[musicman]

13 just had a story regarding a possible commuter train on 290. the tracks already parallel 290 but they would have to get approval from union pacific. its name would be the eureka commuter rail line. the county commisioner said that they think they could have it running in 18 months whenever approval is granted.

[Trae]

Hopefully it is soon. NW commuters are lucky. Out west, we have no choice. They tore up our lines.

[lockmat]

Are these the same tracks we've been talking about? The ones that UP wasn't very willing to let a commuter train use?

[RedScare]

lockmat, on Wednesday, June 27th, 2007 @ 8:30pm, said:

Are these the same tracks we've been talking about? The ones that UP wasn't very willing to let a commuter train use?

Kind of. UP was stating that the area from Northwest Mall to Downtown is too tight and too congested to use. However, that may have been bluffing to get better terms for track leases. Only the actual negotiaters know for sure.

[musicman]

RedScare, on Wednesday, June 27th, 2007 @ 8:36pm, said:

Kind of. UP was stating that the area from Northwest Mall to Downtown is too tight and too congested to use. However, that may have been bluffing to get better terms for track leases. Only the actual negotiaters know for sure.

concur red. i went to a HGAC meeting a month or two ago to look at some intermodal pics. the METRO guy told me that they hadn't even spoken with UP until UP went public that the tracks north of downtown are too busy to accommodate a commuter setup. is that planning?

[lockmat]

RedScare, on Wednesday, June 27th, 2007 @ 7:36pm, said:

Kind of. UP was stating that the area from Northwest Mall to Downtown is too tight and too congested to use. However, that may have been bluffing to get better terms for track leases. Only the actual negotiaters know for sure.

I guess the only transportation these train commuters will have once they get off are the buses until the Uptown line is built, correct? That is if this is completed in the near future, before the Uptown line.

[RedScare]

musicman, on Wednesday, June 27th, 2007 @ 8:46pm, said:

concur red. i went to a HGAC meeting a month or two ago to look at some intermodal pics. the METRO guy told me that they hadn't even spoken with UP until UP went public that the tracks north of downtown are too busy to accommodate a commuter setup. is that planning?

Maybe they were trying to embarrass METRO. Harris County is the one talking about the commuter rail line. Why didn't the UP guy mention THAT small item? I never took his comment seriously, since negotiaters never go public unless they have a reason.

[mrfootball]

That sounds like good news. So basically, we can startup commuter rail faster than the planned 2011 date because of a common sense solution that went over Metro's head?

[KinkaidAlum]

mrfootball, on Wednesday, June 27th, 2007 @ 11:59pm, said:

That sounds like good news. So basically, we can startup commuter rail faster than the planned 2011 date because of a common sense solution that went over Metro's head?

How is it a common sense solution?

I'll hold off on the METRO bashing and County Praising until I see the following in action;

1) Construction of parking garages or at the very least surface lots to accomodate NW area commuters
2) Announcement of station stops
3) Construction of platforms so people can actually board the trains unless we teach them to hop on like a hobo
4) Construction of at the very least quasi-stations
5) Some sorts of mass transit option for people who don't work downtown or on the Redline
6) Pricing structure
7) The possibility of working with Metro to have bus transfers at NW Mall for Galleria area workers
8) leasing terms from Union Pacific

I am EXCITED by the possibility of commuter rail but I hope we don't turn everything into a METRO vs. County debate at every turn. We need both to work together to create a system that works.

[RedScare]

mrfootball, on Wednesday, June 27th, 2007 @ 10:59pm, said:

That sounds like good news. So basically, we can startup commuter rail faster than the planned 2011 date because of a common sense solution that went over Metro's head?

Not necessarily. METRO is spending a lot of money in a lot of different areas. Harris County has money to spend now. If the County chooses to spend the money now, versus METRO spending it in 10 years, so much the better.

[mrfootball]

As somebody who's seen Metro spend years and tens of millions of our tax dollars on studies and projects that wind up going nowhere...and the half-ass solutions they come up with (ie. single HOV lane that removes several lanes from the freeways rather than more diamond lanes) I think anything that kicks them in the butt is a good thing. While they goof around with trying to shove dangerous trains down busy city streets and neighborhoods that don't want them, then ignore/backburner the single largest area of demand. Commuter Rail. People want it. They want it bad. There'll be no problem meeting the Federal ridership figures with trains running down the major commuter corridors.

This post has been edited by mrfootball: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 at 11:35 PM

[KinkaidAlum]

mrfootball, on Thursday, June 28th, 2007 @ 12:26am, said:

As somebody who's seen Metro spend years and tens of millions of our tax dollars on studies and projects that wind up going nowhere...and the half-ass solutions they come up with (ie. single HOV lane that removes several lanes from the freeways rather than more diamond lanes) I think anything that kicks them in the butt is a good thing.

But, can we blame them?

They've done almost everything with one hand tied behind their backs. I mean, we had a friggin election to STOP building the rail midway through the build out! We had our own U.S. Reps denying us federal funding for our project! We now have crazed loons threatening lawsuits to stop further plans.

Of course, now that developers realize that they NEED commuter rail to make their far-flung communities work (NOT A SINGLE PERSON WILL BUY IN BRIDGELANDS IF THEY SEE 290 AT RUSH HOUR), we probbably wont see the Republicans fighting progress. The County will have a much easier road to hoe without DeLay and Culberson mucking everything up. Additionally, withou the initial light rail line, this proposed commuter rail line would only work for people who live out 290 and work downtown. The light rail line opens up easy transfers to the Med Center, major universities, and even sporting events and cultural options.

[RedScare]

Knock yourself out. Clearly, you have not read what transit experts have said about METRO's HOV lanes...and I have no interest in debating someone who made up his opinion without researching it.

If I've watched METRO longer than you have, does my opinion count more?

[KinkaidAlum]

mrfootball, on Thursday, June 28th, 2007 @ 12:26am, said:

As somebody who's seen Metro spend years and tens of millions of our tax dollars on studies and projects that wind up going nowhere...and the half-ass solutions they come up with (ie. single HOV lane that removes several lanes from the freeways rather than more diamond lanes) I think anything that kicks them in the butt is a good thing. While they goof around with trying to shove dangerous trains down busy city streets and neighborhoods that don't want them, then ignore/backburner the single largest area of demand. Commuter Rail. People want it. They want it bad. There'll be no problem meeting the Federal ridership figures with trains running down the major commuter corridors.

You went back and added quite a bit to your original post.

That said, commuter rail wont be successful on it's own. Sure, it'll be great for people who work downtown, but I'd wager that number is quite small in NW Harris County.

Commuter rail is successful when there is a system in place to take riders where they need to go. That is why it is imperative to build out the light rail system.

Ask yourself this,

If you live in Cypress but go to school at UH, are you more likely to take commuter rail to a light rail transfer so that getting to campus is quite easy or are you going to take commuter rail to downtown and then try to figure out the bus system to get to UH?

[musicman]

mrfootball, on Wednesday, June 27th, 2007 @ 11:26pm, said:

There'll be no problem meeting the Federal ridership figures with trains running down the major commuter corridors.

because the 290 reconstruction is a yrs away, i think that is why harris county is studying the corridor. since traffic is already bad, people would use now it IF IT SAVES THEM TIME. at least that sounds like the county's mindset.

This post has been edited by musicman: Thursday, June 28, 2007 at 1:09 AM

[CDeb]

mrfootball, on Wednesday, June 27th, 2007 @ 11:26pm, said:

As somebody who's seen Metro spend years and tens of millions of our tax dollars on studies and projects that wind up going nowhere...and the half-ass solutions they come up with (ie. single HOV lane that removes several lanes from the freeways rather than more diamond lanes)

Houston's H.O.V. system is routinely praised as one of the best in the nation by transportation researchers and professionals (i.e. people who know a hell of a lot more what they're talking about than you). It is considered a model system and is THE reason why this city's transportation system functions as well as it does without much mass transit.

Quote

While they goof around with trying to shove dangerous trains down busy city streets and neighborhoods that don't want them, then ignore/backburner the single largest area of demand. Commuter Rail. People want it. They want it bad. There'll be no problem meeting the Federal ridership figures with trains running down the major commuter corridors.

Where are we going to go once we get into town? Not every one of us Cypress residents who drives on 290 works downtown! In fact, considering the relative office space share of the various business districts in Houston, I'd say relatively few of us do. We have to have a way to get somewhere besides DT.

This post has been edited by CDeb: Thursday, June 28, 2007 at 7:23 AM

[Ethanra]

"As somebody who's seen Metro spend years and tens of millions of our tax dollars on studies and projects that wind up going nowhere...and the half-ass solutions they come up with (ie. single HOV lane that removes several lanes from the freeways rather than more diamond lanes) I think anything that kicks them in the butt is a good thing. While they goof around with trying to shove dangerous trains down busy city streets and neighborhoods that don't want them, then ignore/backburner the single largest area of demand. Commuter Rail. People want it. They want it bad. There'll be no problem meeting the Federal ridership figures with trains running down the major commuter corridors"

Mr. Football, the know it all dirt aggie...(shaking head). The cities HOV system has been praised as one of the best in the nation. Dangerous drivers can't avoid a train that has the highest rider to mile ridership in the nation. The university line will only add to this number. "Cypress area isn't the highest demand area for rail." Why would you make that up? Also, people in the cypress community that my parents have talk to, mentioned they don't want rail. My parents couldn't understand why and ask them. Two of the popular responses have been, "if you bring public transportation, you know what comes next and their goes our schools." and "Why would I want to pay for public transportation when I have my own car to take me when/where I want."

Isn't commuter rail lines useless untill a # of efficient inner city rail lines are built? If you get the people from the suburbs to the city by commuter rail, how will they get to work at the galleria or greenway plaza?

[mrfootball]

BTW, "Dirt Aggie" went to UT undergrad, nimrod (shaking head). As for Houston's brilliant HOV and Metro's superior planning...I think common sense wins this argument. If it were so great, why don't you see everyone doing it? Why haven't more cities emulated Houston's brilliance? Only tortured logic could surmise that a single managed lane is better than 3 or 4 lanes (which could be used as managed diamond lanes) that were removed from the freeway to make one Houston-style HOV centerlane with concrete barriers.

This post has been edited by mrfootball: Thursday, June 28, 2007 at 8:33 AM

[Ethanra]

mrfootball, on Thursday, June 28th, 2007 @ 8:04am, said:

"Dirt Aggie" went to UT, nimrod.

I always thought I saw that you went to Tech... my mistake. I do have to say, most UT grads are very sharp and on top of issues. Like I said "most grads" - did you really use the word "nimrod"?

[jt16]

Ethanra, on Thursday, June 28th, 2007 @ 8:29am, said:

I always thought I saw that you went to Tech... my mistake. I do have to say, most UT grads are very sharp and on top of issues. Like I said "most grads" - did you really use the word "nimrod"?

Where is your schooling? Because you certainly are not on top of the issues. In fact you write freely and continually show your ignorance. The diamond lanes have been implemented for years in other major metropolitan cities. Houston's single HOV walled lanes are routinely criticized by civil engineers as a massive waste of space. That's why Houston is finally moving to diamond lanes on new freeway construction (i.e. Katy Freeway). To state that Houston's HOV system is some sort of model would be laughable, if you really didn't believe it.

[RedScare]

http://ops.fhwa.dot....uston/index.htm

[jt16]

Worked well in 1970, but why have one lane where two or three will easily fit? Texas, California and other states are clearly moving toward HOT lanes (to make money) and diamond lanes (to move more people).

Back to the original topic, I know lots of people that drive in to downtown along 290. I can't say statistically what the numbers would look like, but I think we'd be surprised how many people actually work downtown and live along the 290 corridor. The problem is how many people would even use the commuter rail? We have a deeply entrenched car culture here in Houston that won't change over night.

[musicman]

jt16, on Thursday, June 28th, 2007 @ 9:11am, said:

The problem is how many people would even use the commuter rail? We have a deeply entrenched car culture here in Houston that won't change over night.

It is all about saving time. if it saves time, people will use it. that's why the HOV system is so successful.

[MidtownCoog]

Quote

As somebody who's seen Metro spend years and tens of millions of our tax dollars on studies and projects that wind up going nowhere...and the half-ass solutions they come up with

Do you live in Houston? Metro is doing a pretty good job if you ask me. They move a ton of people everyday and some of it, like the commuter bus service, is excellent.

[CDeb]

jt16, on Thursday, June 28th, 2007 @ 8:49am, said:

Where is your schooling? Because you certainly are not on top of the issues. In fact you write freely and continually show your ignorance. The diamond lanes have been implemented for years in other major metropolitan cities. Houston's single HOV walled lanes are routinely criticized by civil engineers as a massive waste of space. That's why Houston is finally moving to diamond lanes on new freeway construction (i.e. Katy Freeway). To state that Houston's HOV system is some sort of model would be laughable, if you really didn't believe it.

Context. Every city is not the same. What works well in some cities will not work as well in others.

The Katy Freeway managed lanes will be walled off closer into the city (inside the SHT, I believe).

[mrfootball]

I agree with JT that HOT lanes and Diamond lanes are the way to go.

As for commuter rail, I believe there would be demand. A good comparison might be to look at rail ridership from the North Dallas suburbs. I agree that I don't think Cypress residents want buses running around here, but I do think they'd be receptive to commuter rail.

Me, I have degrees from UT and Tech. Love them both. Great schools.

Ethan what about you?

[RedScare]

jt16, on Thursday, June 28th, 2007 @ 9:11am, said:

Worked well in 1970, but why have one lane where two or three will easily fit? Texas, California and other states are clearly moving toward HOT lanes (to make money) and diamond lanes (to move more people).

Back to the original topic, I know lots of people that drive in to downtown along 290. I can't say statistically what the numbers would look like, but I think we'd be surprised how many people actually work downtown and live along the 290 corridor. The problem is how many people would even use the commuter rail? We have a deeply entrenched car culture here in Houston that won't change over night.

It actually began in 1979. The study shows the evolution of the HOV lanes. HOT lanes, which Houston is in the process of implementing, is the next evolution. HOT lanes are direct descendants of Houston's original HOV lanes. While Diamond Lanes are much cheaper to install (paint diamonds on the road, install some signs, and you are done), the resistance to them appears to be that the constant lane changing by cheaters moving into and out of the Diamond Lanes will increase congestion and cause accidents.

As for usage, one can look at Houston's much praised Park&Ride system to get an idea of commuter rail ridership. Currently, 290 HOV usage is pegged at about 21,000 people per day. Some are in carpools, and likely will stay in carpools. Some solo drivers would likely take the train due to "rail bias". METRO would likely discontinue Park&Ride service on 290 once the commuter rail starts. The rail would not be new commuter service to NW Harris County. It would simply replace Park&Rides. This is another reason METRO is in no hurry to start commuter rail first.

[musicman]

CDeb, on Thursday, June 28th, 2007 @ 9:22am, said:

The Katy Freeway managed lanes will be walled off closer into the city (inside the SHT, I believe).

i believe the toll lanes will be walled off while the diamond lanes won't.

[CDeb]

RedScare, on Thursday, June 28th, 2007 @ 9:24am, said:

METRO would likely discontinue Park&Ride service on 290 once the commuter rail starts. The rail would not be new commuter service to NW Harris County. It would simply replace Park&Rides. This is another reason METRO is in no hurry to start commuter rail first.

Exactly.

More people would use existing service if they could go more places once they got to Houston.

[CDeb]

jt16, on Thursday, June 28th, 2007 @ 9:11am, said:

Worked well in 1970, but why have one lane where two or three will easily fit? Texas, California and other states are clearly moving toward HOT lanes (to make money) and diamond lanes (to move more people).

Back to the original topic, I know lots of people that drive in to downtown along 290. I can't say statistically what the numbers would look like, but I think we'd be surprised how many people actually work downtown and live along the 290 corridor. The problem is how many people would even use the commuter rail? We have a deeply entrenched car culture here in Houston that won't change over night.

HOT lanes are merely the next evolution of HOV lanes. Same setup, different rules is all.

Barrier separated lanes are more operationally efficient (operational efficiency being their raison d'etre) than diamond lanes. You premise that diamond lanes are better merely because other cities are building them ignores other factors that may be at work. Other cities have less experience with managed lanes, therefore the public reacts differently to them. Other cities have more costly ROW, so space is a bigger issue for them. Context. Don't ignore context.

There are plenty of us civil engineers who would disagree with you

[urbancowboy]

I took the bus from the NW Station P&R. The busses left every 5 minutes at one point in the morning and they were always packed. So I am sure that commuter rail will work on this route. However, 18 months....I wouldn't hold my breath.

[jt16]

CDeb, on Thursday, June 28th, 2007 @ 10:09am, said:

HOT lanes are merely the next evolution of HOV lanes. Same setup, different rules is all.

Barrier separated lanes are more operationally efficient (operational efficiency being their raison d'etre) than diamond lanes. You premise that diamond lanes are better merely because other cities are building them ignores other factors that may be at work. Other cities have less experience with managed lanes, therefore the public reacts differently to them. Other cities have more costly ROW, so space is a bigger issue for them. Context. Don't ignore context.

There are plenty of us civil engineers who would disagree with you

I can't match your engineering expertise, as I'm not an engineer.

But back at you. Context. My premise is not based strictly on other cities, but California and Texas (including Houston) moving to diamond lanes as originally stated. These were my main examples in the earlier post, and both are experienced in traffic management.

I'm sure like all discussions, there are civil engineers that can make good arguments in favor of both approaches.

mrfootball, on Thursday, June 28th, 2007 @ 9:23am, said:

I agree with JT that HOT lanes and Diamond lanes are the way to go.

As for commuter rail, I believe there would be demand. A good comparison might be to look at rail ridership from the North Dallas suburbs. I agree that I don't think Cypress residents want buses running around here, but I do think they'd be receptive to commuter rail.

Me, I have degrees from UT and Tech. Love them both. Great schools.

Ethan what about you?

People that attended one of the major universities in Texas generally have a great deal of respect for each other and their universities. It's usually the lesser known schools that have some sort of inferiority complex in regards to schools. I attended Texas A&M and have lots of friends that attended UT, Tech, Rice, TCU, etc. There's good natured ribbing, but not one of them actually believe the baseless drivel that some of these posters truly believe.

This post has been edited by jt16: Thursday, June 28, 2007 at 10:36 AM

[MidtownCoog]

As someone who now drives the HOV daily I have no desire to see them changed.

It's one of the perks you get for working downtown. Don't mess up a good thing.