https://www.wsj.com/articles/going-out-for-lunch-is-a-dying-tradition-1496155377 If this trend continues can we expect to see restaurant closures in Downtown? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cspwal Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 If there are big restraunt closures, it will be places that already aren't open for dinner. Greenstreet has dinner places, but a lot of the places in downtown are still M-F lunch only Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmitch94 Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 (edited) It's not a bad design, just compared to what we first got it is a let down. Edited June 1, 2017 by jmitch94 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobruss Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 (edited) This angle in the photo above must have been taken the morning after Tigereye awoke from passing out on his way home from a concert at The House of Blues, and he decided to take a pic before he got up. Just joking, but I don't mind this angle. My beef was the same as above that they had such an interesting original design and then went kind of bland. The opposite side of the building which is mostly the precast tan stone gets completely lost in the milieu of tan buildings surrounding it. Edited June 1, 2017 by bobruss 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
102IAHexpress Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 On 5/31/2017 at 4:25 PM, cspwal said: If there are big restraunt closures, it will be places that already aren't open for dinner. Greenstreet has dinner places, but a lot of the places in downtown are still M-F lunch only I would say most places in downtown are M-F lunch only. In more bad news for traditional retail as a whole, a new analysis by Credit Suisse predicts that between 20% and 25% of malls in the US will close in the next 5 years. http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-malls-closing-20170531-story.html More reason for the CoH to stay out of tax-payer funded retail districts in downtown. If these consumer buying habits continue, how much longer can Forever 21 last at GreenStreet? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cspwal Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 All the new places at discovery green are all day restraunts The newer stuff around market square, plus Frank's and Roma's stay open for dinner All the steak houses, your pie, the places in greenstreet - they're all open for dinner What isn't are the places in the tunnels and that Chipolte that just taunts me every saturday 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nole23 Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 39 minutes ago, cspwal said: All the new places at discovery green are all day restraunts The newer stuff around market square, plus Frank's and Roma's stay open for dinner All the steak houses, your pie, the places in greenstreet - they're all open for dinner What isn't are the places in the tunnels and that Chipolte that just taunts me every saturday Yea I was just about to say the same thing. I'm out and about all weekend downtown usually and I'm not really sure what's NOT open besides that chipotle, treebeards, Hubcap Grill, and the tunnels. I never understood why that Chipotle doesn't open on the weekends with it being right on Main street near all of the bars. They were open late Superbowl weekend on a Saturday and it was slammed. I get my taco fix from La Calle and its packed really late. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
102IAHexpress Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Nole23 said: Yea I was just about to say the same thing. I'm out and about all weekend downtown usually and I'm not really sure what's NOT open besides that chipotle, treebeards, Hubcap Grill, and the tunnels. Well, the tunnels account for dozens if not hundreds of restaurants not being open in the evening and weekends. But okay, you just want to count the street level restaurants? I can't remember them all but just places I have been to on weekdays not open on weekends: Closed on the weekends: Cafe Express La Palapa Corner Bakery Jason's Deli (both downtown street level locations) Eats Mesquite Grill Lone Start Taco Co Closed on Sundays Pperbacco Pad Thai Azuma I'm sure there are others I have missed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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