New public works head notes rail role in congestion relief

[Slick Vik]

 

 

Less than two hours into his first regional transportation planning meeting, Dale Rudick sounded a different note than those of his predecessors as director of Houston’s Public Works and Engineering Department.

 

It happened while the regional Transportation Policy Council was discussing short-term congestion relief along U.S. 59 between the Sam Houston Tollway and downtown Houston.  Rudick questioned why the Gulf Coast Rail District, the agency plotting possibilities for commuter trains in the area, wasn’t included in the conversation.

 

“I find that kind of strange,” Rudick said, noting that easing congestion on the freeway might require providing more options to stay off it.

 

Rudick said officials have to look beyond freeway improvements.

 

“A lot has happened in the culture of our community,” he said.

 

 

http://blog.chron.com/thehighwayman/2014/08/new-public-works-head-notes-rail-role-in-congestion-relief/

[august948]

And the answer to his question was...?

[Slick Vik]

The answer is that officials aren't interested in including rail, it doesn't fit their best interests ($$$)

Among the choices officials are imposing higher toll prices during peak times, redesigning key street connections with the freeway to eliminate delays at entrance and exit ramps, limiting when some entrance and exit ramps are open to better control traffic, and moving more quickly to re-open lanes after traffic accidents.

[mollusk]

As the article notes, the meeting in question was about short term fixes, and commuter rail is more about the long term.

 

Still, it really doesn't have to be an either/or proposition.  Heaven knows we've got plenty of population to support whatever goes in on the southwest corridor.

[august948]

The answer is that officials aren't interested in including rail, it doesn't fit their best interests ($$$)

Among the choices officials are imposing higher toll prices during peak times, redesigning key street connections with the freeway to eliminate delays at entrance and exit ramps, limiting when some entrance and exit ramps are open to better control traffic, and moving more quickly to re-open lanes after traffic accidents.

 

I was more interested in what the others at the meeting had to say in response to his question.  The article leaves that completely out.  An oversight?  Poor reporting?  Maybe the Dug Begley got the info second-hand?  I'm sure if the question was asked someone gave a reason, not a knee-jerk reaction.

 

[DNAguy]

As the article notes, the meeting in question was about short term fixes, and commuter rail is more about the long term.

 

Still, it really doesn't have to be an either/or proposition.  Heaven knows we've got plenty of population to support whatever goes in on the southwest corridor.

 

What about 'free' HOV use of ALL tollroads. Easy fix. Incentives carpooling. Reduces congestion.

 

[crickets]

 

That's what I thought. They're not serious.

[BigFootsSocks]

What about 'free' HOV use of ALL tollroads. Easy fix. Incentives carpooling. Reduces congestion.

 

[crickets]

 

That's what I thought. They're not serious.

Because that's not what they're built for and would require a lot of work to section off the "HOV" lane into a standalone lane somewhere in the middle of the right-of-way, as well as figuring out a way to keep one-person cars and carpooling cars separate at the toll gates. This is not a good solution nor does it make any sense as this is not the purpose of toll roads.

[DNAguy]

Because that's not what they're built for and would require a lot of work to section off the "HOV" lane into a standalone lane somewhere in the middle of the right-of-way, as well as figuring out a way to keep one-person cars and carpooling cars separate at the toll gates. This is not a good solution nor does it make any sense as this is not the purpose of toll roads.

 

Not what they're built for? Would require a lot of work?

 

It's no harder than taking a current lane and making it as HOV and administering it as they do the Katy HOT.

 

The purpose of a toll road is to reduce congestion and provide a way of getting from A to B.

 

It's not there to make $ or collect tolls. Collecting tolls is a way to PAY the bonds of said road or PAY for the maintenance. 

 

The powers at be can decide to incentivize more carpooling by making use of all area toll roads free for those w/ 2 or 3+ ppl inside. They may have to increase the price individual cars pay to make up for it. I never said that they couldn't.

 

But if we are asking the question on how we can utilize the lanes we have now w/ limited capital and reduce congestion, then we need to discuss having 'free' HOV lanes on all area tollways.

 

This isn't rocket science.

 

The answer isn't always to purchase ROW, tear down businesses, and build more lanes. 

[BigFootsSocks]

Now you're trying to create a scenario that involves two different agencies. METRO is not fast, it took them over a year to extend the 290 HOV a few miles to Barker Cypress. It would a significant amount of work to create an HOV for only half of the Beltway.

You're only half right about that congestion point. Freeways and tollways are built to relieve congestion. It just so happens in the current economic climate the only viable option are tollways.

Actually no, HCTRA is a business and builds these roads to serve two purposes; relieve congestion AND make money.

Building HOV lanes in no way relieves congestion. That doesn't make any sense at all. The HOV extension on 290 didn't help traffic. The Katy Tolls don't suddenly make I-10 free of congestion. They simply make it quicker to get home with a fee.

This isn't rocket science nor any science for that matter. Science implies putting rational thinking and logic behind the statements we claim.

As you know and read, I didn't say I advocated for that. The solution this city needs is a long term one and that answer is commuter rail. Like you said, we can't keep widening freeways forever...unless they decide to build up...

[august948]

Actually no, HCTRA is a business and builds these roads to serve two purposes; relieve congestion AND make money.

 

 

Actually, HCTRA is part of the Harris County Government.  It's not a business.

 

 

The Toll Road Authority was created by Harris County Commissioners Court in 1983 after Harris County voters approved a referendum to release $900 million in bonds to construct toll roads in the rapidly growing Greater Houston Metropolitan area. The Toll Road Authority, a division of Harris County's Public Infrastructure Department, is an Enterprise Fund of Harris County and relies on charges from users of the toll road system to fund operations, debt service, and future projects. Organized under the Public Infrastructure Department's Executive Director, Arthur L. Storey, Jr., the Toll Road Authority is led by its Director, Gary K.Trietsch

https://www.hctra.org/about/?CSRT=1906192185674684023

[DNAguy]

HOV lanes doen't relieve traffic? So HOV lanes across the world are a scam / one huge conspiracy? 

 

 

[Slick Vik]

You can only build up so much also

[BigFootsSocks]

HOV lanes do not relieve traffic congestion as much as many other things. Read what a said and quit trying to pick it apart for what you only want to see. Your claims about traffic flow in this city are most of the time pretty far off balance and are usually completely wrong. I get it, you hate tolls, but you need to learn a bit more about traffic flow and the highway system before spouting nonsense.

[Luminare]

pffft HOV relieves congestion?! lol. Tell that to everyone that goes home on I-10 and 290! I actually like toll roads, but never really understood the logic of HOV. Honestly HOV isn't what it's cracked up to be. I mean why do you think they are changing the nomenclature to "managed lanes". HOV doesn't really inspire confidence in relieving anything and because of that....i never think about it in regards to transportation solutions.

[IronTiger]

I definitely think that HOV/HOT lanes reduce congestion more than people realize. If commuter trains suddenly appeared tomorrow, people would likely still be complaining about congestion (assuming that a sudden rush of people didn't ride the train for sheer novelty value). The point is, congestion isn't going to go away very easily without a massive population drop or some sort of revolutionary technology (semi-autonomous vehicles)

[totheskies]

I definitely think that HOV/HOT lanes reduce congestion more than people realize. If commuter trains suddenly appeared tomorrow, people would likely still be complaining about congestion (assuming that a sudden rush of people didn't ride the train for sheer novelty value). The point is, congestion isn't going to go away very easily without a massive population drop or some sort of revolutionary technology (semi-autonomous vehicles)

 

I agree that HOV/HOT lanes reduce congestion, especially when they are well-designed like those on the Katy Freeway.  But do they work as well as an all-bus lane or all-truck lane would?  

 

What Houston is failing at right is refusing to look into the city's future.  We're complaining about congestion now, but this area is still growing.  What are we going to do when we hit 8 million people?  10 million people??  Those numbers are coming much sooner than people realize, and our 1-or-2 solution strategy cannot handle the present volume, much less deal with those moving here soon.  We need rail.  We need HOV/HOT lanes.  We need expanded bus coverage.  We need better freeway.  

 

We need it ALL.  

[Montrose1100]

I have a short term fix. Build a 10-12 foot concrete wall where the dividers are. This will eliminate rubber necking and only cause one of the directions of traffic to slow down/come to a complete stop.

 

As I drive more and more for work, small fender benders that happen on the shoulders, not blocking any lanes, cause both sides of the freeway to slow down to a snail's pace (if not a complete stop). If you can't fix their driving behavior, give them a cone of shame. Build a wall so they won't even see it.

[IronTiger]

I definitely think that rail is needed for the future (as well as widened freeways and all that), but I'm not sure what the best course of rail is. How far should light rail go? If the University Line gets done, they should use the remaining Westpark ROW for light rail. How far should commuter rail go? Where should the transfer spots be? I feel like light rail should reach the Beltway in most directions (not just the loop) while commuter rail should stretch to the entire Houston-centered "solar system", with lines going out to College Station (unless HSR goes through, which it probably will end up doing), Lake Jackson, Beaumont, Galveston.

 

Undoubtedly, others will disagree on where I think they should go. But do we need rail? Yes. Better roads? Yes. Wider freeways that make sense? Yes. 

 

I think that if you're forward-thinking in terms of congestion futures, rejecting freeway widening and HOT/HOV lanes is foolish (until they've reached their maximum capacity--realistically, Katy Freeway is the widest they come)

[kylejack]

pffft HOV relieves congestion?! lol. Tell that to everyone that goes home on I-10 and 290! 

 

Now imagine how much more congestion there would be if every car carrying 3 people was instead 3 cars each carrying one person. 

[DNAguy]

HOV lanes do not relieve traffic congestion as much as many other things. Read what a said and quit trying to pick it apart for what you only want to see. Your claims about traffic flow in this city are most of the time pretty far off balance and are usually completely wrong. I get it, you hate tolls, but you need to learn a bit more about traffic flow and the highway system before spouting nonsense.

 

Don't get all butt hurt now. I didn't besmirch your name b/c you thought HCTRA was a business.

 

I never said I hate tolls. Usage fees for roads are probably a far more equitable way to pay for roads than a gas tax that never gets increased. They are incredibly regressive when you don't really supply an alternative like effective public transportation. That's a different animal, though.

 

I have spoken out against certain toll projects, yes (288 tolls). I did this not b/c they were tolls per se, but b/c I felt that there was a better toll project (TX 35).

 

What I dislike is that we've currently got an incredibly convoluted transportation strategy that has many different actors that all seem to be competing w/ one another rather than working to one common goal.

 

HCTRA served a purpose when TXDOT was constitutionally prohibited from building tollways. What exact purpose do they serve now? Why have a local agency competing w/ a state agency for a purpose they are both tasked to provide? Why is METRO a wholly separate agency from HCTRA when they're aiming at what would seem to be the same goal (local transportation). 

 

I say that high occupancy vehicles should get the same treatment on all highways in Houston regardless of what agency built them. Why is there so much antagonism to this idea?

[DNAguy]

I have a short term fix. Build a 10-12 foot concrete wall where the dividers are. This will eliminate rubber necking and only cause one of the directions of traffic to slow down/come to a complete stop.

 

As I drive more and more for work, small fender benders that happen on the shoulders, not blocking any lanes, cause both sides of the freeway to slow down to a snail's pace (if not a complete stop). If you can't fix their driving behavior, give them a cone of shame. Build a wall so they won't even see it.

 

Where have I seen this concept b/f........

 

 

Eureka!

 

What to call them?.... Drive-blinders? 

[Slick Vik]

I think ridership of a train in HOV lanes would be high because the people on HOV now would take it and also and single drivers the biggest group that causes congestion.

[IronTiger]

I think ridership of a train in HOV lanes would be high because the people on HOV now would take it and also and single drivers the biggest group that causes congestion.

That would only work if the trains went the same places drivers did, which isn't necessarily true. Unless of course, you wanted to build new managed lanes, which in that case, you would be better off building the train separately. Again, both trains and managed lanes have their place in helping relieve congestion. It isn't an either/or scenario.

[BigFootsSocks]

Don't get all butt hurt now. I didn't besmirch your name b/c you thought HCTRA was a business.

I never said I hate tolls. Usage fees for roads are probably a far more equitable way to pay for roads than a gas tax that never gets increased. They are incredibly regressive when you don't really supply an alternative like effective public transportation. That's a different animal, though.

I have spoken out against certain toll projects, yes (288 tolls). I did this not b/c they were tolls per se, but b/c I felt that there was a better toll project (TX 35).

What I dislike is that we've currently got an incredibly convoluted transportation strategy that has many different actors that all seem to be competing w/ one another rather than working to one common goal.

HCTRA served a purpose when TXDOT was constitutionally prohibited from building tollways. What exact purpose do they serve now? Why have a local agency competing w/ a state agency for a purpose they are both tasked to provide? Why is METRO a wholly separate agency from HCTRA when they're aiming at what would seem to be the same goal (local transportation).

I say that high occupancy vehicles should get the same treatment on all highways in Houston regardless of what agency built them. Why is there so much antagonism to this idea?

Ok so you took one single point of my argument that someone else proved wrong yet completely ignored everything else? Don't get so defensive, I'm not mad or butthurt. I'm play devils advocate here because this can't just be a chamber room of circle jerks. HOV lanes provide MINOR traffic relief rather than a bigger/better solution.

Didn't mean to offend just pointing out the flaws in your argument which is the whole point if thus board; civil discussion. I'm not advocating for tolls because I too dislike them. Remember that. However, tolls are the only viable option for TXDOT unless they somehow get more funding, which if you vote for Proposition 1 in November, they'll get $1.6 billion in funding for roads too not be used for tolls.

[Slick Vik]

That would only work if the trains went the same places drivers did, which isn't necessarily true. Unless of course, you wanted to build new managed lanes, which in that case, you would be better off building the train separately. Again, both trains and managed lanes have their place in helping relieve congestion. It isn't an either/or scenario.

Drivers go to places of employment. If rail went to galleria, downtown, greenway plaza, medical center on our current rail system, hook that with a commuter rail and I'm confident that would help reduce congestion.

[IronTiger]

Drivers go to places of employment. If rail went to galleria, downtown, greenway plaza, medical center on our current rail system, hook that with a commuter rail and I'm confident that would help reduce congestion.

Yeah, but that's not what you said: you said replacing the HOV/HOT lane with rail, and that's not going to work because:

 

- not all HOV/HOT lane drivers go to places that you mentioned

- not all HOV/HOT lane drivers would want to ride on a train and some people just prefer driving

- converting a HOV/HOT lane to rail would require tons of infrastructure improvements, only the I-10 line is built to hold light rail and even then a lot of work would need to be done on building stations

- I-10 I could see the inner lanes being converted to rail, but because of the agreements made in Katy Freeway, new stations would have to be built, and METRO would have to buy or long-term lease them.

[august948]

Where have I seen this concept b/f........

 

 

Eureka!

 

What to call them?.... Drive-blinders? 

 

Call it GoJo...

 

 

[august948]

Drivers go to places of employment. If rail went to galleria, downtown, greenway plaza, medical center on our current rail system, hook that with a commuter rail and I'm confident that would help reduce congestion.

 

 

Better to just run more commuter buses in the HOV/HOT lanes.  Establish a network of interconnected HOV/HOT lanes on all the area freeways and run buses to and from major employment centers/edge cities and then let local transport take them to the final destinations if not nearby the park & ride station.

 

[Slick Vik]

Yeah, but that's not what you said: you said replacing the HOV/HOT lane with rail, and that's not going to work because:

- not all HOV/HOT lane drivers go to places that you mentioned

- not all HOV/HOT lane drivers would want to ride on a train and some people just prefer driving

- converting a HOV/HOT lane to rail would require tons of infrastructure improvements, only the I-10 line is built to hold light rail and even then a lot of work would need to be done on building stations

- I-10 I could see the inner lanes being converted to rail, but because of the agreements made in Katy Freeway, new stations would have to be built, and METRO would have to buy or long-term lease them.

That is what I said eliminate HOV and concert to rail plus finish university and uptown lines.

[IronTiger]

That is what I said eliminate HOV and concert to rail plus finish university and uptown lines.

Ok, so you were wanting to eliminate the lanes. But...why? Both relieve congestion, both serve different functions.