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What's up with the Entertainment Industry in Texas?


citykid09

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No kidding, and it is not the first time he's done it. If my posts are going to be constantly altered so that they do not reflect what my thoughts on the matter are, then I am not going to post. And to edit so-called personal attacks while making personal attacks yourself, is worse.

I am sure this post will also be edited out, so that the debating challenged can happily post unintelligible drivel without being called out by me, but no matter. This forum lost its charm long ago, and I have clearly overstayed my welcome. To my friends on the forum, send me an email by PM. To my detractors, enjoy the new, watered down HAIF. To paraphrase the editor, "I think the lesson that citykid is learning here is that the age of debate and intelligence in Houston forums is over."

RedScare out.

This from the man who stated over and over on HAIF that he didn't care what people thought of what he wrote back when the negative rating system was in place. I guess he can dish it out, but can't take it. Sorry I didn't realize your skin was so thin that when someone challenges your bullying you turn opossum.

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I'm new here. How has it deteriorated? Please explain.

He means that the long-time bullies who thought they could get away with anything are learning that they have to play by the same rules as everyone else.

I'm not saying that RedScare is a bully. I always just thought of him as a very strong-minded person who was committed to what he believed. I guess I was mistaken.

Dammit editor, you made Atlas shrug!

Seriously Wayne, you need to get a grip, then issue an immediate public retraction and apology. That really wasn't cool.

For which part?

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In reviewing what I've written above, I can see that I've offended some people and may have crossed a line I don't yet see.

I've sent e-mails to the moderators asking them what they think of it and what action should be taken. I will abide by their decision.

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Sorry, I didn't mean to be offensive. I'm just tired of the "can't do" attitude that pervades, and I don't mind calling people out on it. Most Texans of today are standing on the shoulders of giants. They puff out their chests and talk about how proud they are to be Texans, but what exactly have they contributed to Texas?

I agree, some people on here act like its wrong to come up with new ideas. Then they try to give reason to their arguments by explaining macroeconomics. I created this thread to have a good fun conversation about Texas and the entertainment industry, but some people are taking it too serious.

Update: I just wanted to add this, I almost forgot that a new cable network based out of Houston is about to launch called the Black Broadcasting Network (BBN).

http://www.blackbroadcasting.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=71

http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS119280+26-Mar-2009+PRN20090326

Here is more info:

The Black Broadcasting Network

5315 B. FM 1960 West

Suite 333

Houston, TX 77069

admin@blackbroadcasting.com

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Sorry, I didn't mean to be offensive. I'm just tired of the "can't do" attitude that pervades, and I don't mind calling people out on it. Most Texans of today are standing on the shoulders of giants. They puff out their chests and talk about how proud they are to be Texans, but what exactly have they contributed to Texas?

MY LORD, this is the truth if I ever heard it. At one time it seemed like the attitude in Texas and in Houston in particular was, " throw any idea you can think of at me, and I will show you it can be done". It seems we are at a point in Houston where if anyone suggests so much as a light pole, the first thing out of people's mouths is why it CAN'T BE DONE, and how light poles are a "waste of my tax dollars". Or even worse, "light poles are just an attempt to be like someone else. Houston should be itself". DANG! YES, it does get old. It is that precise type of attitude that too many people in power in Houston have, that has retarded this city to a degree.

Editor, not meaning to make this thing any worse, but I applaud your last few postings on this thread. BRAVO!

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although i'm a little shocked to see our esteemed editor's negative rant about houstonians in general, it did provoke thoughts i hadn't considered; thoughts that add nothing to the discussion of this thread, however.

if red, of all people, should choose to leave over a conversation or even an insult........that's funny as hell. ironic.

editor is entitled to his opinion. if a forum (discussion board) is in and of itself about differing opinions, agreeing & disagreeing, i see no harm in the owner of the site blowing some smoke.

....and about the entertainment industry, NOT IN MY BACK YARD!

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MY LORD, this is the truth if I ever heard it. At one time it seemed like the attitude in Texas and in Houston in particular was, " throw any idea you can think of at me, and I will show you it can be done". It seems we are at a point in Houston where if anyone suggests so much as a light pole, the first thing out of people's mouths is why it CAN'T BE DONE, and how light poles are a "waste of my tax dollars". Or even worse, "light poles are just an attempt to be like someone else. Houston should be itself". DANG! YES, it does get old. It is that precise type of attitude that too many people in power in Houston have, that has retarded this city to a degree.

Editor, not meaning to make this thing any worse, but I applaud your last few postings on this thread. BRAVO!

I don't think anyone is saying that at all. The proponents of this Astrodome boondoggle seem to think that since some people don't think cheapening a historic stadium by prostituting it out to movies studios is a good idea, we also must be anti-progress luddites who prefer kerosene lamps to lightbulbs. That's a strange leap of logic. I think plenty of people have already said this, so the point should be clear at this point, but apparently it's not. Give us a reason other than the cool factor and a handful of rather dubious statistics that suggest giving huge tax breaks to an industry already notoriously averse to this city would offset our costs in any reasonable amount of time. And yes, there does need to be a cause and effect consideration of inviting that industry into town. Will it create jobs? At what cost? Will it boost the economy? At what cost? On a grand scale, those impetuous people who don't give questions like this any consideration are responsible for our current economic morass. As a little reminder to those of you out there who've apparently forgotten, Texas, and specifically Houston, has weathered this recession far better than other states and cities because we've had the foresight not to bum rush into stupid money pits. Nobody doubts it would be cool and neat and wicked awesome to have a giant movie studio in town, but when trying to sell us that cool is enough to put ourselves in a bad fiscal place, you'll find yourself thwarted at every pass.

We'll build if it makes sense. We'll tax abate if it makes sense. We'll spend if it makes sense. But, spending money on shiny crap to impress the Joneses in New York or Chicago or Los Angeles just isn't in the general mindset of most people who live here.

Let me see if I can give a decent example. Let's see... hmmm... When you think of San Antonio, what's the first image that pops into your mind? Is it this?

tower.jpeg

I didn't think so. Despite the amount of money SA spent on that building to make their city appear cool, it's added nothing of value. It doesn't bring in tourists. Aside from the initial construction phase, it didn't add jobs. It didn't boost the economy. It just cost a lot of money that was never fully recouped. And not only that, but now it's no longer even cool. How many people can identify San Antonio's skyline, even with the tower's presence? It was a waste of cash, cash that could have been appropriated to better ends. People in Houston aren't scared of progress, they just don't like wasting money on garbage.

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Let me see if I can give a decent example. Let's see... hmmm... When you think of San Antonio, what's the first image that pops into your mind? Is it this?

tower.jpeg

I didn't think so. Despite the amount of money SA spent on that building to make their city appear cool, it's added nothing of value. It doesn't bring in tourists. Aside from the initial construction phase, it didn't add jobs. It didn't boost the economy. It just cost a lot of money that was never fully recouped. And not only that, but now it's no longer even cool. How many people can identify San Antonio's skyline, even with the tower's presence? It was a waste of cash, cash that could have been appropriated to better ends. People in Houston aren't scared of progress, they just don't like wasting money on garbage.

When San Antonio built that, they had the right idea, but they didn't build grand enough. Look at the space needles in Dallas, Seattle & Toronto, the one in San Antonio doesn't even compare to those. What I'm trying to say is "Go hard, or go home!" Build something that will top or match the quality that others have built or prepare to go unnoticed.

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When San Antonio built that, they had the right idea, but they didn't build grand enough. Look at the space needles in Dallas, Seattle & Toronto, the one in San Antonio doesn't even compare to those. What I'm trying to say is "Go hard, or go home!" Build something that will top or match the quality that others have built or prepare to go unnoticed.

Seattle has the only one of those with any real impact on the identity of the city. The others are replicas, cheap knock-offs of the original. Even though they may stand out in a skyline photo, they make no real statement other than to say, "Look at us, we're unoriginal." Despite that though, did you realize those were all constructed during economic boom times? It's a heck of a lot easier to convince people to spend money when they're not worried about their next meal. This isn't simple-minded NIMBYism, and even if it was, mindless bravado is no way to win over doubters. Go hard or go home? Really? Those earlier Houstonians could afford to be more reckless, but this is a different era. This is no longer a new, young, upstart city with nothing to lose. Houston is well-established now. We can't afford to be reckless with our budget because of some silly aphorisms.

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I think the lesson that citykid is learning here is that the age of dreamers and doers in Houston is over.

There will never again be a massively audacious project like the Astrodome or Johnson Space Center, or Chase Tower again in Houston because anyone with a vision or an idea will be shouted down by the "not my tax dollars" and "show me a study" and "I don't want no outsiders in here" crowd. The age of big Texans with big plans is over. Now Houston is being run by armchair cowboys who drive around in SUVs criticizing other people who actually want to make the city better. They are happy to let Houston slide toward backwater status long as they have a cold beer and memories of their high school football days. What's good enough for them should be good enough for everyone else, because they are the example of the perfect human form in mind and body, and are superior to all.

Citykid, I think you no longer have to wonder why talented people move out of Houston.

King of the Hill has been cancelled. But the do-nothing "yup" alley loafers live on in Houston.

Your way out of line Wayne. Like it or not your the boss here, and giving a shot to the collective body of the city that has supported this forum is not cool. Your the moderator, not the instigator.

I'm not sure what has been edited from Red's posts, but he's a big contributer here and has added alot to the forum. I for one don't want to see him leave.

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Your way out of line Wayne. Like it or not your the boss here, and giving a shot to the collective body of the city that has supported this forum is not cool. Your the moderator, not the instigator.

I'm not sure what has been edited from Red's posts, but he's a big contributer here and has added alot to the forum. I for one don't want to see him leave.

He is not out of line, he was just telling it like it is. Many of the people on here love to tell people what they can't do or what the city can't do. And when someone mentions something thats great thats going on in another city they say that they would like to see it in Houston, the stubborn people on here get mad and give input like: "We don't need urban development," "Its to hot and humid here," "no one will walk," "That would be copying another city," "we don't need rail," "no one will ride it," "its not feasible for Houston."

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<_<

Your just a subtle troll. The fact that some folks have taken the time to explain to you time and time again and the fact that you continue to post as if the previous posts have merely deflected off of you like a duck is proof positive that you're either A.) retarded or B.) a troll. Have some respect for the community and lurk till you have something enlightening or intelligent to post about.

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In reviewing what I've written above, I can see that I've offended some people and may have crossed a line I don't yet see.

I've sent e-mails to the moderators asking them what they think of it and what action should be taken. I will abide by their decision.

It's not just what you've written, it's what you've un-written. It is the combination of actions that seem hypocritical and somewhat tyrannical. It's well within your right--as the owner of HAIF--to be an internet bully, but I do not believe it a wise course of action. If you desire to retain popular, active, and thoughtful contributors to HAIF (such as RedScare), you need to treat them with respect. If they're attacking someone and you feel that censorship is necessary, that's OK as long as the rules are applied evenly. But to target someone and then turn around and commit the same act is intolerable.

I agree, some people on here act like its wrong to come up with new ideas. Then they try to give reason to their arguments by explaining macroeconomics. I created this thread to have a good fun conversation about Texas and the entertainment industry, but some people are taking it too serious.

Actually, I was explaining microeconomics. And I was having fun.

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<_<

Your just a subtle troll. The fact that some folks have taken the time to explain to you time and time again and the fact that you continue to post as if the previous posts have merely deflected off of you like a duck is proof positive that you're either A.) retarded or B.) a troll. Have some respect for the community and lurk till you have something enlightening or intelligent to post about.

^This qualifies as a personal attack. The appropriate response (IMO) is to delete the post outright and to PM the person who posted it, explaining why it was inappropriate. It does not warrant an attack upon millions of Houstonians.

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He is not out of line, he was just telling it like it is. Many of the people on here love to tell people what they can't do or what the city can't do. And when someone mentions something thats great thats going on in another city they say that they would like to see it in Houston, the stubborn people on here get mad and give input like: "We don't need urban development," "Its to hot and humid here," "no one will walk," "That would be copying another city," "we don't need rail," "no one will ride it," "its not feasible for Houston."

What you're saying, then, is that you don't like dissenting opinions and would prefer to live in a fantasy world where everybody agrees with you. That's kind of distrubing, IMO.

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Sorry, I didn't mean to be offensive. I'm just tired of the "can't do" attitude that pervades, and I don't mind calling people out on it. Most Texans of today are standing on the shoulders of giants. They puff out their chests and talk about how proud they are to be Texans, but what exactly have they contributed to Texas?

people would appreciate being called out. deleting posts with no explanations has run off several great posters. danax where are you?

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I agree, some people on here act like its wrong to come up with new ideas. Then they try to give reason to their arguments by explaining macroeconomics. I created this thread to have a good fun conversation about Texas and the entertainment industry, but some people are taking it too serious.

Update: I just wanted to add this, I almost forgot that a new cable network based out of Houston is about to launch called the Black Broadcasting Network (BBN).

http://www.blackbroadcasting.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=71

http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS119280+26-Mar-2009+PRN20090326

Here is more info:

The Black Broadcasting Network

5315 B. FM 1960 West

Suite 333

Houston, TX 77069

admin@blackbroadcasting.com

i just spat a good drink after reading this.

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i just spat a good drink after reading this.

Aside from the goofy factor, it's proof-positive that his entire contention is wrong. BBN is starting here, therefore we now have a piece of the entertainment industrial complex. This whole cathartic intervention by disgruntled long-time HAIFers could have been avoided had citykid just posted his BBN link from the beginning. Thanks, citykid, you are a rabble rouser.

And again, if anyone feels a need to complain about the heavy-handed policing policies practiced here by the mods or editor, I suggest spending some time in the intellectual wastelands that are City-Data's forums. I'm not taking a side on this as I don't have any tenure here, but I think a number of people just need to step out of the fray, take a deep breath and count to twenty. There's no way someone is going to post 10,000+ comments without getting under the skin of the mods on occasion. Everybody just needs to man up and act like an adult.

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And again, if anyone feels a need to complain about the heavy-handed policing policies practiced here by the mods or editor, I suggest spending some time in the intellectual wastelands that are City-Data's forums. I'm not taking a side on this as I don't have any tenure here, but I think a number of people just need to step out of the fray, take a deep breath and count to twenty. There's no way someone is going to post 10,000+ comments without getting under the skin of the mods on occasion. Everybody just needs to man up and act like an adult.

To be clear, the problem is not that rules are enforced too strictly. For instance, I thought for sure that my use of the phrase "licking carpet" from the other day was going to get edited away...but I went with it anyway because the paragraph around it was funny and essentially harmless. Looks like it was permitted, and that's cool. It shows that the admin and moderators do practice discretion.

The real issue is that editor's policing (and only his policing) is not even-handed. He gets easily flustered over certain topics and runs off good informative HAIFers from time to time as a consequence. The classic case occurred where a moderator believed in a 9/11 conspiracy and was discussing that on a thread. He was very much in the minority; I thought it was pretty 'out there', myself, but he clearly wasn't trolling or skirting the Guidelines. Editor came along, got flustered, and started deleting things specifically because he didn't agree with the ideas being presented. This prompted the moderator to protest publicly, then delete his own account.

Since then, editor's MO has mostly been clandestined deletion of certain posts without explanation. I've had whole conversations that mysteriously don't exist anymore, and PMs from people expressing the loss of good content. No explanation. Habeas corpus is more important in the real world than it is on an internet forum, but clearly it is pretty asinine to see that your posts have been abducted in the night (so to speak) and to not know what the charges against them are. To be clear I don't mind playing by the rules, but I need to know what the rules are. This is a complaint that gets brought up frequently among the major contributors.

For his most recent deletion, editor at least expressed a reason. And that's acceptable. But then he went and bloviated all over himself, committing the same infractions as he'd just corrected. What gets read out of this (and his history) is that he views it as OK to persecute people on the basis of their opinions. That stifles intellectualism, which is the key attraction of HAIF.

By virtue of that he owns HAIF, editor is a dictator. And for the most part, he's been a benevolent one, having done a very good job at fostering intellectual discussion and deterring the Chron Forum types. But the caveat to creating such a high class forum is that his audience is more sensitive to persecution. Editor needs to be more cognizant of that.

Btw, Editor, you've told me in the past when we've had our shootouts to 'man up'. Sorry, but that's not a very good reason for anybody to spend their time here. So lets just not go that route.

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For his most recent deletion, editor at least expressed a reason. And that's acceptable. But then he went and bloviated all over himself, committing the same infractions as he'd just corrected. What gets read out of this (and his history) is that he views it as OK to persecute people on the basis of their opinions. That stifles intellectualism, which is the key attraction of HAIF.

But did he really do that? A one-on-one personal attack (that he censored) is different than insulting a faceless, nameless population of a city of 4 million... Saying that "Houston sucks" ... is different from me directly attacking you.

As to the sudden disappearance of posts... yea, it would be nice to know why...

EDIT: To be fair, I could not see what got censored... so I cannot judge fully that it would have qualified as a personal attack along the lines of what I am assuming... but my point still holds.

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But did he really do that? A one-on-one personal attack (that he censored) is different than insulting a faceless, nameless population of a city of 4 million... Saying that "Houston sucks" ... is different from me directly attacking you.

As to the sudden disappearance of posts... yea, it would be nice to know why...

EDIT: To be fair, I could not see what got censored... so I cannot judge fully that it would have qualified as a personal attack along the lines of what I am assuming... but my point still holds.

Again, I don't have a dog in this fight, but to say he fosters intellectualism on this site and has largely been a benevolent dictator, but has committed a grave sin by, on rare occasions, deleting a post or two, is kinda sorta intellectually dishonest. I think there's a few people who've been here so long they've forgotten just how slim the pickings are out in the interporn. They've forgotten that most internet discourse resembles the reasoned writings of 12 year old kids. This site is an oasis in a barren, barren wasteland. Seriously, hop on over to City-Data for a moment and witness the difference.

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Again, I don't have a dog in this fight, but to say he fosters intellectualism on this site and has largely been a benevolent dictator, but has committed a grave sin by, on rare occasions, deleting a post or two, is kinda sorta intellectually dishonest. I think there's a few people who've been here so long they've forgotten just how slim the pickings are out in the interporn. They've forgotten that most internet discourse resembles the reasoned writings of 12 year old kids. This site is an oasis in a barren, barren wasteland. Seriously, hop on over to City-Data for a moment and witness the difference.

I agree wholeheartedly that the rest of the internet, City Data in particular, is full of mouth breathers. That does not, however, make arbitrary enforcement of rules on this forum any more palatable. I fear that HAIF is quickly becoming more like the airline and skyscraper forums--if you're not part of "build everything supershiny and build it now!!" club, you're a townie simpleton who hates progress. Rather like opposing war makes one a terrorist and wanting health reform makes one a socialist. It's just as distasteful as the ass-holia on City Data. Although, sometimes I think those folks are at least a little more honest in their anti-intellectualism.

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But did he really do that? A one-on-one personal attack (that he censored) is different than insulting a faceless, nameless population of a city of 4 million... Saying that "Houston sucks" ... is different from me directly attacking you.

Here's what editor said:

I think the lesson that citykid is learning here is that the age of dreamers and doers in Houston is over.

There will never again be a massively audacious project like the Astrodome or Johnson Space Center, or Chase Tower again in Houston because anyone with a vision or an idea will be shouted down by the "not my tax dollars" and "show me a study" and "I don't want no outsiders in here" crowd. The age of big Texans with big plans is over. Now Houston is being run by armchair cowboys who drive around in SUVs criticizing other people who actually want to make the city better. They are happy to let Houston slide toward backwater status long as they have a cold beer and memories of their high school football days. What's good enough for them should be good enough for everyone else, because they are the example of the perfect human form in mind and body, and are superior to all.

Citykid, I think you no longer have to wonder why talented people move out of Houston.

King of the Hill has been cancelled. But the do-nothing "yup" alley loafers live on in Houston.

Editor mischaracterized comments made by those trying to intellectually rationalize citykid's unfettered visioning. He turned the comments into one-dimensional three-word mockeries of what was carefully communicated over the span of many pages. Right off the bat, that's rather personally insulting to all of us because the ideas we've spent time developing and conveying are being made a mockery of by the owner of a forum that we're patronizing. I can't speak for Red, but to have someone who knows better debasing and mocking our ideas is a far more aggregious offense than some fool who engages in base namecalling.

Editor further concluded on the basis of these mischaracterized comments that the people that made them were typical of a Houstonian mentality, which anyone who has spent a lot of time on here (including editor) knows is just false. He then went on to insult the Houston mentality and by extension to insult us. It certainly seemed that the superiority complex he described was an attack directed at Red, crunch, musicman, myself, and anybody else who dared to attempt to intellectualize citykid's unabashed visioning.

...having said that, I have no idea where certain attacks came from. High school football???

EDIT: To be fair, I could not see what got censored... so I cannot judge fully that it would have qualified as a personal attack along the lines of what I am assuming... but my point still holds.

Hmmm...RedScare claimed: "If my posts are going to be constantly altered so that they do not reflect what my thoughts on the matter are, then I am not going to post." He also used the term "so-called personal attack" to describe what editor deleted. Only Red and editor know what was deleted, but it seems that they do disagree on whether it was actually a personal attack.

Red and I have each experienced cases where our thoughts were edited away or deleted outright without provokation, so I tend to sympathize with Red. It wouldn't surprise me if editor, having gotten all flustered, misinterpreted Red's position and insensitively deleted some sharp-witted comments that cut to the core of the issue.

Still, I'm willing to give editor the benefit of the doubt because there is a place for policing of the forum, and it is entirely plausible that he made the right call on that particular post. My biggest peeve is what editor said.

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I agree with the editor's comments, but all I'll say is that I figured out long ago that you shouldn't say those types of things to people who live in places like this. It just gets them all curious and then a bunch of them will move somewhere interesting but nothing will change for them except now they're dragging down all the people around them in a new location.

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If you ever get bored, take a run over to CD and look up my old nom de internet TexasTheKid. One moderator, some DBag, who erroneously called himself Bowie, deleted about a third of the stuff I wrote. If it was funny, it was deleted. If it disagreed with his politics, it was deleted. If it was even remotely pointed, it was deleted. I once used the word "clown" to describe another poster, and not only was my post deleted, but I was slapped with some ridiculous penalty.

Once, while visiting a friend in Juneau, Alaska, I commented to him that it was a shame the locals didn't take advantage of the beauty that surrounded them as much as I felt I would if I lived there. His response was, "They live with this everyday. They take it for granted and don't even notice it anymore."

Somehow, even though like BryanS I'm not privy to the juicy details of this HAIF gossip fodder, I can't help but interpret this as a couple people making a mountain out of a molehill. You've grown so accustomed to quality discourse you've lost sight of just how rare it is, and are willing to dump it for the smallest damned reasons. BY appearances alone, it looks like RedScare had a I'm-taking-my-ball-and-going-home moment.

By the way, the you wasn't directed at anyone in particular. Even though I've got an infant and don't exactly go out much these days, I still have had a 22 oz Stone IPA and a sixer of Sam and can't be arsed to word that sentence any better. Also, sorry about the pitifully non-existent segues between paragraphs. In my cloudy mind the Alaska anecdote makes sense, though it does look out of place. Whatever.

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If you ever get bored, take a run over to CD and look up my old nom de internet TexasTheKid. One moderator, some DBag, who erroneously called himself Bowie, deleted about a third of the stuff I wrote. If it was funny, it was deleted. If it disagreed with his politics, it was deleted. If it was even remotely pointed, it was deleted. I once used the word "clown" to describe another poster, and not only was my post deleted, but I was slapped with some ridiculous penalty.

Once, while visiting a friend in Juneau, Alaska, I commented to him that it was a shame the locals didn't take advantage of the beauty that surrounded them as much as I felt I would if I lived there. His response was, "They live with this everyday. They take it for granted and don't even notice it anymore."

Somehow, even though like BryanS I'm not privy to the juicy details of this HAIF gossip fodder, I can't help but interpret this as a couple people making a mountain out of a molehill. You've grown so accustomed to quality discourse you've lost sight of just how rare it is, and are willing to dump it for the smallest damned reasons. BY appearances alone, it looks like RedScare had a I'm-taking-my-ball-and-going-home moment.

By the way, the you wasn't directed at anyone in particular. Even though I've got an infant and don't exactly go out much these days, I still have had a 22 oz Stone IPA and a sixer of Sam and can't be arsed to word that sentence any better. Also, sorry about the pitifully non-existent segues between paragraphs. In my cloudy mind the Alaska anecdote makes sense, though it does look out of place. Whatever.

the alaskan parallel is perfectly understandable in your condition. i've made worse parallels without the aid of several good brewskis. your point is well taken.

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absolutely unforgivable. ;)

But unfortunately unavoidable. I knew as I stood there in HEB earlier tonight debating on one hand $8 for a six pack and on the other $13 for a twelve, no matter my decision, it was going to bite me in the backend.

It's all cool. I'm sweating Taaka over here.

I have no idea how to actually spell it, but Montapoluva (although with Cyrillic script) is (in IMHO) the best value vodka available on the market. (Parentheses.)

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